NATION

PASSWORD

Can Homophobia Be Justified?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 737
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:23 pm

Cetacea wrote:No form of discriminatory practice is ever justified and is inherently harmful

That said the scope of the definition needs to be framed so that people who do not discriminate are not labelled homophobic simply because they think its a sin.

Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Prydania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1172
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:23 pm

Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Yes, it does.

I said that it doesn't.

Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.
Pro Things You Hate
Anti Things You Like

User avatar
Strazhnist Tsarus
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 46
Founded: Sep 13, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Strazhnist Tsarus » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm

Prydania wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:I said that it doesn't.

Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.
~Factbook Directory~
qna
This nation is entirely in the Past Tense
1928 Tsarus, post-Strazhnist Revolution
4, 6, 8

User avatar
Heloin
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18830
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm

Loeje wrote:
Cetacea wrote:No form of discriminatory practice is ever justified and is inherently harmful

That said the scope of the definition needs to be framed so that people who do not discriminate are not labelled homophobic simply because they think its a sin.

Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.

Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.
Ye wouldna' have your freedom to take a drink or two.
If it wasna' for the work of the Dorsai!

Proudly Zimbabwean | Art Thread | Stand With Hong Kong | Industrial Workers of the World | Stand With Artsakh
Harmless Historical Nut

User avatar
Middle Barael
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 371
Founded: Apr 24, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Middle Barael » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:26 pm

Loeje wrote:
Prydania wrote:Yes, it does.

Not in the definition I had in the OP.

I think while Homophobia does not view LGBTQ+ people as lesser (though certainly most homophobes do), it does view them as having lesser rights (less rights to express themselves, marry who they want, etc)


And no it’s never justified, although many homophobes unfortunately have been brainwashed into being homophobic. It still isn’t justified however
Last edited by Middle Barael on Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro: Environmentalism, fighting climate change, social democracy, police reform, LGBTQ rights, abortions, separation of church and state, democracy, assault weapon ban, proportional representation, multi-party states, Two-State Solution, Israel AND Palestine, pacifism, immigration, Anti-Racism, Jacinda Ardern-type Politics, NHS-type Healthcare, culture, science, UN

Anti: Environmental destruction, fossil fuels, Trump, Laissez-faire economy, communism, far-right, homophobia, “Pro-Life”, dictatorships, one/two-party systems, guns, Netanyahu, Israeli settlements/annexation, Hamas, Hezbollah, Jihadist terrorists, war, racism, anti-immigration, nationalism, fascism,


8Values
Social: Very Progressive
Economic: Social
Hierarchical: Liberal
Foreign: Internationalist

User avatar
Heloin
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18830
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:28 pm

Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.

I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?
Ye wouldna' have your freedom to take a drink or two.
If it wasna' for the work of the Dorsai!

Proudly Zimbabwean | Art Thread | Stand With Hong Kong | Industrial Workers of the World | Stand With Artsakh
Harmless Historical Nut

User avatar
Prydania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1172
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 pm

Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:
Prydania wrote:Oh well if you said it doesn't.... :roll:

Seeing as you need me to explain it...
I think you're wrong.

What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

First off, culture doesn't have anything to do with it. Do you think every LGBTQ+ person is neck deep in "LGBT culture"? 'cause we're not. I'm so removed from that, that you'd think I was straight if you had a cup of coffee with me.

Secondly...
"What do you call a disdain against LGBT...but not against gay individuals. ?"
I'll make this simple for you. Being gay, a lesbian, bi, transgendered, queer, etc... it's not a choice? You understand that? So since it's not a choice then if you're "against LGBT" then you are against part of what I am. Therefore you think I'm lesser because of it.

And if you think I'm lesser then you can't possibly respect me as a person.

Or to draw on an earlier post I made in this thread...
Why are you expending so much mental energy to justify your bigotry? Surely there are better uses for your time and energy then thinking of justifications to hate your fellow human beings?
Pro Things You Hate
Anti Things You Like

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 737
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 pm

Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Changing the definition would probably solve the problem. Discriminating against people is never justified.

Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.

I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Tsarus 2142
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Apr 06, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tsarus 2142 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:31 pm

Heloin wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

Because your definition does not consider the above to be homophobia.
Unless you agree that it isn't. I would be surprised.

I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?

Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.
~Factbook Directory~
qna
This nation: fascist, expansionist, traditionalist, meritocracy, racialism.
Tier 8, Level 0, Type 5- - -6/10, 10, 10/7 Clone Troops/Militants respectively.
No stats.

User avatar
Picairn
Senator
 
Posts: 3698
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Picairn » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:32 pm

Tsarus 2142 wrote:
Heloin wrote:I don’t hate you, I hate who you are and the culture that supports you. That makes it so much better now does it?

Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

Salus Maior wrote:Nothing we say here actually matters.

Moralityland wrote:big corporations allied with the communist elite
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Certified brunch-loving liberal and resident optimist of NSG. All Hail Biden!

User avatar
Tsarus 2142
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Apr 06, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tsarus 2142 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:33 pm

Prydania wrote:
Strazhnist Tsarus wrote:What do you call a disdain against LGBT, its culture, but not against gay individuals. ?

First off, culture doesn't have anything to do with it. Do you think every LGBTQ+ person is neck deep in "LGBT culture"? 'cause we're not. I'm so removed from that, that you'd think I was straight if you had a cup of coffee with me.

Secondly...
"What do you call a disdain against LGBT...but not against gay individuals. ?"
I'll make this simple for you. Being gay, a lesbian, bi, transgendered, queer, etc... it's not a choice? You understand that? So since it's not a choice then if you're "against LGBT" then you are against part of what I am. Therefore you think I'm lesser because of it.

And if you think I'm lesser then you can't possibly respect me as a person.

Or to draw on an earlier post I made in this thread...
Why are you expending so much mental energy to justify your bigotry? Surely there are better uses for your time and energy then thinking of justifications to hate your fellow human beings?


By LGBT, again, I mean the culture. Apologies for the misunderstanding... !
And. Again, I never said I hated gays or lgbt individuals. I judge everyone on an individual basis.
~Factbook Directory~
qna
This nation: fascist, expansionist, traditionalist, meritocracy, racialism.
Tier 8, Level 0, Type 5- - -6/10, 10, 10/7 Clone Troops/Militants respectively.
No stats.

User avatar
The Reformed American Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 3447
Founded: May 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:33 pm

To answer the OP's question. Hating people just because they're gay, bi, trans, etc is NOT justified at all. People getting annoyed that certain symbols are being shoved in their face every two seconds and they're basically forced to kiss someone's ring, then yes, hostility to that is justified. Reminds me when I would see regions get raided on gameside (such as The Embassy), and the raiders shove a hideous trans flag in everyone's face. Probably a case of classical conditioning (I strongly opposed many of those raids) but still.
Last edited by The Reformed American Republic on Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Tsarus 2142
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 118
Founded: Apr 06, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Tsarus 2142 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:34 pm

Picairn wrote:
Tsarus 2142 wrote:Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?

Deserve better=deserve a culture that does not promote immorality.
And again that is just an example.
~Factbook Directory~
qna
This nation: fascist, expansionist, traditionalist, meritocracy, racialism.
Tier 8, Level 0, Type 5- - -6/10, 10, 10/7 Clone Troops/Militants respectively.
No stats.

User avatar
Heloin
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18830
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:34 pm

Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:Then you agree that homophobia is never justified because it’s never fucking justified Gen.

I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.

No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.
Ye wouldna' have your freedom to take a drink or two.
If it wasna' for the work of the Dorsai!

Proudly Zimbabwean | Art Thread | Stand With Hong Kong | Industrial Workers of the World | Stand With Artsakh
Harmless Historical Nut

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 737
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:37 pm

Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:I definitely don't agree with it. But there are people who are actually trying to be helpful and I don't think it would be right to blame them.

No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.

Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Prydania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1172
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm

Tsarus 2142 wrote:Let me fix it.
"I don't hate you for being gay. I hate the culture surrounding this trait of yours, its promotion of immorality etc...I believe you deserve better."
That is just an example.

Again, do you think every LGBTQ+ is into what could be described as "mainstream gay culture"? Plenty aren't.

Secondly, as a gay guy who finds "mainstream gay culture" annoying...get over yourself, will you? It's not my cup of tea but who am I to tell people how to live their lives? Who are you to impose your view of morality on people? Behind all of the tropes of gay culture you ultimately have a culture that supports people being who they are and come together to mutually uplift people. Sure, maybe its sexual morals aren't to YOUR liking, but you have no right to impose your view of morality on anyone else.

And for you to think you know what's better for another adult capable of making their own decisions is peak arrogance on your part. If you want to live your life a certain way go for it. Just don't impose it on other people.
Pro Things You Hate
Anti Things You Like

User avatar
Heloin
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18830
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:38 pm

Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:No they’re not. They’re trying to make your life worse. If it was up to them you would suffer. I’ve lived in a society where the bigots you’re calling “helpful” have had power. They become butchers.

Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.

That’s what all homophobia is.
Ye wouldna' have your freedom to take a drink or two.
If it wasna' for the work of the Dorsai!

Proudly Zimbabwean | Art Thread | Stand With Hong Kong | Industrial Workers of the World | Stand With Artsakh
Harmless Historical Nut

User avatar
Alcala-Cordel
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1561
Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:39 pm

Tsarus 2142 wrote:
Picairn wrote:Homophobic alert! Why do you believe gays "deserve better"?

Deserve better=deserve a culture that does not promote immorality.
And again that is just an example.

Nothing immoral about being gay.
. The Red Coalition of Ⓐlcala-Cordel .
--Home--Map--Polandball--Economy--Government Structure--Canon--
Join the DankLeft Commune! We're puppet friendly

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 737
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:41 pm

Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Wanting anyone to suffer is unjustifiable. And that's what I already said. That is wrong.

That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Prydania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1172
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:42 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:To answer the OP's question. Hating people just because they're gay, bi, trans, etc is NOT justified at all. People getting annoyed that certain symbols are being shoved in their face every two seconds and they're basically forced to kiss someone's ring...

How do you think LGBTQ+ people feel about living in a heteronormative society?

And to be clear- heteronormative CIS people make up the vast majority of the population. So I'm NOT suggesting we remake society into some rainbow-pattered utopia.
That being said...if I can deal with the barrage of heteronormative advertising, media, and coding in every aspect of my life year round then you can deal with seeing some rainbow flags every June or a trans flag on a NS region after a raid. Buck up, you're (presumably) a straight person. Society is catering to you on a constant basis. A few bits of LGBTQ+ symbols being propped up here and there in the push for basic equality and human decency isn't an attack on your near-impenetrable culture hegemony.
Last edited by Prydania on Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pro Things You Hate
Anti Things You Like

User avatar
Heloin
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18830
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:43 pm

Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.

It always is. No form of bigotry is ever justified for any reason.
Ye wouldna' have your freedom to take a drink or two.
If it wasna' for the work of the Dorsai!

Proudly Zimbabwean | Art Thread | Stand With Hong Kong | Industrial Workers of the World | Stand With Artsakh
Harmless Historical Nut

User avatar
The Reformed American Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 3447
Founded: May 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:44 pm

Loeje wrote:
Heloin wrote:That’s what all homophobia is.

Usually, yes, but not always.

It depends on who is defining it. Obviously those who want to cause LGBTQ+ people harm are not very good people in my view, and should be opposed. With that being said, some people define it more vaguely than that, where neutrality or "meh" is considered "homophobia."

User avatar
Loeje
Diplomat
 
Posts: 737
Founded: Feb 02, 2021
Democratic Socialists

Postby Loeje » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:48 pm

Heloin wrote:
Loeje wrote:Usually, yes, but not always.

It always is. No form of bigotry is ever justified for any reason.

There are people who don't feel that way and still qualify as homophobic. They're the exception, but they exist and if we give them a chance they might change their minds.
"Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8
"Whoever oppresses the poor to increase his own wealth, or gives to the rich, will only come to poverty." Proverbs 22:16

User avatar
Prydania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1172
Founded: Nov 08, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Prydania » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:49 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Loeje wrote:Usually, yes, but not always.

It depends on who is defining it. Obviously those who want to cause LGBTQ+ people harm are not very good people in my view, and should be opposed. With that being said, some people define it more vaguely than that, where neutrality or "meh" is considered "homophobia."

I've never seen this fabled "honest person who thinks LGBT people should be afforded respect but is persecuted by the woke mob for being homophobic because they weren't enthusiastic enough," and I did volunteer work for LGBTory when I lived in Canada. You'd think we would have gotten a lot of hate, but it was...as you would say..."meh."

So this sob story of "I believe gay people are cool but I wasn't enthusiastic enough one Pride Month and now they're saying I'm a homophobe," seems like just that. A sob story.
Pro Things You Hate
Anti Things You Like

User avatar
The Free Joy State
Senior Issues Editor
 
Posts: 13855
Founded: Jan 05, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:50 pm

No.

To expand, I think homophobic people are very good at self-justification of their hatred (usually in the form of statements, generally tinged with self-righteousness, that they "love the person" but "just/simply" hate a fundamental part of that person's self), but no form of bigotry can ever actually be justified.
"If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it." - Toni Morrison

My nation does not represent my beliefs or politics.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cannot think of a name, Destructive Government Economic System, Innovationist Eurasia, Kiu Ghesik, Monsone, New haven america, North Washington Republic, Postauthoritarian America, Telterus, The Reformed American Republic

Advertisement

Remove ads