NATION

PASSWORD

Commend NAZI EUROPE

A chamber dedicated to the dissemination of inter-regional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.

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Ardchoille
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Founded: Apr 18, 2004
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ardchoille » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:02 pm

See, this is why proposals should be drafted and discussed before they're submitted.

This proposal contains a technical flaw. As is common practice when this happens, I'm noting it here to give the author a chance to send a GHR requesting its removal so that he may submit a corrected version. By doing it that way, he won't have any "deleted prop" recorded on his nation.

The problem is this clause:
Agreeing that merely advancing the cause of Nazism through speech rather than actions is not inappropriate;


Sorry, but we're not going to spend hours discussing the repeal of one proposal with a RW reference, only to bring to vote another proposal with a RW reference. "Nazism" in that sentence is a RW reference.

It can be corrected by connecting the commendation to the ideology that the region practises in NationStates. (Note that "their cause of Nazism" will not be considered sufficient, nor will "NE Nazism". You must make sure to clarify what it is they stand for in NationStates that is, in your opinion, worthy of commendation. Otherwise it is still open to being read as a RW reference.)

To make this clear in a less emotionally charged way, consider socialism. There are plenty of socialist nations in NS and socialism, as a political ideology, is recognised (without definition) in several parts of the game. Suppose, however, that a region practises a form of Fabian Socialism. They can call it that in their conversations, but if they become the subject of a C&C, the proposer will have to describe it as "gradualist socialism" or "legislative socialism" or some such term, because the Fabians, and the Fabius from whom they drew inspiration, are RW, not NS.

BTW 1: "fascistic" gets by on the same grounds as "socialistic", "communistic", "democratic", etcetera, though I believe the correct adjective is simply "fascist".

BTW 2: Sedgistan (who is turning out to be almost as much a Rulesmeister as Fris, damn his eyes :D) has pointed out that the Rule 4 reference says:
Note, however, that basing your proposal solely on a Real World ideology without reference to NationStates has been illegal since the introduction of Rule 4.


He notes that this proposal has reference to matters other than the region's ideology.

The point of that line in the rule is the "RW", which is and continues to be illegal under R4. But I agree that the phrasing can be misinterpreted, so I'll clarify it to ensure that it can be understood only as meaning, "including in your proposal a solely Real World ideology without explaining the way it is practised in NationStates ...".

So: Saddams Kuwait, you can submit a GHR, have this version of the proposal deleted and then begin work on the corrected version.

Or you can leave it alone, but in its present form it will be deleted before it can come to vote, and that will lead to a notation on your nation. The general rule is three such notations before that particular puppet is expelled from the WA (though you may, of course, return with another puppet).
Last edited by Ardchoille on Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Durkadurkiranistan II
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Founded: Sep 19, 2010
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Durkadurkiranistan II » Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:20 pm

Durkadurkiranistan II wrote:LOL. Saddams Kuwait deserves a medal for inadvertently crushing any hope of a repeal (not to mention he is one in a long line of great middle eastern themed nations 8)). Good stuff.


To clarify I am strongly against the passage of this resolution. I was merely pointing out my amusement at the situation.
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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:54 pm

Or you can leave it alone, but in its present form it will be deleted before it can come to vote, and that will lead to a notation on your nation.


Agreed that this commendation "could be taken" to contain a real world reference, should you choose to take it that way.

However, the action described above may lead to the suspicion that mod powers are being used to remove an inconvenient proposal put forward at an inconvenient time in an attempt to ease the passing of the repeal of proposal #3. And that would certainly lead to cries of mod bias.

edit: given that it seems unlikely that this proposal will get enough support to reach teh floor of the house, is there a problem in just letting it run and die a natural death?
Last edited by Flemingovia on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:19 am

The Republic of Saddams Kuwait
Saved. 6 hours ago
Hi I noticed you like NAZI EUROPE. Please support our resolution "Commend NAZI EUROPE" also. Thankz.
Heil.


A telegram I recently received. He's treading a thin line here gentlemen, and is clearly leaning towards flame baiting.
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Flemingovia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:22 am

:unsure: All i see is someone canvassing support for their resolution. How is it flamebaiting?
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Mallorea and Riva
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:26 am

Saddams Kuwait wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote::palm:
This cuts the likelihood of the repeal passing by half.
This should have been drafted. You present no examples, testimony, or any proof. And simply being stoic is not worthy of a commendation. If it was then we would all be worthy of them for being stoic in the face of oppression at different times.


I will be telegramming every regional delegate so that they can rest assured that there will be a commendation to follow if they do vote to repeal the condemnation. :hug: :)


^ This
He's doing it to provoke the people who voted for the repeal. He's from your region Flemingovia, get control of him if possible.
Mods can you just tell him he's being unnecessarily self-righteous? I recognize that Saddams can't be punished for it, but honestly it'd make me feel a bit better.
Last edited by Mallorea and Riva on Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
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Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
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Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:45 am

If the mods were to censure people in NS every time they were self righteous they would never get any sleep.

No, I do not think I shall intervene in this instance. There are two possibilities here:

1. It is a serious commendation, in which case he has the right to bring it. Free speech, and all that.

2. It is a tactic designed to spoil the chances of the repeal, in which case it is a rather clever bit of politicking. Since your side is the one that has advocated machiavellian statesmanship, i am sure you can appreciate the use of a shrewd tactic. I have been playing NS since 2003 and it would not have occurred to me.

I would appreciate a TG from Saddam's Kuwait after this is all over to tell me in confidence which of the above is correct. Just out of curiosity.
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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:56 am

Flemingovia wrote:If the mods were to censure people in NS every time they were self righteous they would never get any sleep.

No, I do not think I shall intervene in this instance. There are two possibilities here:

1. It is a serious commendation, in which case he has the right to bring it. Free speech, and all that.

2. It is a tactic designed to spoil the chances of the repeal, in which case it is a rather clever bit of politicking. Since your side is the one that has advocated machiavellian statesmanship, i am sure you can appreciate the use of a shrewd tactic. I have been playing NS since 2003 and it would not have occurred to me.

I would appreciate a TG from Saddam's Kuwait after this is all over to tell me in confidence which of the above is correct. Just out of curiosity.


I'm not asking for censorship, I just want to see them facepalm at this. Just once.
I don't recall machiavellian statesmanship being brought up, but spamming the queue to try to shoot down another resolution is akin to spamming my region's message board, it's annoying and unnecessary, the telegram was too far.
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Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:01 am

I thought contacting regional delegates was a normal way of gathering support for a WA resolution. It would have been more suspicious if he had NOT canvassed support.
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Quelesh
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Ex-Nation

Postby Quelesh » Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:38 am

I don't support this commendation, but I find it interesting that a mere reference to Nazism would make it illegal. I would say that Nazism certainly exists in the NS world. "Nazi" is not a proper name or a reference to a proper name, like Fabian. It is simply a contraction of "national socialist," which is a political ideology. If he said "national socialism" instead of "Nazism" in the proposal, would that make it legal?
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Cinistra
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cinistra » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:18 am

This proposal lacks sufficient evidence why Nazi Europe should be commended, as well as their condemnation lacks sufficient evidence.
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>Can I invade other people's regions?

Yes. The practice of "region crashing," where a group of nations all move to a region with the aim of seizing the WA Delegate position, is part of the game. Certain groups within NationStates are particularly adroit at this, and can attack very quickly.
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Ardchoille
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Founded: Apr 18, 2004
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ardchoille » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:05 am

Flemingovia wrote:Agreed that this commendation "could be taken" to contain a real world reference, should you choose to take it that way.

However, the action described above may lead to the suspicion that mod powers are being used to remove an inconvenient proposal put forward at an inconvenient time in an attempt to ease the passing of the repeal of proposal #3. And that would certainly lead to cries of mod bias.

edit: given that it seems unlikely that this proposal will get enough support to reach teh floor of the house, is there a problem in just letting it run and die a natural death?


If mods were to proceed on the basis of "will this look like mod bias", we'd be doing nothing, because very few players see mod responses involving themselves as justified (I myself wasn't spamming that time, really I wasn't, I was totally misunderstood, it was entirely on topic, no, really. :D )

As to "an attempt to ease the passing of the repeal" ... Repeal "Condemn NAZI EUROPE". For: 564. Against: 2,228. ... I think you over-estimate mod powers or under-estimate the voting system. If I were trying to ease it, I'd just shut up and not give this one any free air time.

Try it this way:

Agreeing that merely advancing the cause of the Tea Party through speech rather than actions is not inappropriate;


Compare that with,

Agreeing that merely advancing the cause of lower taxes and smaller government through speech rather than actions is not inappropriate;
.

The first is a simple Real World name which has no immediate reference to NationStates nations in general. The second is a description of policies (possibly an inaccurate description of policies, but bear with me, I'm not American) that an NS nation or region based on the RW idea of the Tea Party might be following. It also explains why the proposer wants to commend (or condemn) that aspect of the nation/region.

Why not let it die a natural death? Because I'm trying to fix in SC proposal writers' minds that RW references are Bad and will make your toenails drop off.

@Quelesh: I'd have to tap into the Hive Mind for that. If political ideology were the only reason for a C&C, I'd be urging my colleagues to reject it, on the grounds that condemning or commending a nation/region solely for holding an ideology -- without specifying whether they act on it or how they act on it -- is much the same as C&Cing it for being a nation/region. Like C&Cing humans for having skin. There'd also be the "copycat" aspect : whether it would set a precedent for C&Cing democratic/communist/capitalist/theocratic/monarchist/matriarchal/whatever nations/regions on the name of their ideology alone.

OTOH, if naming the nation's ideology were just one relatively empty clause among a bunch of others that actually said something, I'd be inclined to let it ride on the others' coal-tails.

EDIT: Mallorea and Riva, submitting one proposal isn't spamming, and sending proposal TGs is spamming only if the WFE forbids it.
Last edited by Ardchoille on Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ideological Bulwark #35
The more scandalous charges were suppressed; the vicar of Christ was accused only of piracy, rape, sodomy, murder and incest. -- Edward Gibbon on the schismatic Pope John XXIII (1410–1415).

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Pythria
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Founded: Feb 26, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Pythria » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:35 pm

Mallorea and Riva wrote:He's doing it to provoke the people who voted for the repeal.
Of course. This may be wrong, but when I saw this, I had a very strong feeling that SK was a puppet created for the sole purpose of destroying this resolution. That telegram you just posted pretty much confirmed it.
Last edited by Pythria on Wed Dec 31, 1969 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ardchoille
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Founded: Apr 18, 2004
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ardchoille » Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:58 pm

The thing is, though, that the rules can govern the outward appearances -- the how -- but the why is up to the players. It's up to you guys whether the SC in action is made up of noble legislators encouraging all nations to reach for their better selves and chiding those who slip, or whether it's always a seething cauldron of conniving powerbrokers, or whether it swings between the two, depending on circumstances and personalities.

Me, I'm here to make sure that, if you decide to start assassinating each other, you do it politely, using the proper forms. :p
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Belschaft
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Belschaft » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:10 pm

The delegate of the Confederate Republic slowly stood. Pausing, he prepared to state his weighty opinion on this vital matter.

"Seriously? Not this bollocks again..... wait...."

The delegate leaned down to read read the proposal again quickly. He then proceeded to double other in laughter, and an aide promptly sought medical assistance.
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Mousebumples
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Mousebumples » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:14 pm

Ardchoille wrote:Me, I'm here to make sure that, if you decide to start assassinating each other, you do it politely, using the proper forms. :p

Man, assassination by paper cut? Ouch! Someone's feeling vengeful today ....
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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:50 am

This resolution may be a "spoiler", but I have no actual evidence of that. Do you, beyond mere suspicion?

Since it now seems likely that this resolution will not gather enough delegate support to come to vote, i can see no real need to debate it further.
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Castrouba
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Founded: Nov 21, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Castrouba » Sun Nov 21, 2010 6:11 am

NEVER TRUST A NAZI!! [size=200]NEVER

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The Republic of Lanos
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Founded: Apr 17, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Republic of Lanos » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:30 pm

Besides, WASC#3 maybe illegal due to rule 4, but hey, there were no specific SC rules at the time. The old veterans remember GA rules applying until the Evil Mod Council set SC rules down.

So as long as people hate Nazism, it won't die.

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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:07 pm

I See the resolution has disappeared. Can I ask whether the proposer asked for it to be withdrawn, a mod withdrew it, or it simply ran out of time without sufficient support being achieved?
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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:30 am

Flemingovia wrote:I See the resolution has disappeared. Can I ask whether the proposer asked for it to be withdrawn, a mod withdrew it, or it simply ran out of time without sufficient support being achieved?


I'm fairly certain it ran out of time.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
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The Holy Orange Panda
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Founded: May 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Holy Orange Panda » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:38 am

Although i personally agree with the recent repeal of the condemnation i believe that a commendation should not be given to this region :)
The Holy Orange Panda says no
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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:56 am

The Holy Orange Panda wrote:Although i personally agree with the recent repeal of the condemnation i believe that a commendation should not be given to this region :)
The Holy Orange Panda says no
Queen Zoey II :lol2:


Some of us have reason to believe this commendation only exists to annoy those who wished to repeal the condemnation.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "I don't think chatting with someone over the Internet about casual topics falls under faithful or unfaithful. :<"

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Flemingovia
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Founded: Dec 22, 2003
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Flemingovia » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:13 am

So you keep saying, but you have only ever repeated your accusation, not given any evidence.

What are your "REASONS to believe"?
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Mallorea and Riva
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Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:16 am

Flemingovia wrote:So you keep saying, but you have only ever repeated your accusation, not given any evidence.

What are your "REASONS to believe"?


1 He comes from your region, leading me to believe that this is not a serious proposal,
2 The telegram which he sent out that I previously quoted,
3 and the fact that he isn't here defending it or changing it, he simply lol'd his way through the earlier portions of the debate.
It's over, the commendation is dead, it wasn't serious, let's just move on. It's not relevant either way, except that I don't have respect for the proposer.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
Retired Colonel of DEN Central Command, now defunct
Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
Retired Secretary of Defense of Stargate
Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "I don't think chatting with someone over the Internet about casual topics falls under faithful or unfaithful. :<"

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