King HEM wrote:RiderSyl wrote:
Yup. That's an accurate summation of our exchange. Europeia definitely didn't compare anyone to Goebbels, and I have no idea where Unibot got that from. Just.. reading the thread would've shown that that didn't happen. Maybe he skimmed it or something. Idk.
Also, I don't want to come off as ignoring your thoughtful reply to me, but I don't think there's a ton to say. You're convinced that the region is no longer fascist, and are presenting that as fact based on the evidence you've seen. I've skimmed through the evidence, and I'm not convinced. I appreciate the fact that you are putting yourself in the awkward position of defending people you don't necessarily like because you want to help them remove a particularly dark stain from their record, but given the history — and given the even looooooonnnggger history in this game of people in general lying + covering up odious undersides when it serves them — I think you are more certain than you should be.
In terms of what it would take to convince me (personally, again, still not speaking for Europeia) — I don't know. I will think about it. But frankly, I also think you and others should also think about whether in certain instances, when offenses just reach a critical mass, there is any coming back from that as a region. I would again urge those in CCD who are truly anti-fascist to consider hitting reset, and setting off into a new community. I think that would be best.
I appreciate your response. Honestly, you've hit the nail on the head with a lot of this, so there's not really anything to disagree with, just three points that you made I want to respond to.
I don't like being in this awkward position, but... it's just that when I see a legitimate redemption story going on, the idea of that redemption being denied... it doesn't sit well with me, to say the least. I've personally spoken to those I consider close friends on NS and asked their opinions of my position on CCD, because I had more than one moment where I finished typing a comment defending CCD and thought to myself "What the hell am I doing?". The fact I'm still sticking to my guns is through a mixture of evidence, my personal experience in spying on and watchdogging CCD, and the opinions of those around me on what I'm doing. I have no political motive here. If someone from TNP or Euro or anywhere, really, shows me a log of CCDers in a backchannel being fash that's from after mid-2020, then I'm going to admit I was fooled and gladly be done with this.
As for what you're urging - it was already attempted by former members of CCD - it was called the AWF - but it fell apart due to toxicity, drama, and some illegal+immoral activities. I know all this because I attempted to support the AWF for a while before it crashed and burned. Some former AWF members returned to the CCD and are currently aiding in its denazification. At least one of them were among those that helped provide evidence of their anti-fascism when I asked for it. Anyway, thanks to how awful the first attempt at setting off into a new community went, everyone's very hesitant to try again. There's also the fact that a successful press of the reset button would require no Jocospor, Shrew, or Depackya in high places of power, and going 3/3 in that is as likely as TNP electing me as its delegate next election.
Lastly, whether offenses reach a critical mass and there's no coming back from it? I've more than thought about that concept, I've gone against regions and individuals on the idea that they've crossed that line. I believe that OOC fascism is a line that can be crossed back from, depending on how deeply involved the person/group became, if a serious effort is made to redeem oneself, and the results are stark in contrast to when the line was crossed. It's my personal belief that rejecting those persons/groups that fit that criteria does more harm to the antifascist cause than good, because it shoves them right back towards the cliff they dove off of in the first place.