Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[The Archregimancy]

The Pope has left Rome, his 4 day trip has begun

This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.

Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.

I will admit that I didn't know previously that the largest Christian church in Iraq was in communion with Rome until I looked it up just now

Only because the Catholic Church was up to its usual divide and conquer shenanigans in the Middle East and - more through the luck of internecine internal Assyrian politicking than actual goodwill towards Eastern Christians - for once ended up on the winning side. The Chaldean Catholics and Church of the East used to be one and the same church, until a series of difficult to track or explain schisms from the early modern period onwards led to some of the patriarchal lines deciding that attempting to gain recognition for their position from Rome would bolster their position against their erstwhile co-religionists. This Catholic-supported strife played a significant role in the catastrophic weakening of the Church of the East's position in what later became Iraq.

The history is particularly complex, but there has been one deeply ironic outcome: what's now the majority pro-Rome Chaldean Catholic Church is mainly formed out of what was, until the early 19th century, the traditionalist line that refused union with Rome, while what's now the minority traditionalist Assyrian Church of the East is mainly formed out of what was, until the same period, the pro-Catholic unity line (though there are so many schisms and counter-schisms that it's very difficult to keep track).

[Salus Maior]

Yes, which I personally consider heretical.

I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.

[The Archregimancy]

What do you guys think regarding Rastafarianism and Ghost Dance? Valid in their beliefs, totally heretical, not even worthy of serious consideration or debate? I'd post links but I can't figure out how to copy-paste on my phone so just look them up on Wikipedia if you aren't already familiar with them.

Both are mildly interesting historically; Rastafarianism is also interesting culturally given its impact on 20th century Western popular music.

Neither is of any particular relevance to modern Christianity though the tension between the role of Haile Selaisse within Rasta beliefs and Haile Selassie's own status as head of state of an [Oriental] Orthodox country in communion with the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is of passing interest. Rastafarianism will likely survive longer if only because the Ghost Dance had the fundamental and hard to avoid flaw of not protecting its adherents from US military bullets.

[Suriyanakhon]

Not a Christian, but I find them to be really interesting examples of new religious movements which developed out of a cultural melting pot.

I mean you could argue Christianity itself was born out of a cultural melting pot lol.

All religion are really, but I meant out of modern cultures instead of ancient Mediterranean ones.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Yes, which I personally consider heretical.

I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.

Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.

I mean you could argue Christianity itself was born out of a cultural melting pot lol.

All religion are really, but I meant out of modern cultures instead of ancient Mediterranean ones.

Well Zoroastrianism had an influence on Christianity and Persia isn't Mediterranean so nyeh.

[Punished UMN]

What do you guys think regarding Rastafarianism and Ghost Dance? Valid in their beliefs, totally heretical, not even worthy of serious consideration or debate? I'd post links but I can't figure out how to copy-paste on my phone so just look them up on Wikipedia if you aren't already familiar with them.

Both are mildly interesting historically; Rastafarianism is also interesting culturally given its impact on 20th century Western popular music.

Neither is of any particular relevance to modern Christianity though the tension between the role of Haile Selaisse within Rasta beliefs and Haile Selassie's own status as head of state of an [Oriental] Orthodox country in communion with the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is of passing interest. Rastafarianism will likely survive longer if only because the Ghost Dance had the fundamental and hard to avoid flaw of not protecting its adherents from US military bullets.

To be fair, Reformed Ghost Dance theologians could argue that it only provides bulletproofing for the Elect.

[Suriyanakhon]

I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.

Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.

Historically, if memory serves, Islam was seen as a form of Arianism rather than a separate religion, which meant Muhammad was seen more as an arch-heretic rather than a simple non-believer in the medieval period.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.

Historically, if memory serves, Islam was seen as a form of Arianism rather than a separate religion, which meant Muhammad was seen more as an arch-heretic rather than a simple non-believer in the medieval period.

I believe you're correct. I think that view shifted by the time of the Crusades, though.

[Nakena]

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

How much (or less) have the aftermath and turmoil of the Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?

[Salus Maior]

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?

Basically all of it.

[The New California Republic]

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?

According to Wikipedia anyway there is a drop in numbers by about a million, which could easily be attributed to them fleeing the mayhem:

In Iraq, Christians numbered about 1,500,000 in 2003, representing just over 6% of the population of 26 million (from 1.4 million or 8.5% of 16.5 million in 1987; and down from 12% in 1948 in a population of 4.8 million). Since then, it has been estimated that the number of Christians in Iraq have dropped to 500,000+. However, due to a lack of an official census, the number is difficult to estimate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... mographics

[Salus Maior]

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.

Mandaeans are mostly in the southern part of Iraq, as I understand it.

Other reasons for decline aside, they wouldn’t have been as hit hard by ISIS as the Yazidis and Christians were.

That being said, I know a lot more about the Yazidis and Christians than the Mandaeans.

[Lost Memories]

This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.

Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

You and Tyrannia are like thinking this papal visit in Iraq is only about saying "hi" to the christians there, and then leave. (only catholic christians btw, clearly)
It's not only that.

It's also about continuing the collaborative initiatives with the various islamic groups:
Pope to meet top Shia leader Sistani on Iraq visit

Pope Francis is set to be in Iraq from March 5-8, with visits planned to Baghdad, the northern city of Mosul, and Ur.

Pope Francis will meet top Shia religious leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani during the first-ever papal visit to Iraq in March, a senior Catholic cleric told the AFP news agency on Thursday.

Louis Sako, the patriarch of Iraq’s Chaldean Catholic Church, said it would be a “private visit” between the two religious figures “without formalities”.

Sako said he hoped the two figures would sign the document on “human fraternity for world peace”, an interreligious text condemning “extremism” that Pope Francis signed with the leading Sunni scholar, the grand imam of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb, in 2019.

No process ever starts, if no steps are attempted, as little as those steps may be.


And on a purely secular point of view, it's a great opportunity for Iraq to open up to the world, and correct a tarnished image it has gained in the past decades.
Like, most people, some in this same thread, when they hear "Iraq", their reactions is something like "a terrifying place to be, lower than third world (in some scale made up in the west), I would get bombed while walking in the streets"
It is an huge advertising event for the whole Iraq.

The authorities of no christian origin or affiliation, are clearly using the visit of the pope for that.
Pope to visit ancient city of Ur, ‘the cradle of civilization’
Welcome ceremony to the pope, with dances, songs, orchestras and swords. (dances and songs at 17:35)

It's interesting to note that while on aljazeera international(english) the news about the papal visit is at the top, on aljazeera arabic, there is no trace of it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/ (english)
https://www.aljazeera.net/ (arabic)
Just to make it more clear. Which, them getting some positive international visibility, so long they can follow up on it, isn't something to discard either.

I'm hesitant to repeat what Sundiata said, but I wouldn't write it off either. There are at least 3 sides, over which the visit of the pope in Iraq could bring some improvement:
-for christians
-for the relationship between muslims and christians
-for the whole people living in Iraq

[Luminesa]

This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.

Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.

I will admit that I didn't know previously that the largest Christian church in Iraq was in communion with Rome until I looked it up just now

Only because the Catholic Church was up to its usual divide and conquer shenanigans in the Middle East and - more through the luck of internecine internal Assyrian politicking than actual goodwill towards Eastern Christians - for once ended up on the winning side. The Chaldean Catholics and Church of the East used to be one and the same church, until a series of difficult to track or explain schisms from the early modern period onwards led to some of the patriarchal lines deciding that attempting to gain recognition for their position from Rome would bolster their position against their erstwhile co-religionists. This Catholic-supported strife played a significant role in the catastrophic weakening of the Church of the East's position in what later became Iraq.

The history is particularly complex, but there has been one deeply ironic outcome: what's now the majority pro-Rome Chaldean Catholic Church is mainly formed out of what was, until the early 19th century, the traditionalist line that refused union with Rome, while what's now the minority traditionalist Assyrian Church of the East is mainly formed out of what was, until the same period, the pro-Catholic unity line (though there are so many schisms and counter-schisms that it's very difficult to keep track).

I would be very glad if Pope Francis COULD start something. But it is, admittedly, a complicated situation. I'm not sure if I feel happy with myself-I don't think I'd have the guts to go to Iraq.

[Sundiata]

Pope Francis is a hero.

[The Blaatschapen]

I sincerely hope that the Pope's visit to Iraq does more good than harm. Especially for Iraq's (ir)religious minorities.

[The Archregimancy]

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.

Mandaeans are mostly in the southern part of Iraq, as I understand it.

Other reasons for decline aside, they wouldn’t have been as hit hard by ISIS as the Yazidis and Christians were.

That being said, I know a lot more about the Yazidis and Christians than the Mandaeans.

Mandaeans are absolutely fascinating, and it's a shame that they're not better known in Christianity - though since they're traditionally a very closed and private group, they don't really invite outside interest. They seem to be the last modern remnant of pre-medieval gnosticism, and while this next point is ultimately unprovable, there's a decent possibility that they're the last remnants of the followers of John the Baptist who rejected the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Historically they've stressed their connections to John the Baptist and John's status as a final prophet, have an origin story that has them leaving Palestine in the first century AD following persecutions, they stress ongoing ritual baptism in flowing water, and all of their baptismal waters are ritually called 'Jordan'. However, somewhere along the way they seem to have picked up a lot of dualistic gnostic cosmology, so it's likely that - on some level - they're a syncretic merger of followers of John the Baptist and 1st-century AD Middle Eastern gnosticism.

Unfortunately, they're facing extinction in their ancestral Iraqi homeland in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It has very little to do with ISIS, but rather results from them being an easy target for competing Sunni and Shia extremist groups in the chronic post-war instability - and their traditional cultural status as goldsmiths also made them an easy target for kidnappers seeking ransoms. Up to 90% of Iraq's pre-war Mandaean population of 60-70,000 has fled the country (or been killed), with most now loving as refugees in Jordan and Syria (out of the frying pan...), though there's also a small historical population in Iran.

There are also small émigré communities in the West, notably in Sweden and Australia. This short English-language video from their Australian cultural support group may be of interest (though it's slightly disorienting to hear Mandaeans speak with Australian accents).

How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?

Basically all of it.

Not really; only the most immediate demographic decline. The recent catastrophic decline of possibly up to two thirds of the Christian population is a direct consequence of the 2003 war and the consequent destabilisation of the broader region, but the longer-term decline is an ongoing process that dates back much earlier, and the initial catalysts were the Crusades and Mongol invasions. Immediately before the Crusades, the Church of the East had over 60 dioceses in the Middle East (and many much further afield as far as China, but it's the Mesopotamian context that we're focusing on here). By the time Timur had had his way with the region, there were only seven.

The Church of the East's last great chance was the Mongol conquest of Mesopotamia. Hulagu Khan, grandson of Genghis, brother of Kublai, and founder of the Ilkhanate khanate that came to rule much of Persia and Mesopotamia, was the son of the Nestorian princess Sorghaghtani Beki. Because of his mother, Hulagu was very well-disposed to the Church of the East. Prior to the Mongol sack of Baghdad The Church had also had a very high cultural status within the Abbasid Caliphate, providing the Caliph's personal doctors, and playing a key role in translating and transmitting Greek and Roman science and philosophy to the Islamic Middle East; they were arguably the key catalyst in the Islamic Golden Age. For a a few decades so the Church of the East, the remnants of the Crusader States, and the partially restored Byzantine Empire had some hope that a new Christian power would arise in Mesopotamia, and reverse the Muslim conquests of the region; and while Islam was by this point likely the majority religion across the region as a whole, the balance was much closer than it is today; much as it proved in Spain, the demographics were potentially reversible.

It wasn't to be. Hulagu, who died in 1265, remained a shamanist, and his heir Abaqa and grandson Arghun both Buddhists, though strong Nestorian family connections meant the Church of the east was still stable. But after Arghun's death in 1291, the Ilkhanate started to disintegrate. Arghun's son Ghazan, who came to the throne in 1295, had been raised a Christian - but converted to Islam in order to attract support from the Persian nobility in his attempt to depose his cousin Baydu. From that point on, the Ilkhans were staunch supporters of Islam. The resulting oppression of non-Muslim religious traditions in Mesopotamia and Persia, combined with the regional instability brought about by the collapse of a united Mongol Empire - which cut off Nestorian access to their eastern dioceses at the same time that these were coming under increased intolerance and pressure - began the long, slow, great decline of the Church of the East that continues into the present - and which the current Papal visit will do nothing to arrest, no matter how well-intentioned it undoubtedly is.

But that brief period between the 1258 conquest of Baghdad and Ghazan's 1295 conversion to Christianity is one of the great 'what ifs' of history; the Mongols came within a whisker of establishing a Nestorian-led state across the cultural core of the Middle East.

[Kowani]

split in the Methodist Church over LGBT+ inclusion gets delayed again, until 2022

[The Archregimancy]

Pope Francis is a hero.

I don't doubt that he means well, and I don't doubt that he's a good man at heart; and he certainly seems to be an improvement over his two immediate predecessors when it comes to addressing the corrosive internal institutional issues that have damaged Catholicism's moral authority in recent decades.

But I think one would need to be a Roman Catholic - which you of course are, so fair enough - to consider him a hero.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.

[The Blaatschapen]

It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.

(Image)

Inter-faith dialogue might help with getting secularism. If no religion is dominant in one place, they kind of need to go to secularism lest one of the religions gets oppressed. Better to have equality and peace at the cost of not always having a government mandated holiday for every single special day of one's faith.

The again, even France, one of the more stringent secular states out there still has christmas as a national holiday.

I'm fairly practical when it comes to these matters. I have my disagreements with the pope, but I do see progress from him compared to previous ones. Especially the last one. The one before (John Paul II) was a mixed bag, somewhat decent for the issues of the 1980s, less so afterwards.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.

(Image)

Inter-faith dialogue might help with getting secularism. If no religion is dominant in one place, they kind of need to go to secularism lest one of the religions gets oppressed. Better to have equality and peace at the cost of not always having a government mandated holiday for every single special day of one's faith.

The again, even France, one of the more stringent secular states out there still has christmas as a national holiday.

I'm fairly practical when it comes to these matters. I have my disagreements with the pope, but I do see progress from him compared to previous ones. Especially the last one. The one before (John Paul II) was a mixed bag, somewhat decent for the issues of the 1980s, less so afterwards.

I'm not against it, but I really know what their mentality is. They don't hesitate to be an alliance in homophobia and anti-porn. Secularists must be aware that this will turn to hostile actions against our free will. My dream is to create a secular formation like the Socialist International.

[Old Tyrannia]

Pope Francis is a hero.

Well, I don't believe Pope Francis has ever played down the Holocaust or praised a fascist dictator, so at least he's a step up from the last person you proclaimed to be a hero in this thread even if you can't produce a coherent argument to support your statement.

It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.

(Image)

Those villainous religious extremists and their... *checks notes* peaceful interfaith dialogues!

[Salus Maior]

split in the Methodist Church over LGBT+ inclusion gets delayed again, until 2022

Is this the Brexit of Methodism?

[Salus Maior]

I'm not against it, but I really know what their mentality is.

Lol, no you don't.

You can't even keep coherence between what you supposedly believe and what you actually support, and you constantly interpret anything that's not explicitly Turk nationalist propaganda as being anti-Turk and anti-secularism. In terms of understanding where anyone is coming from, you're immature at best and disingenuous at worst.

Those villainous religious extremists and their... *checks notes* peaceful interfaith dialogues!

Good thing the Armenian patriarch isn't there, or else he'd be ranting about anti-Turkish conspiracies.