[Abandoned] Repeal: Liberate Kaiserreich

[Tomisburg]

So since you all claim to be putting in the work, I though I'd look through your region and It took me literally a basic cursory exploration of your nations to find one flying a the American Falangist Party Flag... the Falangist symbol "The Yoke and Arrows"in Red and Black are widely utilized by National Syndicalists and Fascists throughout Spain, Europe, and the world.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia

I mean that is a blatant example and one that should have easily been caught.

That being said, while I personally would include the use of Iron Crosses as troubling, I understand the larger NS culture isn't as heavy handed as I am, making this arguable the only blatantly obvious Fascist in your region, based off of the flags.

You might want to resolve that before even more folks notice it.

Hello! I am KAISERREICH's go-to guy for identifying Nazi/Fascist/Far-Right symbols, so if anything does slip by it falls on me. Later today, I'll do another sweep of the nations later today to make sure nothing else remains. As for a few of the members you brought to our attention....

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=novo_corvia - This user had a very obvious Far-Right symbol (Falangist) on their flag, it has been a while since I went and looked through all nations, but as mentioned above I'll comb them later today. This user has been banned.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=resurged_valhalla - This is a friend of mine, and one who has actually helped me spot fascist before. I told them to edit the flag and they have. I was not aware of the symbol they had on their flag, and it has a quite basic design, so it's likely they did not notice it either. The flag has been fixed.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=legomenon - This user's flag seems to be inspired by the Byzantine Flag, and the symbol you noticed seems to me like a regular Sun Cross. I understand your concern, but I doubt this user is attempting to hide anything.

About the Iron Cross, it really depends on the context. If the symbol is on a flag where a Swastika is normally placed, it's obviously being used as a dogwhistle. However, especially with our German Empire themed region, the Iron Cross is present on many flags, likely for innocent reasons.

[Lenlyvit]

I'm going to move this to last call, if there's any more discussion I'm looking to submit this weekend. For HS's advice, I'm not really sure how to incorporate what he wants in the proposal so if he or anyone else has suggestions that would be great.

[Nova Vandalia]

I do just want to make it clear, after helping to point out the use of Nazi and Fascist symbols in your region. I don't personally endorse this, because of that last statement from y'all. Asking for the pretty consistent benefit of the doubt on allowing Nazi adjacent symbols within your regions, with a past like y'alls is too close to walking that line. It's either all or nothing. You're region lost that privilege in my book to walk that line when you all were fascist, and there is no regain or rebuild that trust. So so long as you're allowing those symbols often used by them it's a no from me.

And As for the argument about OOC Liberations. I adore them. They're a tool in the fight against fascism, and I'll keep that tool in my toolbox even if I don't ever intend on using it.

[Refuge Isle]

Against for the reasons BBD and Xoriet already stated better than I could.

[Great Algerstonia]

I support this

[Lenlyvit]

It's been almost a year since I tried to pursue this proposal, and quietly gave up on it. I'm reviving the discussion on it, and have made some edits to reflect upon the passage of yet another year. I've also vaguely made note of the new site policy banning Nazis from NS, but I'm not sure if it's legal and would wish a moderator to look over the proposal to deem legality if they're okay with that.

[Tinhampton]

I would support this proposal even if it constituted nothing more than the letter D repeated 3,278 times.

[Nova Vandalia]

I apologize to you Lenly if this comes off as aggressive as I'm dropping a lot at once, that isn't my intent to info dump as a tactic, it just what all I found. I would ask you to reconsider until you along with either folks from the Civil Defense Siren or NS Antifa do a deeper dive.

Doing a cursory look just through the nations I found all of these first ones currently fly the Sudetenland Czech Republic Flag

The Sudetenland, the historical region near border between Czechia and Germany, was settled by Germans and from 1938 to 1945 was connected to Hitler's Third Reich. This flag was used mainly by the Sudetendeutsche Landsmanschaft (Union of Germans), a large group of Germanic refugees who had to flee from Czechia to Germany after World War II.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinberg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansin_krieg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinfeld
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hollow_forest
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansining
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinland
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=darth_scan
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinhelm
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinburg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=monarchy_of_france
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=drussian_reich
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinia_reich

A lot of these nations are puppets, but appear to be Scansinia puppets the founder's. Nothing is changed dude is still a fascists, you'd be handing it back over to him. Also if you've paid any attention with in the last year or two a lot of these puppets or similar ones to them flying the same flag have been seen in regions like Blitzkrieg, The Fifth Empire, ect There is actually one floating in Germany under Blitzvolk.

Prince’s Flag
Used by the modern far right PPV and was previously used with some alterations in Apartheid South Africa, and is now largely banned in South Africa.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=amtsel

Fasces
I mean this one if blatant and needs no explanation
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=4th_reichn

Esoteric Nazism
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hyper_boria

Hyperboria is an Esoteric Nazi calling card, mostly recently coming to prominence again on tiktok especially after it was used along with other more common Nazi symbols in the video made by the Christchurch shooter

This isn't counting all of the WWI motto's the purposefully walk the line, the same with the flags those are too numerous to count and fortunately for them too ambiguous to have any real teeth for some folks, so I'm not including them. That being said if you do go through the motto's you a see a lot of "God, Fatherland, and (Family or Honor Take your pick) that is common amongst fascists, white nationalists and the alt right.

I want to be very precise in saying these are on the surface, not diving into conversations, not getting into their discord. This is surface level things they can't even root out in their own region and give me genuine doubt as if any genuine change has occurred and until I believe genuine change has occurred I can't in good conscious vote yes, nor recommend so to anyone else.

I am open to hearing your arguments for why we should repeal though.

[Lenlyvit]

I apologize to you Lenly if this comes off as aggressive as I'm dropping a lot at once, that isn't my intent to info dump as a tactic, it just what all I found. I would ask you to reconsider until you along with either folks from the Civil Defense Siren or NS Antifa do a deeper dive.

Doing a cursory look just through the nations I found all of these first ones currently fly the Sudetenland Czech Republic Flag

The Sudetenland, the historical region near border between Czechia and Germany, was settled by Germans and from 1938 to 1945 was connected to Hitler's Third Reich. This flag was used mainly by the Sudetendeutsche Landsmanschaft (Union of Germans), a large group of Germanic refugees who had to flee from Czechia to Germany after World War II.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinberg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansin_krieg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinfeld
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hollow_forest
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansining
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinland
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=darth_scan
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinhelm
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinburg
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=monarchy_of_france
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=drussian_reich
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=scansinia_reich

A lot of these nations are puppets, but appear to be Scansinia puppets the founder's. Nothing is changed dude is still a fascists, you'd be handing it back over to him. Also if you've paid any attention with in the last year or two a lot of these puppets or similar ones to them flying the same flag have been seen in regions like Blitzkrieg, The Fifth Empire, ect There is actually one floating in Germany under Blitzvolk.

According to this site that flag wasn't the flag of the Nazis party after they took over in 1938, it predated the Nazis invasion. That's just the first link when I googled. Is there something I missed?

Prince’s Flag
Used by the modern far right PPV and was previously used with some alterations in Apartheid South Africa, and is now largely banned in South Africa.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=amtsel

Fasces
I mean this one if blatant and needs no explanation
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=4th_reichn

Esoteric Nazism
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=hyper_boria

Hyperboria is an Esoteric Nazi calling card, mostly recently coming to prominence again on tiktok especially after it was used along with other more common Nazi symbols in the video made by the Christchurch shooter

Nazism and Nazis symbols are banned on NS, have you thought of reporting them? Other than that, these look like new nations that may have slipped under the radar. Maybe you should tell kreich?

This isn't counting all of the WWI motto's the purposefully walk the line, the same with the flags those are too numerous to count and fortunately for them too ambiguous to have any real teeth for some folks, so I'm not including them. That being said if you do go through the motto's you a see a lot of "God, Fatherland, and (Family or Honor Take your pick) that is common amongst fascists, white nationalists and the alt right.

WWI predated WWII, and during that time Germany was still a monarchy. They were really into that kind of stuff, but it may be worth bringing it to kreich if you want.

I want to be very precise in saying these are on the surface, not diving into conversations, not getting into their discord. This is surface level things they can't even root out in their own region and give me genuine doubt as if any genuine change has occurred and until I believe genuine change has occurred I can't in good conscious vote yes, nor recommend so to anyone else.

I am open to hearing your arguments for why we should repeal though.

My arguments were already clarified in this thread, it's time to repeal the liberation. It's not serving a purpose anymore.

[Nova Vandalia]

According to this site that flag wasn't the flag of the Nazis party after they took over in 1938, it predated the Nazis invasion. That's just the first link when I googled. Is there something I missed?

It does predate the Nazi's invasion but had a deep connection to the pan nationalism that would lead to Nazism. The Sudetenland was an area originally controled by the Astro-Hungary that was seized by Czechoslovakia post WWI, noted for it high German Population. It was know for the rise of it's Nazi party which lead that way to it's Annexation in 1938? I think?. Scansinia is a well known Nazi, I'm assuming this is fine to say since he has a history of identifying such, if it's not I'll acceptation moderations ruling.. He founded the Kaissereich, as region know Nazism in the past, are you asking me to assume that he chose this flag by coincidence and not for it pretty thick connection with the rise of German Aryanism and White Germanic Nationalism and to ignore it's connection since they can no longer fly direct Nazi Symbols like the SdP flag? Also again I've seen those puppets with those flags in Fascistic regions. I fairly consistently check in on those regions because I am opposed to their ideologies, and like to know where they stand.

If it was anyone else any where I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You are an individual I consider pretty sharp, at one point you were easily one greatest movers in the WA, and I just don't want you making the wrong decision. I am watching a good person make what I consider a reckless decision, saying a decision that your making is reckless may upset you and for that I apologize, but it is how I feel in this regard.

WWI predated WWII, and during that time Germany was still a monarchy. They were really into that kind of stuff, but it may be worth bringing it to kreich if you want.

Other than that, these look like new nations that may have slipped under the radar. Maybe you should tell kreich?

I think it is worth bringing up, but they should know it, is my point. They consistently have made it a note to be Anti-Fascist, that they're doing the work and yet I remain unconvinced if they blind to the basics and blind to the dog whistles. They're being too lenient on themselves, and I don't think we should be.

Nazism and Nazis symbols are banned on NS, have you thought of reporting them?

As for have I reported Nazi symbols. Yes. Have Mods always agreed with me? No. Do somethings slip by them or do they occasionally make a call I feel is wrong? I mean they're human, even though they are fairly good at thier job, but this isn't the place to adjudicate that.

What I can say is these symbols have been allowed

the Kolovrat or Balto-Slavic Swatstika https://www.nationstates.net/nation=valkalan

The Black Sun https://www.nationstates.net/nation=wildflecken

One dude who literally just got rid of the black circle and replaced the swastika with the Alghaz Rune https://www.nationstates.net/nation=zentaur.

Or a very obvious one https://www.nationstates.net/nation=azgoghk, who used a Volknut, which isn't always by itself connected with Nazism as it is used in Germanic Neo-paganism but is still often used by Neo-Nazi groups coupling that the fact that is with the name Aryan in a well know Fascist region and I did ask explicitly about and told it was allowed [https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=505040&p=38683413&hilit=aryan#p38683413], so instead I choose to educate people so they can make informed choices, in this case on this thread, because even if something is ruled legal in the game doesn't mean it's not a hallmark, dog whistle, or call out to Nazism, White Supremacy or ,White Nationalism.

My arguments were already clarified in this thread, it's time to repeal the liberation. It's not serving a purpose anymore.

Then I politely ask if you have no new arguments, what makes you think this time will or should be any different? I'm genuinely interested? Do you think it's just better timing or a more receptive GP community?

[Lenlyvit]

According to this site that flag wasn't the flag of the Nazis party after they took over in 1938, it predated the Nazis invasion. That's just the first link when I googled. Is there something I missed?

It does predate the Nazi's invasion but had a deep connection to the pan nationalism that would lead to Nazism. The Sudetenland was an area originally controled by the Astro-Hungary that was seized by Czechoslovakia post WWI, noted for it high German Population. It was know for the rise of it's Nazi party which lead that way to it's Annexation in 1938? I think?. Scansinia is a well known Nazi, I'm assuming this is fine to say since he has a history of identifying such, if it's not I'll acceptation moderations ruling.. He founded the Kaissereich, as region know Nazism in the past, are you asking me to assume that he chose this flag by coincidence and not for it pretty thick connection with the rise of German Aryanism and White Germanic Nationalism and to ignore it's connection since they can no longer fly direct Nazi Symbols like the SdP flag? Also again I've seen those puppets with those flags in Fascistic regions. I fairly consistently check in on those regions because I am opposed to their ideologies, and like to know where they stand.

I have yet to see any shred of evidence pointing to Scansinia themselves being a Nazis, so please don't accuse without evidence. As I said, that flag predated the Nazis party and their involvement within that sector of Czechoslovakia. Last I knew, Scansinia was welcome in the NS leaders discord which they wouldn't be if they were a Nazis, and we know that because of the GP players running that server.

If it was anyone else any where I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. You are an individual I consider pretty sharp, at one point you were easily one greatest movers in the WA, and I just don't want you making the wrong decision. I am watching a good person make what I consider a reckless decision, saying a decision that your making is reckless may upset you and for that I apologize, but it is how I feel in this regard.

I thank you for how you view me, but I'm not making a reckless decision. Not everyone looks into this stuff as in-depth as you do apparently, because not even I know the depth of fascist and Nazis symbolism. I highly doubt all of kreich knows the full breadth of Nazis symbolism either. Things slip through.

WWI predated WWII, and during that time Germany was still a monarchy. They were really into that kind of stuff, but it may be worth bringing it to kreich if you want.

Other than that, these look like new nations that may have slipped under the radar. Maybe you should tell kreich?

I think it is worth bringing up, but they should know it, is my point. They consistently have made it a note to be Anti-Fascist, that they're doing the work and yet I remain unconvinced if they blind to the basics and blind to the dog whistles. They're being too lenient on themselves, and I don't think we should be.

Why would they know all of this symbolism? Because they've been host to Nazis and fascist influences in the past? You can't expect people to know everything.

Nazism and Nazis symbols are banned on NS, have you thought of reporting them?

As for have I reported Nazi symbols. Yes. Have Mods always agreed with me? No. Do somethings slip by them or do they occasionally make a call I feel is wrong? I mean they're human, even though they are fairly good at thier job, but this isn't the place to adjudicate that.

What I can say is these symbols have been allowed

the Kolovrat or Balto-Slavic Swatstika https://www.nationstates.net/nation=valkalan

The Black Sun https://www.nationstates.net/nation=wildflecken

One dude who literally just got rid of the black circle and replaced the swastika with the Alghaz Rune https://www.nationstates.net/nation=zentaur.

Or a very obvious one https://www.nationstates.net/nation=azgoghk, who used a Volknut, which isn't always by itself connected with Nazism as it is used in Germanic Neo-paganism but is still often used by Neo-Nazi groups coupling that the fact that is with the name Aryan in a well know Fascist region and I did ask explicitly about and told it was allowed [https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=505040&p=38683413&hilit=aryan#p38683413], so instead I choose to educate people so they can make informed choices, in this case on this thread, because even if something is ruled legal in the game doesn't mean it's not a hallmark, dog whistle, or call out to Nazism, White Supremacy or ,White Nationalism.

My arguments were already clarified in this thread, it's time to repeal the liberation. It's not serving a purpose anymore.

Then I politely ask if you have no new arguments, what makes you think this time will or should be any different? I'm genuinely interested? Do you think it's just better timing or a more receptive GP community?

There is nothing to make me think this time will be different. There aren't any new players in power in GP circles, no new favorability from them. Those who will vote for will, and those who will vote against will vote that way. It will either succeed or fail, and I have no particular feelings in either direction. Is Kaiserreich edgy as hell? Yes. Do they have possible bad OOC problems and extreme edginess they need to fix? More than likely, but I'm not a part of their region.

[Sedgistan]

It's been almost a year since I tried to pursue this proposal, and quietly gave up on it. I'm reviving the discussion on it, and have made some edits to reflect upon the passage of yet another year. I've also vaguely made note of the new site policy banning Nazis from NS, but I'm not sure if it's legal and would wish a moderator to look over the proposal to deem legality if they're okay with that.

It looks fine.

[Nova Vandalia]

I have yet to see any shred of evidence pointing to Scansinia themselves being a Nazis, so please don't accuse without evidence. As I said, that flag predated the Nazis party and their involvement within that sector of Czechoslovakia. Last I knew, Scansinia was welcome in the NS leaders discord which they wouldn't be if they were a Nazis, and we know that because of the GP players running that server.

They founded a region that was liberated for being fascist. That's the proof. The region we're talking about right now, for being a Nazi and Fascisitic region. The proof was already decided on, I'm unsure why you need more. You are an intelligent individual, what is there to not comprehend about the history of the region and the reason we're here in the first place talking about it? The proof needed is if they've changed, of which you nor, the region you're trying to repeal the liberation on have provided in any measure in this forum. Actually the opposite given Tomisburg's now infamous history along with two others of being a destructive force. Tomis who was once Kaiserriech's most stalwart defender, and one of the biggest proponents of this action the last time you brought it up, of course you didn't not choose them as a compatriot so that is unfortunate on your behalf. They literally had a bad actor last time and you have stated yourself you have no reason to beleive there has been any relevant change.

I thank you for how you view me, but I'm not making a reckless decision. Not everyone looks into this stuff as in-depth as you do apparently, because not even I know the depth of fascist and Nazis symbolism. I highly doubt all of kreich knows the full breadth of Nazis symbolism either. Things slip through.

I do agree things slip through, and you're right people do not go as in depth as I do, because not everyone has been on the wrong of the harmful ideology. So I would suspect that a reasonable thing is to listen to knowledge party on the matter, correct? I would gladly listen to you on the matter of who in Defenderdom is deserving of a Commend, on creating a well written resolution, or anything you have a strong working knowledge which as you stated just know is not that in depth in this area.

Why would they know all of this symbolism? Because they've been host to Nazis and fascist influences in the past? You can't expect people to know everything.

Because they had been actively been putting forth that they've been combatting it. If this that is true they should have developed a knowledge base, which the lack of knowledge is evidence to suggest they haven't. If you are actively engaged in something growth should be produceable. And because you're not part of their region you can't offer proof because you don't have it.

I would glady help if they wanted to reach out, I'd gladly help any region if they reached out to develop a working knowledge on identifying dog whistles and symbols, but it's on Kaissereich to do the work if they wanted their liberation repealed, to reach out. It is up to the SC and the larger NS the community to decide if it's been enough and I don't think they have in the least, and so I am voiceing that, which is well with in my rights, and I this is a matter of which I show quite a bit of militancy in and one that I will talk till I'm blue in the face and fight for. I will go post for post in the politess tone I can muster, to try to impart on both yourself and the community on why this shouldn't happen.

There is nothing to make me think this time will be different. There aren't any new players in power in GP circles, no new favorability from them. Those who will vote for will, and those who will vote against will vote that way. It will either succeed or fail, and I have no particular feelings in either direction. Is Kaiserreich edgy as hell? Yes. Do they have possible bad OOC problems and extreme edginess they need to fix? More than likely, but I'm not a part of their region.

You are not a part of this region, nor am I, but you are a part of this game and it's community. To which I assume, and please correct if I assume wrong, one of the reason you area defender is because you want to in your mind protect that communities created within this game? That's all I am trying to do as well in regards to my stalwart defense against this. Kaiserreich was an infamous Nazi and White Nationalist region, one still filled with dogwhistles, one that you by nature of this are giving undue attention to, which isn't on you it just a product of having this conversation. The best thing to do in the Kaiserreich is leave it liberated and let it fade into obscurity, until there is significant proof from that community that it doesn't spread or harbor ideologies inherently destructive.

The Facsists and white nationalists on this game have adapted to the new rules, I find it a moral imperitive and obligations to call them out, and educate others on where it grows under the new rule set. I find it a moral imperitive to stand against those ideologies, and I feel like you do as well, which is why this is utterly beffudling. You offer trust with no verification in a matter that has spurned the community more than once.

[Free Algerstonia]

I still support this repeal.

[Lenlyvit]

I have yet to see any shred of evidence pointing to Scansinia themselves being a Nazis, so please don't accuse without evidence. As I said, that flag predated the Nazis party and their involvement within that sector of Czechoslovakia. Last I knew, Scansinia was welcome in the NS leaders discord which they wouldn't be if they were a Nazis, and we know that because of the GP players running that server.

They founded a region that was liberated for being fascist. That's the proof. The region we're talking about right now, for being a Nazi and Fascisitic region. The proof was already decided on, I'm unsure why you need more. You are an intelligent individual, what is there to not comprehend about the history of the region and the reason we're here in the first place talking about it? The proof needed is if they've changed, of which you nor, the region you're trying to repeal the liberation on have provided in any measure in this forum. Actually the opposite given Tomisburg's now infamous history along with two others of being a destructive force. Tomis who was once Kaiserriech's most stalwart defender, and one of the biggest proponents of this action the last time you brought it up, of course you didn't not choose them as a compatriot so that is unfortunate on your behalf. They literally had a bad actor last time and you have stated yourself you have no reason to beleive there has been any relevant change.

Just because Scansinia founded a region that turned towards Nazism and fascism does not mean that they themselves are part of that ideology. I hate how you have me defending them, but it is how it is. I don't know what happened with Tomisburg, so I can't comment on them, but it looks like they've moved away from Kaiserreich. As to whether or not they've changed away from Nazism and fascism, they have a giant sign on their WFE prohibiting those ideologies and have the anti-fascist dispatch pinned. Also, the top anti-fascist regions which update the Civil Defense Siren removed them from the list, which means they are no longer considered to have those ideologies.

I thank you for how you view me, but I'm not making a reckless decision. Not everyone looks into this stuff as in-depth as you do apparently, because not even I know the depth of fascist and Nazis symbolism. I highly doubt all of kreich knows the full breadth of Nazis symbolism either. Things slip through.

I do agree things slip through, and you're right people do not go as in depth as I do, because not everyone has been on the wrong of the harmful ideology. So I would suspect that a reasonable thing is to listen to knowledge party on the matter, correct? I would gladly listen to you on the matter of who in Defenderdom is deserving of a Commend, on creating a well written resolution, or anything you have a strong working knowledge which as you stated just know is not that in depth in this area.

I am listening to your knowledge on the matter, so please do not think that I'm not. I've also been looking up at least one thing which you've said, and notified you of what I found. That's listening.

Why would they know all of this symbolism? Because they've been host to Nazis and fascist influences in the past? You can't expect people to know everything.

Because they had been actively been putting forth that they've been combatting it. If this that is true they should have developed a knowledge base, which the lack of knowledge is evidence to suggest they haven't. If you are actively engaged in something growth should be produceable. And because you're not part of their region you can't offer proof because you don't have it.

I would glady help if they wanted to reach out, I'd gladly help any region if they reached out to develop a working knowledge on identifying dog whistles and symbols, but it's on Kaissereich to do the work if they wanted their liberation repealed, to reach out. It is up to the SC and the larger NS the community to decide if it's been enough and I don't think they have in the least, and so I am voiceing that, which is well with in my rights, and I this is a matter of which I show quite a bit of militancy in and one that I will talk till I'm blue in the face and fight for. I will go post for post in the politess tone I can muster, to try to impart on both yourself and the community on why this shouldn't happen.

That's your opinion, and you're right that you're entirely within your rights to state your opinion. But I have a differing opinion, and my opinion is that kreich is no longer fascist or Nazis. This also happens to be the opinion of the large anti-fascist regions that removed kreich from the Civil Defense Siren, all while acknowledging that kreich continues to have an edgy and OOC problem that they need to fix.

I think you're trying to hold kreich up to a standard which they cannot achieve, and probably never will. I'm extremely anti-fascist, and combat it, yet I myself don't go looking and investigating fascist and Nazis symbols.

There is nothing to make me think this time will be different. There aren't any new players in power in GP circles, no new favorability from them. Those who will vote for will, and those who will vote against will vote that way. It will either succeed or fail, and I have no particular feelings in either direction. Is Kaiserreich edgy as hell? Yes. Do they have possible bad OOC problems and extreme edginess they need to fix? More than likely, but I'm not a part of their region.

You are not a part of this region, nor am I, but you are a part of this game and it's community. To which I assume, and please correct if I assume wrong, one of the reason you area defender is because you want to in your mind protect that communities created within this game? That's all I am trying to do as well in regards to my stalwart defense against this. Kaiserreich was an infamous Nazi and White Nationalist region, one still filled with dogwhistles, one that you by nature of this are giving undue attention to, which isn't on you it just a product of having this conversation. The best thing to do in the Kaiserreich is leave it liberated and let it fade into obscurity, until there is significant proof from that community that it doesn't spread or harbor ideologies inherently destructive.

The Facsists and white nationalists on this game have adapted to the new rules, I find it a moral imperitive and obligations to call them out, and educate others on where it grows under the new rule set. I find it a moral imperitive to stand against those ideologies, and I feel like you do as well, which is why this is utterly beffudling. You offer trust with no verification in a matter that has spurned the community more than once.

Emphasis on "was" a fascist and Nazis region. They no longer are, and that was one of the main drives behind the liberation. I passed this liberation while riding anti-kreich sentiment instead of passing a condemnation, which I had originally drafted. This resolution is now pointless, and almost four years later remains toothless as well. It's time to repeal it.

[Nova Vandalia]

EDIT: Accidently posted this from the Wrong Nation. Fixed it!

Just because Scansinia founded a region that turned towards Nazism and fascism does not mean that they themselves are part of that ideology. I hate how you have me defending them, but it is how it is. I don't know what happened with Tomisburg, so I can't comment on them, but it looks like they've moved away from Kaiserreich. As to whether or not they've changed away from Nazism and fascism, they have a giant sign on their WFE prohibiting those ideologies and have the anti-fascist dispatch pinned. Also, the top anti-fascist regions which update the Civil Defense Siren removed them from the list, which means they are no longer considered to have those ideologies.

That's your opinion, and you're right that you're entirely within your rights to state your opinion. But I have a differing opinion, and my opinion is that kreich is no longer fascist or Nazis. This also happens to be the opinion of the large anti-fascist regions that removed kreich from the Civil Defense Siren, all while acknowledging that kreich continues to have an edgy and OOC problem that they need to fix.

I'm sorry but if you state you self that you hate how you are being forced to defend them, that to me would be a call to re-examine a stance more thoroughly. As for founding a region that turned towards Nazism, it isn't just that simple, they didn't just found a region, they maintained power as the founder through out that regions history. They allowed it to turn towards Nazism, I know you understand the mechnics of how regions work, at any point they could have held folk accountable, removed them, banned them, or stopped it in stead they made an active choice to allow it to thrive in a community they had executive control of. By being the founder they hold repsonsibility for thier region. If you think I am mischaracterizing him, it is well within in site rules to report me to moderation as calling someone a Nazi, or White Supremacy. If my characterization of him is that far off the mark there is recourse, so if you beleive I am truly out of line no hard feelings.

Adding the Line on a WFE doesn't mean anything, it's lip services. I'm asking to show me the work. What policies have they implimented? Tomisburg was the one taking responsbility of removing the element as you pointed out they're no longer involved after they proceeded to destroy another organization's discord, which suggest his word isn't probably the most reliable. What policies have Scansia carried out? Who was the last Nazi they booted? What are the punishments for dog whistling? What are thier criteria for identifying it since our seems to be so disparate.

Also simply saying the Civil Defense Siren took them off isn't enough. Are the individuals behind Civil Defense siren in support of your efforts to repeal the liberation? If that is their conviction you have my word I will gladly cease and desist from commenting further. This is be last post on this thread if you can get them to post on this thread in support of it. You're using them as proof of change, well then let them come in here and comment and support you if the Civil Defense Siren truly beleives that, unless you have an authority to speak for them.

I am listening to your knowledge on the matter, so please do not think that I'm not. I've also been looking up at least one thing which you've said, and notified you of what I found. That's listening.

This is valid, and you are correct.

I think you're trying to hold kreich up to a standard which they cannot achieve, and probably never will. I'm extremely anti-fascist, and combat it, yet I myself don't go looking and investigating fascist and Nazis symbols.

This may come off as a little abrupt sounding and I apologize I cannot find a better way to word it, but not being a Nazi and not being a fascist is actually pretty easy, most people do it everday. Most regions never have a history of it. Most regions don't have issues with dogwhistles. Most root them out. Considering it's the norm I would say it's a pretty acheivable standard. The problem is this one couldn't do that , and when they did they lost the right to be afforded reasonable doubt as to thier motives in my books, because they couldn't something so simple as not be National Socialist region. The burden of proof on change should be higher, and for me it is and I am suggesting to the larger community it should higher for them to when it comes to make a decision on your if they should support your proposal.

Emphasis on "was" a fascist and Nazis region. They no longer are, and that was one of the main drives behind the liberation. I passed this liberation while riding anti-kreich sentiment instead of passing a condemnation, which I had originally drafted. This resolution is now pointless, and almost four years later remains toothless as well. It's time to repeal it.

I think it does have teeth, it does something really great, in the absent of everything else it humbles thems, it makes them impotent and reliant one individual for thier security. If at any given point Scansia were to be blatantly rule break, that's it for the region because of the liberation. It makes their founder accountable and make the entire region dependant on thier acountability, there is no passwording it, no huddling up. And on top of that Shame itself is a really great tool, when you're dealing with such a shameful ideology.

and I wholly admit this is an unfair question and you certainly shouldn't answer it. As a matter of fact I will point out that you have no control over what the region does once you repeal the liberation. But if you are that confident that you would be willing to take responsibility if unpon repeal they return to thier old ways? Because I feel like after dedicating yourself to the passage of this, after arguing your point not just the initial time but now, that I would be hard press (even though logically I don't think it's a valid take) to not emotionally hold you responsible for negative consequence that occurs from this repeal given how much warning I've laid out and I don't think I would be the only one doing so.

Anyways I'm obviously not going to talk you away from your position, which is regrettable, I will come back in to rebut a reply as I said I will go post for post and go blue in the face as this is something I am passionate about, so I can't say I have any intention of walking away (unless as stated earlier the Civil Defense Siren support occurs, in which I'll hold up my word) . I will reply to any new arguments in favor it, but I think you and I are stuck in a loop. And I do appreicate that as you pointed out, you were at least willing to listen. I know you think you're doing the right thing and I think I am, so no respect lost and if I ever went over the bounds I apologize. I wish nothing but the best in all your endeavors except this one.

[Team Leo]

support. bruh this shouldve been repealed a long time ago. full support yo.

[Refuge Isle]

There's ultimately no compelling reason to remove the liberation. As in, there is no mechanical disadvantage to it remaining in place and no mechanical advantage of it being removed. Socially, if you feel like it has been successful in bringing about better behaviour from Kaiserreich, then it is doing it's job. To say "in my opinion, they are no longer Nazis" and simultaneously voice that neither you nor they are aware of what Nazi symbology exists in their region is rather embarrassing. If you're unqualified in assessing their "don't be fash" status, then you should not be spearheading this effort and championing that it has been done.

There's nothing changed in my position from a year ago, because I don't feel there's been a change in Kaiserreich from a year ago. Agree with all above points by Nova; It is not difficult to not be a fascist, and we should not treat regions like drug addicts in need of long-term rehabilitation programs. If they want to stop, they can stop immediately and definitively by deciding reasonable positions of what crosses the bounds and not need perennial arguments about whether their members founding Nazi regions really reflects on Kaiserreich itself.

[Valkyriah]

I have an alt account in KAISSEREICH,why do its exist ?

Me fail anglash?That unpossible!

[Fauxia]

There's ultimately no compelling reason to remove the liberation. As in, there is no mechanical disadvantage to it remaining in place and no mechanical advantage of it being removed. Socially, if you feel like it has been successful in bringing about better behaviour from Kaiserreich, then it is doing it's job.

Sure, but liberations are almost always temporary measures. When they have accomplished their tasks, they are generally removed. It would not be reasonable for the Security Council to maintain an impediment to the security of a region for characteristics that no longer apply to it, and have not for some time.

I have nothing to say about whether that applies to Kaiserreich. I will reiterate that I don't really think these liberations do the slightest thing, but then, I'm not sure it's worth the effort of repealing it either in that case.

[Nova Vandalia]

Sure, but liberations are almost always temporary measures. When they have accomplished their tasks, they are generally removed. It would not be reasonable for the Security Council to maintain an impediment to the security of a region for characteristics that no longer apply to it, and have not for some time.

This isn't for me at least a viable argument

While technically true I think the extent to which we leave them open is actually pretty significant. I may have miscounted, please double check my numbers I'm not a numbers person, but I got some where around 53 liberations with 11 being currently open including Kaissereich's which would puts us at 1 in every 5 of all liberations passed are still currently active. That's not an insignificant percentage. Which means, again if my math is right which there is a strong possibility it isn't, that there is more than enough precedence to leave a liberation open , especially give the controversial circumstances of this one.

And as per this statement "characteristics that no longer apply to it, and have not for some time." Again I reiterate Where is the proof? What are the steps they took for it to no longer apply? How effective do they feel this has been? Why are they missing dog whistles?

And finally If all the matters is that a liberation is open and that procedurally is not viable to some folks there are 9 others (I subtracted CCD's because well the following qualifiers don't apply), less controversial, with no history of Nazism or white nationalism involved upon liberation. Then there is no loss starting elsewhere, other than a region that has a very troubling history on this site has to wait in line.

[Affray]

There's ultimately no compelling reason to remove the liberation. As in, there is no mechanical disadvantage to it remaining in place and no mechanical advantage of it being removed. Socially, if you feel like it has been successful in bringing about better behaviour from Kaiserreich, then it is doing it's job.

Sure, but liberations are almost always temporary measures. When they have accomplished their tasks, they are generally removed. It would not be reasonable for the Security Council to maintain an impediment to the security of a region for characteristics that no longer apply to it, and have not for some time.

I have nothing to say about whether that applies to Kaiserreich. I will reiterate that I don't really think these liberations do the slightest thing, but then, I'm not sure it's worth the effort of repealing it either in that case.

I’m here to say that it does in fact, still apply to Kaiserreich. Their behavior on Discord is the same. Their fascination with a certain unnamed period in history is the same.

[Alistia]

Against.

Even if kaiserreich has 'changed', it has only been due to public pressure.

Despite all that can be said about supposed changes in the region, at the time of this liberation, Scansinia (the founder of kaiserreich), was completely complicit and had no issue with allowing nazis and fascists to flourish in the region and hold positions in the government, in having a swastika as the forum banner, etc. Without the international outcry, kaiserreich as a whole, and the founder/regions attitudes towards fascism and nazism, would not have changed. They don't deserve to have the liberation reapeled.

[Xoriet]

Against repealing this. I've seen way too much vile content in their Discord on two separate occasions (2018 and 2020) to ever be comfortable repealing a Liberation. 2020 revealed the use of racist language, homophobic/transphobic expressions, anti-Jew commentary, and a proliferation of public NSFW content. They can claim to be non-fascist all they want and they still continuously are exposed as having completely unacceptable material in their community. With no remorse, I might add. I've never once heard Scansinia or a member of KR government express that for what was found in their Discord the second time. Frankly, there are not many regions around that deserve this quite as much as KR. If we end up waiting years for Scansinia to CTE, that's fine by me.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Well, Xor’s word is good enough for me. Keep the Liberation - it’s still a form of pressure to keep their bad behaviour off NS.

Against.