Preserve the Death Penalty (Ideas)

[Imperium Anglorum]

1. How does it serve humanity? Simply asserting that it does is woefully unconvincing.

2. If I just said 'it does not serve humanity today' would you suddenly abandon this draft and swap over to my abolitionist position? You need to give warrants as to why your claim is true.

3. Is it just?

4. Does it rehabilitate anyone?

5. Does it deter anyone?

6. Does it incapacitate anyone anymore than the alternatives?

7. Does it save any money relative to the alternatives?

1. By getting rid of Dangerous criminals who cant be rehabilitated or bound in prisons
2. No
3.That is the main purpose
4.Yes
5. It saves much more money

How does the death penalty rehabilitate anyone?

How is it just? In the United States, ‘racial disparities [in the death penalty] has been evident since colonial times’. Carol Steiker and Jordan Steiker, ‘The American death penalty and the (in)visibility of race’ (2015) 82 U Chic L Rev 243, 243.

Why does saving money deter anything?

You have huge holes in your arguments. Specifically, you haven't produced any reasons to believe them. Some of the responses seem utterly implausible, because apparently we are to rehabilitate the dead. Is this the best we can expect from the anti-abolitionists?

[Greater Cesnica]

1. By getting rid of Dangerous criminals who cant be rehabilitated or bound in prisons
2. No
3.That is the main purpose
4.Yes
5. It saves much more money

How does the death penalty rehabilitate anyone?

How is it just? In the United States, ‘racial disparities [in the death penalty] has been evident since colonial times’. Carol Steiker and Jordan Steiker, ‘The American death penalty and the (in)visibility of race’ (2015) 82 U Chic L Rev 243, 243.

Why does saving money deter anything?

You have huge holes in your arguments. Specifically, you haven't produced any reasons to believe them. Some of the responses seem utterly implausible, because apparently we are to rehabilitate the dead. Is this the best we can expect from the anti-abolitionists?

I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.

[Tinfect]

I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.

OOC:
I suspect demanding exquisitely well-reasoned and stated positions of a new player who, for the record, doesn't even have a draft, is rather silly.

[Greater Cesnica]

I suspect their arguments are based more on emotion than any actual semblance of deductive reasoning.

OOC:
I suspect demanding exquisitely well-reasoned and stated positions of a new player who, for the record, doesn't even have a draft, is rather silly.

OOC: I'm not demanding anything exquisite. All I desire is simple, logical arguments. Arguments that could be come up as part of an elevator pitch, for instance.

[Comfed]

Fun fact: In the US, the death penalty is often used as a tool by prosecutors to threaten those who are accused of a crime of pleading guilty.

[Straona]

You can kill an “innocent” if they committed one of the most heinous crimes possible. At that point they are not innocent. If you commit a crime you are no longer innocent. Not everyone is going to reform themselves after prison. They will just go right back to what they were doing before. Dictators who commit heinous war crimes and soldiers who follow their orders without question do not deserve to sit comfortably in prison. I am sick of the WA governing all nations on policy just because some of them find the justifiable murder of a WAR criminal as wrong even though there’s no proof that they will reform.

You misunderstood. People can be falsely accused and executed, while the real perpetrators go unpunished.

You cant execute an innocent if you know where the accused was during the time of the crime.

And yet it happens all the time.

That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

[Greater Cesnica]

You misunderstood. People can be falsely accused and executed, while the real perpetrators go unpunished.


And yet it happens all the time.

That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.

[Straona]

That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.

“No it really shouldn’t ambassador. You and those who keep sending these sham proposals go too far. There must always be a way to swiftly punish the worst of the worst. Torture sometimes isn’t enough to make them atone. Some will never atone unless they die. That’s how it works in the real world. Not all criminals especially those who deserve the death penalty will ever change, they’ll just go back to doing what they were doing while or before committing their crimes. People need to figure that out. Using emotions and idealism as I say, are tools for children who don’t know that the world will chew you up and spit you out with those ideals. Those kinds of ideals will always be crushed by realism and facts. Yes there’s human error. You wanna know why, people are far too emotional. That’s why matters concerning the death penalty I let a robot deal with that so the margin of error and likely mistake is decreased tremendously. Abolishment of the death penalty won’t solve human error. All it will do is satisfy a fantasy people have that everyone is equal in court. Sadly no they aren’t depending on the crime they commit.

[Straona]

That rarely happens and if it does it’s the fault of the justice system not the punishment.

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.

How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

[Greater Cesnica]

OOC: As long as humans are involved in the justice system mistakes will occur. And robots cannot be used to administer justice in any feasible manner. So since we're stuck with that problem, the death penalty must be abolished.

How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

Robots are unable to account for weighing mitigating circumstances effectively when considering a determination.

[Straona]

How are robots not feasible if they don’t let emotions get in the way of their judgement? They follow the laws written up by our respective government.

Robots are unable to account for weighing mitigating circumstances effectively when considering a determination.

Circumstances shouldn’t matter in a court of law. The only exception that comes to mind let’s say I killed someone but only because they were about to kill me and my child. That’s self defense. That’s the only time circumstances are necessary in a court of law. Did people deserving of the death penalty kill because of self defense? Of course not. They killed either by following orders or for sheer pleasure. There are no circumstances. Someone deserving of the death penalty should have their crime be mitigated. If you are sentenced to death you committed one of the most severe crimes imaginable. Maybe in smaller courts a human aid to the robot is necessary to mitigate such circumstances that you probably would bring up. But for something like the death penalty there is not mitigation of such an awful crime.

[Imperium Anglorum]

Circumstances are always important in a court of law: mens rea is required in many kinds of crime, which makes identical behaviour illegal in some instances.

[Straona]

Circumstances are always important in a court of law: mens rea is required in many kinds of crime, which makes identical behaviour illegal in some instances.

Just because the accused acknowledges their crime doesn’t resolve them of it. Plus we’re talking about the death penalty so no circumstances are necessary because there are no circumstances for why someone committed a crime such as mass genocide. They already acknowledged their crime the moment they committed. Your claim at least for the death penalty is moot.

[Imperium Anglorum]

No, I'm saying you don't understand what a crime is. A crime is a nexus both of action and of intent. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Ignoring mens rea creates an incoherent conception of criminal law.

[Straona]

No, I'm saying you don't understand what a crime is. A crime is a nexus both of action and of intent. Actus reus non facit reum nisi mens sit rea. Ignoring mens rea creates an incoherent conception of criminal law.

Oh I know what a crime is. It involves both intent and the action yes. But the idea of intent and conscience goes out the window with genocide. You forget the Nuremberg Trials? Most of the defendants argued they were following orders as their intent, you know what happened? Hanged by the neck. The only ones who got out of it were those who were medically unfit for trial or were found to not have any connection to what the Nazis were doing because they were away at foreign countries. Let’s say a nation in today’s world, their military leaders did something if not as bad, almost as bad as what the Nazis did, would you want the ones who orchestrated such atrocities to continue to live in a prison? I’ll say what I think most people would say, No. If you said you would want them to sit in jail you’re hypocritical. If you are sentenced to death you would’ve had to do something so awful to deserve it. I’m not saying we make a proposal that preserves it. I’m saying a ban is ridiculous, moronic, idiotic, idealistic bs. Just people looking for attention grasping at straws like a child who are using the WA to get what they want even if it’s a massive overreach.

[Straona]

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(Incoming loooong reply)