New Civilizations III ( OOC, Always Open )

[G-Tech Corporation]

@ Orostan:

Since we're comparing dick sizes.

Here's a map of the Imperium at year ten since Viktor landed.

(Image)

Please prune China to an analogous area, actually a bit smaller since you're not expanding along rivers. Thanks!

This would be a good argument if China didn't have a much better geography for big empires. I don't need to expand strictly on rivers if I can actually walk to the places I want to go in basically a straight line.

I'm now very interested to hear this argument that logistics are easier where you don't have rivers than where you do.

And to hear you justify a China the size of all of central Europe in ten years after complaining about the unfair standard I'm placing on you after I've shown you exactly how large the Imperium was at the same point in its development.

Baited breath.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Okay, but I don't need "competent" people I need good enough people.

Maybe instead of making assertions you could make arguments.

And your good enough is people who can cast iron and turn out low grade weapons and tools. I see nothing wrong with this. But don't pretend that won't have knock on effects for quality - especially if your good enough people are then, from their limited and deeply flawed knowledge, training people even more shabbily than they themselves have been trained.

[Joohan]

Ladies, you're both beautiful, but could we please reserve this disagreement for tg?

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ladies, you're both beautiful, but could we please reserve this disagreement for tg?

inarticulate sounds of frustration

[Orostan]

This would be a good argument if China didn't have a much better geography for big empires. I don't need to expand strictly on rivers if I can actually walk to the places I want to go in basically a straight line.

I'm now very interested to hear this argument that logistics are easier where you don't have rivers than where you do.

And to hear you justify a China the size of all of central Europe in ten years after complaining about the unfair standard I'm placing on you after I've shown you exactly how large the Imperium was at the same point in its development.

Baited breath.

Central Europe is full of mountains and hills and other boundaries, the northern Chinese plain is flat and fertile land. There is a reason China tended to host the largest settled empires in the world for thousands of years.

Okay, but I don't need "competent" people I need good enough people.

Maybe instead of making assertions you could make arguments.

And your good enough is people who can cast iron and turn out low grade weapons and tools. I see nothing wrong with this. But don't pretend that won't have knock on effects for quality - especially if your good enough people are then, from their limited and deeply flawed knowledge, training people even more shabbily than they themselves have been trained.

I think the best smiths I have would be the ones doing the training, and I was thinking of making a common characteristic of Chinese soldiers to carry spare halberd heads on their belts. It would be unique and make sense. But, in general, I think the quality issues would not be so obvious. I think I rarely fight enemies with weapons that could cause mine to break, but when I do the quality of my weapons would become more apparent and replacements for halberd heads and swords would be in more demand.

Ladies, you're both beautiful, but could we please reserve this disagreement for tg?

k.

[Joohan]

Oh, and what do you think has just occurred? I can assure you, that only the Imperium is affected by it.

I have several theories.

Either that a variolation was contaminated, or that the Blessing has a new strain, or that the Red Plague has a new strain.

One is the most plausible, but won't effect anywhere near thousands.

Two is very bad for the world, since if this new strain can outcompete the old strain, 20% of Sumeria and Egypt dies.

Three is very bad for the world on an unprecedented scale, since without a strain to protect from the Plague, humanity dies by 20% per eight days eventually.

The other premise is that there were ineffective variolations, and so some people were exposed that thought they were safe. That I had intended to RP anyway, but I don't think lines up with your several years and thousands of deaths.

Hmm, I'll not tell you right away - but I'm sure you'll be able to guess given its parameters. Infection rate across the continent is not increasing, and these fatalities seemingly attributed to the red death suffered by the supposedly cured will only begin occurring a few years from now.

It has real world precedent.

Given a short while in the IC, I'm sure Viktor will be able to piece together what's occuring

[G-Tech Corporation]

Hmm, I'll not tell you right away - but I'm sure you'll be able to guess given its parameters. Infection rate across the continent is not increasing, and these fatalities seemingly attributed to the red death suffered by the supposedly cured will only begin occurring a few years from now.

It has real world precedent.

Given a short while in the IC, I'm sure Viktor will be able to piece together what's occuring

Ah, I see. I thought your post was talking in the present day ICly, not in the future.

[Joohan]

In regards to infectivity of the red plague, as I've said before - the max number of deaths possible can not exceed 20% total population. This, given total failure on part of any state to react to the plague. I can assure you, that given the actions undertaken by all parties, that no one is reaching such catastrophic proportions.

Hm. I'm not sure I follow. If the Red Plague kills even 1% of those it infects, and doesn't produce any immunity within the infected population, what prevents it from returning to claim more lives? The death rate in such circumstances isn't limited by any factor save time, and only increases over time.

I'd also generically note though that the bar for societal collapse is commonly stated as 5% casualties within the course of a year. 20% will absolutely destroy any given state.

Yes I understand quite well that given time and volume of spread the red death will eventually lay waste to Europe ( given the parameters I ser up) - in a realistic scenario.

However, the red death isnt a real disease. I was quite deliberate in making up a disease to have for this event. A real world disease would have factors beyond my control, and could potentially actually wipe out some civilizations. With a fake disease, however, one whose parameters I control, I can make up potential - ensuring that it doesnt whole sale wipe out any civilization.

The plague event is meant to stir things up for the European auths, not destroy them.

[Joohan]

Hmm, I'll not tell you right away - but I'm sure you'll be able to guess given its parameters. Infection rate across the continent is not increasing, and these fatalities seemingly attributed to the red death suffered by the supposedly cured will only begin occurring a few years from now.

It has real world precedent.

Given a short while in the IC, I'm sure Viktor will be able to piece together what's occuring

Ah, I see. I thought your post was talking in the present day ICly, not in the future.

That post was present day - there is going to be a sudden spike in cases of supposed infection, but less than a tenth of those will die. The new wave of death will take about 1 to 2 years to occur.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yes I understand quite well that given time and volume of spread the red death will eventually lay waste to Europe ( given the parameters I ser up) - in a realistic scenario.

Really I'm less concerned about Europe, and more concerned about the world, period. If a disease which produces no viral immunity shows up in say, China, or North America, in places where people have no access to variolation and sympathetic vectors for protection - well, those people just die until they go below a certain population density. And that density is very, very low.

[Orostan]

Yes I understand quite well that given time and volume of spread the red death will eventually lay waste to Europe ( given the parameters I ser up) - in a realistic scenario.

Really I'm less concerned about Europe, and more concerned about the world, period. If a disease which produces no viral immunity shows up in say, China, or North America, in places where people have no access to variolation and sympathetic vectors for protection - well, those people just die until they go below a certain population density. And that density is very, very low.

When it shows up in China the country will flip its shit. As an actual person I am terrified of disease and I assume my author would be too. As soon as something that's obviously a plague shows up whatever city it's from will be quarantined - especially because my author doesn't know that he is immune to everything and has a wife and little children to think about.

[Joohan]

Yes I understand quite well that given time and volume of spread the red death will eventually lay waste to Europe ( given the parameters I ser up) - in a realistic scenario.

Really I'm less concerned about Europe, and more concerned about the world, period. If a disease which produces no viral immunity shows up in say, China, or North America, in places where people have no access to variolation and sympathetic vectors for protection - well, those people just die until they go below a certain population density. And that density is very, very low.

Well, the red death is something which could really only take off in places with significant t urbanization. It isnt libel to spread very far given a neolithic environment.

Given contact with other civilizations though, they begin to have the advantage of having authors who can ar least somewhat understand the necessary precautions which need to be dealt out. Dont think that only Europe will be receiving a plague event - given time and great enough expansion, every civ will eventually be hit by one.

[Orostan]

Really I'm less concerned about Europe, and more concerned about the world, period. If a disease which produces no viral immunity shows up in say, China, or North America, in places where people have no access to variolation and sympathetic vectors for protection - well, those people just die until they go below a certain population density. And that density is very, very low.

Well, the red death is something which could really only take off in places with significant t urbanization. It isnt libel to spread very far given a neolithic environment.

Given contact with other civilizations though, they begin to have the advantage of having authors who can ar least somewhat understand the necessary precautions which need to be dealt out. Dont think that only Europe will be receiving a plague event - given time and great enough expansion, every civ will eventually be hit by one.

uh-oh

[Ralnis]

Time to genocide Mesopotamia then.

[UniversalCommons]

Lets say you have your infection team to deal with the plague.

One of the problems which we are having is that Varna is smack dab in the middle of everything. It spreads outward in a circle. There is no chokepoint where it can be stopped if it starts in Varna. I imagine people start running when the hospitals overflow. They spread out into the countryside which something I did describe and they build walled compounds for the scholars to stay in which keep other people out like The Farm or The Square. A variety of compounds.

The disease is spread out. The first steps are the doctors who tell people go get some country air, stay away from large crowds, be safe, eat right, clean yourself with soap. Soap was introduced fairly early.

In the hospitals, The Temple of the Body Parts which runs many of the temple hospitals decides they have to seal up the hospitals when they start overflowing to contain the disease. They turn into charnel houses.

Which place has the least problem, Salt-- they are excessively clean and far enough away from Varna to seal themselves off. A few seal themselves off before the official government quarantine.

The government is slow. All governments are slow. The background of the previous plague, the pigeon plague, some knowledge of Egypt and Macedonian medicine, the presence of soap, the move into the countryside are what saves a considerable amount of people. A single idea spread out abandon public places is what saves a lot of people initially. It is the most important first step.

A death ship floats out of Varna to the Aegean, a few of them. No one is alive just corpses. Two cycles of the plague between ports with no escape, no one is alive. It terrifies the Aegean. They stop letting people in. The reaction of the islands is to shut down a lot faster than the mainland. They see Sand isolate people on islands, again everyone dies. The ships became spooky and terrifying tales. You can't escape. You will die. It hits a ship and everyone on board has no chance. They seal their borders allowing people to dock off islands for weeks, then full inspections before any person is let out and then only to a waiting area where they can discuss trade.

Ships are left out at sea for weeks of time to make sure no one has the plague. They are scrubbed immaculately. There are no chances. If you don't stop people coming you die. Scrub your ship and wait three weeks in port.

The people rage at Oak, why haven't you done anything. Why isn't the quarantine on time, how dare you cut up the bodies of the dead. Anger spreads. The center rages. Varna turns against Oak, but survives because of soap, masks, and some doctors from Mesopotamia, an herbalist from Thrace, the Daughters of Penelope. Somehow, they make it through with strange herbal mixtures, home made masks, gloves, and leather suits. Varna aligns with Salt seeking to help the people on the coast. Olive dies, a ghost town filled with dogs near the coast. Varna and Salt demand a greater say in the Nestos League. The Nestos League needs to change, get rid of Victor Spear, heretic. Victor Spear is exiled. Salt starts exporting masks and quarantine methods through the Plain Folk.

Oak has the most resources along with Abdera. They are able to stave off the plague a little bit before the full quarantine.

Not all cities are so lucky. Leaf, a Cucuteni settlement dies because they share all their food. The Temple of the Body Parts rages against Oak, they are the enemy, they cut up the body to learn how to treat the living. Sacrilege. In Oak, they create a mix of herbs to treat the whole body including the liver and brain from the research with dead bodies.

Victor Spear is sent out to seek resources, grain, protective equipment, allies for the remainder of the League. It holds together, but is more combative, Oak tries to stay the center, but Abdera is rising, they are securing herbs, food, medicine from Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Aegean so the population does not starve. Victor brings back texts on medicine from the Aegean, Mesopotamia, and Egypt. In Cyrene, he arranges for the shipment of herbs and protective equipment to Abdera.

The Temple of the Body Parts convinces Sofia and some other cities to break from Oak, the scholars form the Order of the Brilliant Pillar to counter Oak. Oak supports heresy, they should allow more freedom for their scholars. There is internal division on whether Victor Spear saves with medicine or is a terrible heretic.

There is conflict over whether the League is the problem or Oak is the problem. Most want to keep the Nestos League, but change the capital to Abdera and make the league more of a servant of the people. There are more people than the scholars who brought down a plague, it should be the peoples council, not the scholars council. The Peoples Council of Abdera with more representatives from Varna and Salt. Staro Zagora and Sofia rejoin them with a diminished role for Oak.

Time passes, the formula of herbs improves to help people survive the plague, more protective equipment is made, a theory based on bad air is created to describe how the plague spreads.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Ladies, you're both beautiful, but could we please reserve this disagreement for tg?

I’ve been saying for over a year that this RP needs stronger regulations to cut down on the OOC bickering. :p

[Ralnis]

My next post will be Luther burning down Ur and freeing slaves. Leading to the largest slave revolt in the RP.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ladies, you're both beautiful, but could we please reserve this disagreement for tg?

I’ve been saying for over a year that this RP needs stronger regulations to cut down on the OOC bickering.

Pfft. Debate is healthy.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

My next post will be Luther burning down Ur and freeing slaves. Leading to the largest slave revolt in the RP.

Monkas

... and here I thought you were invading me

[Ralnis]

Imagine the blood of the slavers flowing in the river-streets of one of the largest city's in the world. Luther finally had enough and tore down the Empire before moving to Congo and starting over.

[Endem]

My next post will be Luther burning down Ur and freeing slaves. Leading to the largest slave revolt in the RP.

That's new, seems like Arabian civs might be more friendly if you do that!

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Pfft. Debate is healthy.

For those who have the energy to engage in it, perhaps.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Pfft. Debate is healthy.

For those who have the energy to engage in it, perhaps.

Well, you gotta debate some things. Like how new China encompasses 700,000 square miles of territory thirteen years after landing, when the nearest civilization in scale is the Imperium at 120,000 square miles, thirty years after landing. 'tis worthy of a debate, energy or no.

[Joohan]

I’ve been saying for over a year that this RP needs stronger regulations to cut down on the OOC bickering.

Pfft. Debate is healthy.

Indeed, too much regulation is stifling to creativity. Bickering is acceptable so long as it's civil and reasonable.

Though, the recent debate has brought up a good point which I should address: the nature of control.

By what metric can a civilization declare that it effectively controls a place? Mistakes were certainly made in the early days of this RP, were in many of us were concerned with painting the map and empire more than the nitty gritty of true world building - something that i'll seek to rectify in the future. To actually claim ownership of a place and it's people is quite a daunting feat to claim, when placed into perspective, especially given our current ground level setting.

Hierarchy, infrastructure, logistics, connection - in the future, these are the four criteria by which I will judge the level of a civilization's control of a place.

Hierarchy: Have you a set and permanent leadership structure in place which is capable of taking orders from outside superiors and handing those orders down to the lowest level? Having colonists and or a mission in a region does not equate to actually have a set structure leadership capable of executing the will of Author's or their polities - having a mayor with the martial and material capability to enact his will, and who is subservient to superiors in your capital, does. A ship needs a captain and a crew who will listen to him.

Infrastructure: Are you able to effectively move through this area without too great a hinderance? If it takes you days to journey over short distances, for any number of terrain, weather, or geographic reasons, then you are incapable of asserting your will upon a region. If it takes police three days to show up to a crime scene then you'd essentially just be living in anarchy

Logistics: How easy is it to get in and out of this place for your personnel, resource caravans, troops, and valuable data? Conquering a region isn't as simple as moving your army in and planting a flag - this is the neolithic era. Whatever new place you've just marched into is still essentially the same as it has been for the past couple millions years or so. Conquest, in this day and age, is an investment - a very long term, resource and time consuming investment. Turning a forest in fertile plains and the people who lived there into farmers isn't something that happens in only a few years, and your home base ( for lack of a better term ) will be footing almost the entire cost. Are you able to afford the expense of moving people and resources out of this region without tearing apart your own home territories? Why pull out 3$ from an ATM if the service charge is gonna 4$

Connection: Does the local population work with you? If every time you leave the fort the locals start shooting arrows at you, you don't control that place. If the locals refuse to work with you, or just ignore your dictates, you don't control that place. Consent of the governed a real thing, even in our uber authoritarian nightmare empires. Locals must be willing and motivated to work with you, this requires a lot of trust and PR. Specifically, local powerbrokers must be willing to work with you. Just because some farmer may like what your merchants are selling, doesn't mean that they're going to ignore the no contact order handed down from their chief. Locals with power are the ones who get things done, and if you aren't on their good side, you're not getting anything done.

I would highly suggest yall look at Logistics, in regards toward future ideas about conquest.

Edit: and this goes without saying, you need all of the above factors covered at the same time in order to control a place

[UniversalCommons]

Pfft. Debate is healthy.

Indeed, too much regulation is stifling to creativity. Bickering is acceptable so long as it's civil and reasonable.

Though, the recent debate has brought up a good point which I should address: the nature of control.

By what metric can a civilization declare that it effectively controls a place? Mistakes were certainly made in the early days of this RP, were in many of us were concerned with painting the map and empire more than the nitty gritty of true world building - something that i'll seek to rectify in the future. To actually claim ownership of a place and it's people is quite a daunting feat to claim, when placed into perspective, especially given our current ground level setting.

Hierarchy, infrastructure, logistics, connection - in the future, these are the four criteria by which I will judge the level of a civilization's control of a place.

Hierarchy: Have you a set and permanent leadership structure in place which is capable of taking orders from outside superiors and handing those orders down to the lowest level? Having colonists and or a mission in a region does not equate to actually have a set structure leadership capable of executing the will of Author's or their polities - having a mayor with the martial and material capability to enact his will, and who is subservient to superiors in your capital, does. A ship needs a captain and a crew who will listen to him.

Infrastructure: Are you able to effectively move through this area without too great a hinderance? If it takes you days to journey over short distances, for any number of terrain, weather, or geographic reasons, then you are incapable of asserting your will upon a region. If it takes police three days to show up to a crime scene then you'd essentially just be living in anarchy

Logistics: How easy is it to get in and out of this place for your personnel, resource caravans, troops, and valuable data? Conquering a region isn't as simple as moving your army in and planting a flag - this is the neolithic era. Whatever new place you've just marched into is still essentially the same as it has been for the past couple millions years or so. Conquest, in this day and age, is an investment - a very long term, resource and time consuming investment. Turning a forest in fertile plains and the people who lived there into farmers isn't something that happens in only a few years, and your home base ( for lack of a better term ) will be footing almost the entire cost. Are you able to afford the expense of moving people and resources out of this region without tearing apart your own home territories? Why pull out 3$ from an ATM if the service charge is gonna 4$

Connection: Does the local population work with you? If every time you leave the fort the locals start shooting arrows at you, you don't control that place. If the locals refuse to work with you, or just ignore your dictates, you don't control that place. Consent of the governed a real thing, even in our uber authoritarian nightmare empires. Locals must be willing and motivated to work with you, this requires a lot of trust and PR. Specifically, local powerbrokers must be willing to work with you. Just because some farmer may like what your merchants are selling, doesn't mean that they're going to ignore the no contact order handed down from their chief. Locals with power are the ones who get things done, and if you aren't on their good side, you're not getting anything done.

I would highly suggest yall look at Logistics, in regards toward future ideas about conquest.

Edit: and this goes without saying, you need all of the above factors covered at the same time in order to control a place

Of course, you also need the mandate of heaven as it is called, too many acts of god like plagues, invasions, accidents of nature will remove your leader no matter how good your leadership. Having this makes it much easier to do everything else.