by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:55 am
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Cereskia » Tue May 11, 2021 2:58 am
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by Cereskia » Tue May 11, 2021 3:06 am
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:I look at the Skeptics' Annotated Bible, and its list of hundreds of contradictions, and I am just taken aback by how people can so easily believe these authors who can't keep their own story straight on what "God" wants of us. I guess the offer of eternal bliss, and threat of eternal torture, coupled with the insinuation that we're all born sinners and they're the only way out, has a way of making people a little reluctant to do their due diligence. But I suspect that this encouragement of willful ignorance has set the groundwork for similar mistakes on other issues. I'll go through these one by one.
Criminalization of abortion: People often attribute abortion-criminalization to envy at not getting laid. Nah. Nuns are notorious for interrogating teenage mothers about whether or not they enjoyed their sin, but it's pretty obvious nuns were chaste either of their own accord or because religion brainwashed them. Males aren't known for being picky. People often attribute it to wanting to deter extramarital sex, but plenty of monogamous couples resort to abortion, and plenty of women who actually want children; whether because the unwed father can easily afford those child support bills or because she doesn't mind going into poverty for it; do not. Individual politicians might be pandering to donors who want single mothers to be poor and desperate enough to work for their companies, but they wouldn't have millions of voters backing them up if religion didn't convince them that insentient fetus has a soul, or that life "beginning at conception" didn't matter more than sentience. Theoretically an atheist could believe that, but most of the people who believe that are religious, and most of the voters voting for abortion-criminalizing candidates are from the deeply-religious rural districts.
Gun culture: When you think of places whose solution to crime is "bring your guns to the restaurant so that you can scare would-be criminals out of breaking the law in the first place," what comes to mind is Waco, Texas, where that theory failed miserably, yet other nearby towns continue to legitimize open carry. Texas is known for its religiosity as well; it's where Kenneth Copeland preaches, after all. His proposed cure for coronavirus failed miserably yet people continue to believe in him too. I know Christians who are otherwise progressive will say Jesus said to be good to those who hurt you, and this goes against relying on deterrence. But when that comes from the same book where people were stoned to death for working on the Sabbath, that tends to muddy the waters. In practice, the places that actually come closer to practicing compassion over deterrence are Denmark, Norway, Holland and Sweden... places that are less religious than the USA in general, let alone Texas in particular.
The war on drugs: When you hear of politicians who propose executing people over drugs, (Trump comes to mind) they're usually elected by people from religious districts. When you hear of countries that actually go through with it, they're typically highly religious countries, if democracies. Secular states like China are ones where the public never had much of a way in the matter so it's not clear what if anything religion could have done to solve that anyway.
Homophobia: I'm not by any stretch of the imagination calling religion the ONLY source of homophobia. Gender roles, as exemplified by homophobia in China, are probably a far more fundamental factor. But when you aren't some dictatorship who can impose gender roles and/or homophobia on your subjects, you have to find a way to sell it to your audience. Religion appears to have found the most effective way.
Otherwise-less-homophobic opponents of gay marriage and gay adoptions: I hate whenever either of these things are conflated with homophobia. There are countries where "faggot" is used as an insult all the time and they legalized both of these things. Homophobia wouldn't explain it on its own, nor should it be treated as the only explanation. Gay marriage opponents say marriage is about procreation. "Be fruitful and multiply" comes to mind. Gay adoption opponents invoke gender roles; so does the Bible.
Opposition to welfare: The Bible said "he who does not work, neither shall he eat." Regardless of its initial context, this phrase has taken off as a means to turn people against welfare who would otherwise have seen through the case against it. Places like Denmark keep welfare use to a reasonable minimum by paying the working class a living wage. But in the 'States, "he who does not work, neither shall he eat" goes hand in hand with policies that leave the genuinely charitable strapped for resources, while still pretending to be all about charity. But they're right about one thing; the Bible didn't say it was through welfare in particular we should care for the poor.
Opposition to stem cell research: Last, but not least, this one stands out to me. I think it's the main reason I hate religion so much, as I don't recall caring half as much about religion before hearing of it. People who neither smuggled drugs in Indonesia nor had the extramarital sex religion supposedly condemns (except when Trump does it) or even so much as willingly set foot in Texas, let alone its restaurants, are DYING in hospital beds, waiting for cures from embryonic stem cell research. When people said they believed life begins at conception, either they weren't bluffing, or they are terrible at coming up with alternative excuses to oppose abortion that wouldn't apply to stem cell research at all. (Unless they get it mixed up with fetal tissue research, which is hard to prove they do.) People care more about insentient zygotes in a lab than sentient people already born, because of their warped version of what constitutes "life." Would a secular person give that much of a shit about the fertilization over the chemical changes actually relevant to sentience? Maybe a person who's allergic to nuance, but I would think letting religion's bribes and threats scare you out of critical thinking would make you more allergic to nuance, not less. And at the end of the day, it was the more-religious districts that re-elected Dubya after his grandstanding against stem cell research, not the less-religious ones.
I hope these things aren't religion's fault, I really do. (It hurts like hell to picture those charmingly quaint cathedrals as responsible for people's deathbed suffering.) But in case they are, shouldn't we seek alternatives to religion for whatever benefits people think they derive from it?
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by Northern Socialist Council Republics » Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 am
by Chan Island » Tue May 11, 2021 3:18 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:15 pm
Greater Cosmicium wrote:Okay, these things are mostly the fault of three certain religions that all originated in the Middle East and by some extraordinary way (perhaps there was divine intervention involved) managed to be followed by half of the world's population.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 2:19 pm
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:21 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Religion itself is not an issue. Religion is about believing in things you can't possibly prove anyway and you don't have to. Religion is a choice, and it always should be.
The problems come when faith is not a choice, when evidence and logic are abandoned in favor of blind faith (so, anti-intellectualism, which aren't problems specific to religion, as China and Russia will attest to), and when faith becomes a blunt instrument of the government.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 2:26 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:The Rich Port wrote:Religion itself is not an issue. Religion is about believing in things you can't possibly prove anyway and you don't have to. Religion is a choice, and it always should be.
The problems come when faith is not a choice, when evidence and logic are abandoned in favor of blind faith (so, anti-intellectualism, which aren't problems specific to religion, as China and Russia will attest to), and when faith becomes a blunt instrument of the government.
Russia and China are awful, but how if at all would religion have done anything to make them less awful?
by Lady Victory » Tue May 11, 2021 2:28 pm
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:31 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Well, that's the thing... You didn't have a choice in believing or not. And again, religion by itself isn't uniquely anti-intellectual and hierarchically fascist.
They can have those features, but they can also not have those features, in much the same way China and Russia are somehow both corporatist shitholes while also still being accused of being Communist even though they have few hallmarks of being Communist and never really did.
The Rich Port wrote:Hierarchical conservatism and fascism are very much like religions, which is how market-worship can be just as bad if not worse than just... Worshipping a private god.
The Rich Port wrote:While I am against proselytization, especially when there's a disparity involved between the preacher and the person being preached to, and I am against organized religion, forcing people to stop believing in something is just as bad.
The Rich Port wrote:The hope of humanity is education and parity... And CHOICE.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Loeje » Tue May 11, 2021 2:32 pm
by Nilokeras » Tue May 11, 2021 2:34 pm
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:35 pm
Lady Victory wrote:Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick is it really so hard for you to just let people believe in a force greater than everything else in the universe without feeling the need to "own" them?
Religion, like virtually everything else in the world, is merely a scapegoat for evil-doers to justify their villainous behavior. Take it away and they'll just find a new smokescreen to hide behind. Removing religion from society won't make everything magically better; it'll be the same shit it's always been, just a different excuse used to justify doing whatever they feel needs to be justified. If you believe otherwise then you are sorely unfamiliar with human nature.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 2:41 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:The Rich Port wrote:Well, that's the thing... You didn't have a choice in believing or not. And again, religion by itself isn't uniquely anti-intellectual and hierarchically fascist.
They can have those features, but they can also not have those features, in much the same way China and Russia are somehow both corporatist shitholes while also still being accused of being Communist even though they have few hallmarks of being Communist and never really did.
And on that point I agree with you.
However, Russia and China, being dictatorships, never had to "sell" fascism to the public. They just imposed it on them. Trump had to "sell" fascism to the public and most of the people buying happened to be religious.The Rich Port wrote:Hierarchical conservatism and fascism are very much like religions, which is how market-worship can be just as bad if not worse than just... Worshipping a private god.
They correlate anyway, so the point is moot.The Rich Port wrote:While I am against proselytization, especially when there's a disparity involved between the preacher and the person being preached to, and I am against organized religion, forcing people to stop believing in something is just as bad.
Depends on what you mean by proselytizing. Street preachers I couldn't care less about, but proselytizing in your capacity as a public servant erodes the separation of church and state and is as such a slippery slope to the kinds of theocratic policies like withholding funding from stem cell research. People always ask "well, just let them put the ten commandments in the courthouse, what could go wrong?" People dying on a hospital bed because a cure from stem cell research didn't come fast enough. That's what could go wrong.The Rich Port wrote:The hope of humanity is education and parity... And CHOICE.
They also say it's their choice as a taxpayer not to fund stem cell research. But when you consider the other things they fund (education, firefighting services, etc... only the most fervent of libertarians object to those) you realize there's more than just libertarianism to withholding stem cell research funding.
by Insaanistan » Tue May 11, 2021 2:43 pm
Chan Island wrote:To me really there are 4 main crimes that religions universally promote (or at least every major one I've ever encountered [including eastern ones]).
1) Faith-based thinking. To religions, faith is always, in one form or another, promoted as a virtue. But in every other application faith would be called blindly steaming forwards without any rational thought. This kind of dogmatic approach is toxic both on an individual and societal level, and creates many many problems, and can be safely blamed on religion.
2) Curtailing curiosity. I don't deny that many scientists, writers, philosophers and other great creators and discoverers were/are religious. But the correlation tends towards people who don't have a religion being the most eager to push those boundaries, to boldly go discover something new and not simply be satisfied by existing explanations. OP lists stem cell research, but in fact in just about every major battle against some kind of scientific advancement you will find a prominent religious component to the opposition.
3) Provides a cover for evil. From child-molesting clergy to supporting oppression to suicide-bombing terrorists to dishonest politicians wearing faith on a sleeve, religions always seem to rush to excuse or divert attention away from horrible actions just because they are 'on their side' or 'of faith'. Assuming that the faith isn't outright promoting the wicked behaviour. A large part of these sorts of evil actions become harder (though not impossible) to tolerate or cover for without a religious framework.
4) Falsely monopoly of goodness. Every major religion in some form or another sets itself as the only possible definition of goodness in one way or another. To be fair, in the past 10 years there has been a lot of positive progress on this front, but I don't think that it is capable of getting to the heart of this issue. OP talks about various social controls and unjust laws that stem from that conviction, but forgets that it also needlessly feeds into tribalism, ineffective charity methods, superiority complexes, conflict and so much more.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 2:48 pm
The Rich Port wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:And on that point I agree with you.
However, Russia and China, being dictatorships, never had to "sell" fascism to the public. They just imposed it on them. Trump had to "sell" fascism to the public and most of the people buying happened to be religious.
They correlate anyway, so the point is moot.
Depends on what you mean by proselytizing. Street preachers I couldn't care less about, but proselytizing in your capacity as a public servant erodes the separation of church and state and is as such a slippery slope to the kinds of theocratic policies like withholding funding from stem cell research. People always ask "well, just let them put the ten commandments in the courthouse, what could go wrong?" People dying on a hospital bed because a cure from stem cell research didn't come fast enough. That's what could go wrong.
They also say it's their choice as a taxpayer not to fund stem cell research. But when you consider the other things they fund (education, firefighting services, etc... only the most fervent of libertarians object to those) you realize there's more than just libertarianism to withholding stem cell research funding.
You're blaming the citizenry for being oppressed. Might does not make right... For someone who accepts criticisms against China and Russia you're very quick to dismiss a lot of it in favor of blaming religion, especially considering that an anti-theist is not comparable to an atheist and that Russia is now a borderline theocracy.
Yes, religion can be used as a weapon of tyranny, but it has also been used as an agent of liberation... And even if you figure it can't be properly used to liberate, restricting it is not the answer either, however accurate your arguments against it might seem to you.
Germany doesn't restrict fascism or Nazism actively, and even if it technically does, it uses education and social work to PREVENT it.
Granted, yeah, I think dogma is problematic, but religion isn't the only ideological framework subject to dogma and zealotry.
Correlation does not equal causation. Statistics 101.
Yeah, libertarianism is dumb and just conservatism with some minor concessions that don't make up for the fact it's still a form of conservatism.
The only thing that kills a bad idea is a better idea proposed well.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by The Rich Port » Tue May 11, 2021 2:52 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:The Rich Port wrote:
You're blaming the citizenry for being oppressed. Might does not make right... For someone who accepts criticisms against China and Russia you're very quick to dismiss a lot of it in favor of blaming religion, especially considering that an anti-theist is not comparable to an atheist and that Russia is now a borderline theocracy.
Yes, religion can be used as a weapon of tyranny, but it has also been used as an agent of liberation... And even if you figure it can't be properly used to liberate, restricting it is not the answer either, however accurate your arguments against it might seem to you.
Germany doesn't restrict fascism or Nazism actively, and even if it technically does, it uses education and social work to PREVENT it.
Granted, yeah, I think dogma is problematic, but religion isn't the only ideological framework subject to dogma and zealotry.
Correlation does not equal causation. Statistics 101.
Yeah, libertarianism is dumb and just conservatism with some minor concessions that don't make up for the fact it's still a form of conservatism.
The only thing that kills a bad idea is a better idea proposed well.
Show me where I advocated resorting to censorship.
by Lady Victory » Tue May 11, 2021 2:56 pm
GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Lady Victory wrote:Jumping Jesus on a pogo stick is it really so hard for you to just let people believe in a force greater than everything else in the universe without feeling the need to "own" them?
Religion, like virtually everything else in the world, is merely a scapegoat for evil-doers to justify their villainous behavior. Take it away and they'll just find a new smokescreen to hide behind. Removing religion from society won't make everything magically better; it'll be the same shit it's always been, just a different excuse used to justify doing whatever they feel needs to be justified. If you believe otherwise then you are sorely unfamiliar with human nature.
Let's take it one excuse at a time, then.
I know people always cite China as an example, but Xi Jinping probably has more in common with Trump than EITHER would like to admit. And his flaws are mostly a more extreme version of the American right's flaws; saving face instead of saving lives, legitimizing unsafe working conditions that lead to industrial accidents that get people killed, etc... but Xi Jinping needed the powers of a dictator to impose that on the public, whereas Trump managed to corral religious voters into supporting that.
Could another excuse be found? Perhaps.
But one less excuse is one step in the right direction, and a precedent set that when you misuse it, you lose it, telling people to be careful what else they misuse.
Let's take these excuses on, one at a time.
by Nakena » Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pm
The Rich Port wrote:Germany doesn't restrict fascism or Nazism actively, and even if it technically does, it uses education and social work to PREVENT it.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:02 pm
The Rich Port wrote:So... What's you answer to religion somehow promoting hierarchical fascism?
The Rich Port wrote:And if you're not advocating for systematic slaughter and/or censorship then this thread is kind of pointless.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by GuessTheAltAccount » Tue May 11, 2021 3:02 pm
Lady Victory wrote:GuessTheAltAccount wrote:Let's take it one excuse at a time, then.
I know people always cite China as an example, but Xi Jinping probably has more in common with Trump than EITHER would like to admit. And his flaws are mostly a more extreme version of the American right's flaws; saving face instead of saving lives, legitimizing unsafe working conditions that lead to industrial accidents that get people killed, etc... but Xi Jinping needed the powers of a dictator to impose that on the public, whereas Trump managed to corral religious voters into supporting that.
Could another excuse be found? Perhaps.
But one less excuse is one step in the right direction, and a precedent set that when you misuse it, you lose it, telling people to be careful what else they misuse.
Let's take these excuses on, one at a time.
That's all very fascinating.
Except none of what you just said has anything to do with religion.
Bombadil wrote:My girlfriend wanted me to treat her like a princess, so I arranged for her to be married to a stranger to strengthen our alliance with Poland.
by Alien Overlord » Tue May 11, 2021 3:03 pm
Walkerfort wrote:so...
Banning cars will lead to a clusterfuck of mininations everywhere and attempting to mash two Eras together miserably and 1984 style dictatorships
butterfly effect when give a butterfly cocaine
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