The Arrowverse Thread

[Eahland]

Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?

[Ameriganastan]

Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?

Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?

[Eahland]

Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?

Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?

I'm assuming the actual answer to that is "because Rachel Skarsten has a contract, and they can't fire her just because her character's motivation up and quit." What I don't get is why she's now the main protagonist of the show, especially after they got rid of the Batwoman who had conflicts of interest in actually bringing her serial-killing ass to justice, and replaced her with a Batwoman who explicitly wants her dead. They had a perfect opportunity to throw out all the nonsense that made the first season so incredibly dumb and start over, but instead they've decided to focus obsessively on the nonsense and not give the new girl a chance to get out from under Kate Kane's shadow.

(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)

[Ameriganastan]

Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?

I'm assuming the actual answer to that is "because Rachel Skarsten has a contract, and they can't fire her just because her character's motivation up and quit." What I don't get is why she's now the main protagonist of the show, especially after they got rid of the Batwoman who had conflicts of interest in actually bringing her serial-killing ass to justice, and replaced her with a Batwoman who explicitly wants her dead. They had a perfect opportunity to throw out all the nonsense that made the first season so incredibly dumb and start over, but instead they've decided to focus obsessively on the nonsense and not give the new girl a chance to get out from under Kate Kane's shadow.

(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)

Yeah, it really feels like they're just using Ryan as a stopgap until we get new Kate. Which sucks, cause I actually like Ryan better.

[Cannot think of a name]

I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.

[Juristonia]

I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.

It's reaching Arrow's "But what if I'm bad because DaRkNeSs iN mE" levels.

[The Restored Danelaw]

I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.

It's reaching Arrow's "But what if I'm bad because DaRkNeSs iN mE" levels.

Didn't he literally spend the first 2-3 seasons cutting a bloody highway through the city's criminals (and oftentime bystanders?)

[Juristonia]

And another 5-6 seasons being a mopey dick about it, yes.

Don't get me wrong, the moral ambiguity isn't what bothered me about the show. The way they went about it did.

[Ameriganastan]

On the upside, at least Cisco has finally stopped being such a mopey tool. Ever since his new nerdy sidekick came along, he's been acting like the Cisco I used to like.

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

Just caught up with last week's Flash.

And were they seriously just gonna let Abra Kadabra go? Like I get it, tragic backstory and all. But he still murdered two people. And they called him a hero...not feeling it.

---

Well, Batwoman finally has a fun villain. More Black Mask, please.

I think Batman-verse shows (Gotham, Batwoman) are goos with their Black Mask villain. In fact, same thing happened with Red Hood movie and the Arkhamverse game. A bit off topic there, but yeah.

[Upper Yationd]

Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

[Cannot think of a name]

Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

The CW turned Green Arrow into archery Batman but without the counter culture/critique streak he's had in the comics.

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

The CW turned Green Arrow into archery Batman but without the counter culture/critique streak he's had in the comics.

CW Arrow is just too gloomy for me.

[Ameriganastan]

Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.

[The Restored Danelaw]

Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.

To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.

[Ameriganastan]

Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.

To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.

It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly became Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.

[Ameriganastan]

May 2nd! Best show is finally back.

[Eahland]

To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.

It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly become Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.

Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."

[The Restored Danelaw]

It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly become Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.

Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."

(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.

[Eahland]

Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."

(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.

I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)

[The Restored Danelaw]

(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.

I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)

Given he's supposed to be the Batman of his 'verse (something that only becomes more hilarious and utterly befuddling now that Batman actually does/did exist in Arrow's universe), I'm convinced that it was yet another problem of the "genius character written by absolute mouth breathers" variety.

[Eahland]

I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)

Given he's supposed to be the Batman of his 'verse (something that only becomes more hilarious and utterly befuddling now that Batman actually does/did exist in Arrow's universe), I'm convinced that it was yet another problem of the "genius character written by absolute mouth breathers" variety.

I think Crisis was a mistake. There's a lot of stuff in the Arrowverse — and not just "how is Green Murder Batman the 'first hero' and all that nonsense when apparently Actual Batman already had an established career in Gotham when Kate was a little girl (and note that Clark's career is now part of the history of the merged Earth, too) — that kind of made sense when it wasn't actually one universe, but a bunch of them loosely linked together, and you could get the Justice League together if you really needed to, but it took enough space-time shenanigans that it wasn't really worth it except for major continuity-threatening events, that doesn't make any sense now that they're all on one Earth. Especially when you've got characters like Barry and Kara who are fast enough that they can pop across the continent to another show, do a buddy a solid, and be back to their own show before the end of the commercial break. Like that Arrow episode back when where Barry showed up long enough to speedblitz a castle full of ninjas and then was like, "I left the boss fight for you so you don't feel useless. I got dinner on the stove back in Central City. Catch ya later."

And obviously the top-tier heroes are busy with their own shit. Barry's gotta wangst and Kara has to keep her BFF from going bad (oh yeah and something something Lex Luthor whatever), and they can't be running around solving everyone else's problems all the time. But there's a lot of stuff going on in various shows that's big enough that we should be seeing splashes of it in the other shows, and we don't. Where are all the people using Obsidian Platinum VR lenses in Central City? If extraterrestrial immigrants are common enough to be an allegory for the regular terrestrial kind, why don't we see them in Central City or Gotham or Freeland? Why aren't any of the various reporters (seriously, does anyone in this universe have a job that isn't "superhero", "reporter", "scientist", or "cop"?) on the other shows reporting on the shit going down in Freeland? How does all the "omg a girl superhero thats unpossible" bullshit on Batwoman make any sense when Supergirl is possibly the most powerful being on the planet — and post-Crisis, always has been? (Seriously, every single superteam has at least one woman, and I think Team Flash is the only one without at least one LGBT hero.) Why haven't Kara or Barry even mentioned the apparent death of one of their fellow Paragons of Whatever? Do you have to shoot them with arrows to get in the Paragon group text? Why wasn't the Bat-team consulting with Brainy or Caitlin about Ryan's Kryptonite poisoning? (Besides the fact that they're idiots, I mean.)

[Ameriganastan]

Wow, The Flash brought in

Chillblaine?

That's a deep cut right there. He's like way down the totem pole of

ice themed bad guys.

[Eahland]

(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)

I actually kept a running tally this week.

S2E10 - "Time Off For Good Behavior"
"Ryan" and/or "Wilder", not counting references to Enigma, who is apparently "Dr. Ryan", because their nominal main character doesn't even get to have a name that isn't overloaded: 3
"Kate": 6

At least the part of the episode that Ryan actually got to be in had a plot that wasn't all about Kate.

Wow, The Flash brought in

Chillblaine?

That's a deep cut right there. He's like way down the totem pole of

ice themed bad guys.

Amused because they keep saying it like it's "Chill Blaine".

I hope Killer Frost isn't going away for good. She's a lot more fun than original-flavor Caitlin.