Christian Discussion Thread XII: Soter? I hardly know her!

[Salus Maior]

Christ died not for the people of 1st century AD Judea, but for all people for all times.

Yes, but none of us were alive back then. Holding us all responsible for Christ's death would be untrue.

You're missing the metaphysical/spiritual significance of Christ's death.

[Tarsonis]

Christ died not for the people of 1st century AD Judea, but for all people for all times.

Yes, but none of us were alive back then. Holding us all responsible for Christ's death would be untrue.

Christ did for our sins as much as he died for the sins of Uglug, Master of Spear and Fire

[North Washington Republic]

Out of curiosity, does your church mention the harrowing of hell in the apostle’s creed?

[New Visayan Islands]

Out of curiosity, does your church mention the harrowing of hell in the apostle’s creed?

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.

Pretty sure the underlined is answer enough, given that it is a translation of the original Latin ("descendit ad inferos").

[Xmara]

Out of curiosity, does your church mention the harrowing of hell in the apostle’s creed?

Yes

For the record, I'm Presbyterian

[North Washington Republic]

Out of curiosity, does your church mention the harrowing of hell in the apostle’s creed?

Yes

For the record, I'm Presbyterian

As in, they say “he descended into hell”, as in he went to hell to save the souls that were there before his death.

[Tarsonis]

Yes

For the record, I'm Presbyterian

As in, they say “he descended into hell”, as in he went to hell to save the souls that were there before his death.

kicked the doors open, guns blazing

[Kowani]

Yes

For the record, I'm Presbyterian

As in, they say “he descended into hell”, as in he went to hell to save the souls that were there before his death.

this seems to me radically unfair

[Tarsonis]

As in, they say “he descended into hell”, as in he went to hell to save the souls that were there before his death.

this seems to me radically unfair

how's that?

[Kowani]

this seems to me radically unfair

how's that?

heaven was closed to people before jesus, no?

[Tarsonis]

how's that?

heaven was closed to people before jesus, no?

indeed.

[Kowani]

heaven was closed to people before jesus, no?

indeed.

do you not see a problem with this

[Major-Tom]

indeed.

do you not see a problem with this

It is a bit odd (and a reminder of why biblical literalism is whack), though to the best of what little theological knowledge I have left, the Catholic Church used to teach that those who were "righteous" that died before Jesus went to a sort of "waiting room." I'm oversimplifying, but it was a sort of non-hellish limbo-land to get used to until Jesus came. Abraham's something, I forget.

One can only hope they had comfy seating and diverse food selections.

[Tarsonis]

indeed.

do you not see a problem with this

Solomon certainly did.

"9 All this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate one does not know. Everything that confronts them 2 is vanity, since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of all are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."


Really though, no, because Sheol is like the Greek underworld. There's levels. The Hell/Heaven dichotomy doesn't really work for this analysis.

[Kowani]

do you not see a problem with this

It is a bit odd (and a reminder of why biblical literalism is whack), though to the best of what little theological knowledge I have left, the Catholic Church used to teach that those who were "righteous" that died before Jesus went to a sort of "waiting room." I'm oversimplifying, but it was a sort of non-hellish limbo-land to get used to until Jesus came. Abraham's something, I forget.

One can only hope they had comfy seating and diverse food selections.

yeah, the uh
limbo of patriarchs, i think?

do you not see a problem with this

Solomon certainly did.

"9 All this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate one does not know. Everything that confronts them 2 is vanity,[a] since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil,[b] to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of all are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."


Really though, no, because Sheol is like the Greek underworld. There's levels. The Hell/Heaven dichotomy doesn't really work for this analysis.

oh there's layers
that makes it all better
you're not all in the lake of fire, some of you are just sitting in the void for the next couple thousand years because the "good" ending is physically closed off to you for having the misfortune to be born early
whoops, my bad

[Salus Maior]

oh there's layers
that makes it all better
you're not all in the lake of fire, some of you are just sitting in the void for the next couple thousand years because the "good" ending is physically closed off to you for having the misfortune to be born early
whoops, my bad

Sin separated humanity from God, and everyone had (and has) suffered from that, but as I understand it one's experience in Sheol could also be altered by whether one's living relatives were praying for them. Regardless, Sheol has been abolished.

[Saiwania]

Hong Xiuquan's story speaks to me more than most others I've come across, its hugely impressive what he got done- even if his war failed. If the source material and the wider movement wasn't completely dead, I might consider becoming a Taiping-ist. I'm sure the Heavenly Kingdom he'd of founded would've proved glorious, even if at odds with the official Christian religions on minor details.

[Tarsonis]

It is a bit odd (and a reminder of why biblical literalism is whack), though to the best of what little theological knowledge I have left, the Catholic Church used to teach that those who were "righteous" that died before Jesus went to a sort of "waiting room." I'm oversimplifying, but it was a sort of non-hellish limbo-land to get used to until Jesus came. Abraham's something, I forget.

One can only hope they had comfy seating and diverse food selections.

yeah, the uh
limbo of patriarchs, i think?

Solomon certainly did.

"9 All this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God; whether it is love or hate one does not know. Everything that confronts them 2 is vanity,[a] since the same fate comes to all, to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil,[b] to the clean and the unclean, to those who sacrifice and those who do not sacrifice. As are the good, so are the sinners; those who swear are like those who shun an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that happens under the sun, that the same fate comes to everyone. Moreover, the hearts of all are full of evil; madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."


Really though, no, because Sheol is like the Greek underworld. There's levels. The Hell/Heaven dichotomy doesn't really work for this analysis.

oh there's layers
that makes it all better
you're not all in the lake of fire, some of you are just sitting in the void for the next couple thousand years because the "good" ending is physically closed off to you for having the misfortune to be born early
whoops, my bad

Uh, no. That's not really how it works. You're looking at this through a modern Christian lens and that's going to give you a very incorrect perception of the nature of sheol, how it operated etc.

The lake of fire is an allegorical description of the pain of being separated from God, it's purely unique to the Christian soteriological idiom. To understand sheol you have to unpack ancient Hebrew/Israelite cosmology and soteriology and frankly that's like a 4 day lecture.

[Salus Maior]

Hong Xiuquan's story speaks to me more than most others I've come across, its hugely impressive what he got done- even if his war failed. If the source material and the wider movement wasn't completely dead, I might consider becoming a Taiping-ist. I'm sure the Heavenly Kingdom he'd of founded would've proved glorious, even if at odds with the official Christian religions on minor details.

It's not really a minor detail to claim to be Jesus' brother.

But yeah, it figures that you'd like them.

[Salus Maior]

The lake of fire is an allegorical description of the pain of being separated from God, it's purely unique to the Christian soteriological idiom. To understand sheol you have to unpack ancient Hebrew/Israelite cosmology and soteriology and frankly that's like a 4 day lecture.

Sum it up inadequately in four words

[Suriyanakhon]

Hong Xiuquan's story speaks to me more than most others I've come across, its hugely impressive what he got done- even if his war failed. If the source material and the wider movement wasn't completely dead, I might consider becoming a Taiping-ist. I'm sure the Heavenly Kingdom he'd of founded would've proved glorious, even if at odds with the official Christian religions on minor details.

It's not really a minor detail to claim to be Jesus' brother.

But yeah, it figures that you'd like them.

To be fair, Hong Xiuquan was pretty based.

[Salus Maior]

It's not really a minor detail to claim to be Jesus' brother.

But yeah, it figures that you'd like them.

To be fair, Hong Xiuquan was pretty based.

Wasn't he essentially a populist?

[The Archregimancy]

It's not really a minor detail to claim to be Jesus' brother.

But yeah, it figures that you'd like them.

To be fair, Hong Xiuquan was pretty based.

Hong Xiuquan was a delusional lunatic who bears a considerable share of the responsibility for the deaths of over 30 million people in one of the bloodiest civil wars in history (likely the bloodiest if we discard the upper death estimates of the An Lushan / An Shi rebellion). Without disputing that the late Qing Empire had its own significant faults, there is almost nothing admirable about Hong Xiuquan's eccentric syncretic religious views (I'll give him a modicum of credit for his traditional Hakka opposition to foot binding and his attempts to suppress opium), or his willingness to see tens of millions of Chinese die to promote them. No wonder Mao admired him so much.

Saiwania has endorsed some ... unusual ... views in NSG in the past, but supporting the evangelical millennial communitarian utopianism of Hong Xiuquan seems more than slightly inconsistent with his staunch far right views. And it shows a profound lack of understanding of Hong Xiuquan to write that his religious views were only 'at odds with the official Christian religions on minor details'; had the God Worshipping Society survived, we almost certainly would have come to see it as distinct from Christianity as Islam is from Christianity and Judaism, or (perhaps a better example) Manichaeism was from Christianity, Buddhism, and Zoroastrianism.

[Lady Victory]

It's not really a minor detail to claim to be Jesus' brother.

But yeah, it figures that you'd like them.

To be fair, Hong Xiuquan was pretty based.

IMO if you unironically claim to be Christ's younger brother you probably belong in an insane asylum.

[Luminesa]

indeed.

do you not see a problem with this

So the theology behind this concept expands most of the Bible, but to understand it, we have to recognize that salvation history stretches a few stages. The Old Covenant and New Covenant were the two main stages.

The Old Covenant: Humanity is deeply broken by the consequences of sin, God works to establish His presence among them to re-connect them to Himself. Israelites fall away almost constantly. Through various hardships-Egypt, Babylon, the destruction of the first temple-they are reminded that they need God’s presence. However, the Second Person of the Trinity has not revealed Himself yet, thus the connection between Heaven and Earth has not been fully re-established.

The New Covenant: The Incarnation, which brings the Second Person of the Trinity-Jesus-to Earth, fully God and fully Man. Jesus lives His life, reminding people that the kingdom of Heaven is near. He prepares to die on the cross to fulfill numerous prophecies of the Old Testament-particularly those of Isaiah. He institutes the Eucharist, which is the central part of the Catholic and Orthodox faiths. He dies on the cross and resurrects, which re-links Heaven and Earth together. (Technically, this happens on Holy Saturday after Jesus is buried and goes into Sheol.)

The problem is ultimately that we could not cross that bridge between Heaven and Earth purely on our understanding of God, not before Jesus healed the Earth and brought about a new era.

Edit: Recognizing that Sheol is different from Hell, the people there would not have been necessarily in a place where they were punished for sinning. Rather, Sheol is a place of rest and of wandering for souls. It’s...dreary, but not a place of burning fire. St. Joseph, the prophets, and the virtuous pagans all hung here until Jesus opened the doors. That means most of those people are probably in Heaven. (St. Joseph and the prophets for sure.)

I popped into this thread just a bit ago, so if I missed a part of this conversation and a part of your question, just tell me. XD