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by Johanneslanden » Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:54 am
by Comfed » Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:17 am
Johanneslanden wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?
Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.
by North Prarie » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:09 am
Comfed wrote:Johanneslanden wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?
Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.
It was TSP that decided to ignore diplomacy and make a public statement.
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by Westinor » Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:14 am
Johanneslanden wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but this all seems slightly counter-productive for TNP.
I'm confused about TNP claiming to be trying to prevent the CCD gaining more publicity, then bringing greater attention to them than they've had in months.
If TNP's aim is genuinely to move public discussion away from the Confederation, then surely they shouldn't be generating public discussion about the Confederation?
Of course, I may just be too lowly to understand TNP's big brain plays.
by The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:57 am
by The Moonstar » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:01 pm
by Goobergunchia » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:02 pm
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Hello, you may have missed in your considerable absence that The North Pacific has changed a lot since you last graced us with your presence. In that time, one development that occurred was that The North Pacific government decided that when we were struck at, we would strike back. In January of 2020 we revealed an attempted infiltration and coup attempt by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictatorships of The North Pacific, and in retaliation, began to hit their embassied regions as part of a short and successful campaign to strike at this fascist region. Since then, The North Pacific has continuously opposed the CCD's attempts to fool the rest of NSGP that they had reformed. Nothing we see and nothing that has been presented to us, suggests that they have, nor have they reformed from the actions they took against our region. In light of this, it was quite clear to anyone who has been around at any point in the last year or so, that would oppose this attempt to repeal the liberation against them.
That opposition included, as a last resort, quorum raiding those regions who despite receiving our telegram campaign (there are some exceptions here that I'm sure our official statement will mention) continued to approve the proposal. It was deemed to be in our vital regional interests, and in the interests of opposing fascism, to ensure this proposal did not reach the floor. That is very much an acceptable casus belli for a military operation, and we invite you to visit our forum for further information, if you remember where it is, where you can find our initial statement on the matter.
by Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:13 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:This was what we did.
Your actions say otherwise. Because it appears that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way." Your attacks on The Moon and Renegade Islands displays a blatant disregard for respect of any kind.
Goobergunchia wrote:The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Hello, you may have missed in your considerable absence that The North Pacific has changed a lot since you last graced us with your presence. In that time, one development that occurred was that The North Pacific government decided that when we were struck at, we would strike back. In January of 2020 we revealed an attempted infiltration and coup attempt by the Confederation of Corrupt Dictatorships of The North Pacific, and in retaliation, began to hit their embassied regions as part of a short and successful campaign to strike at this fascist region. Since then, The North Pacific has continuously opposed the CCD's attempts to fool the rest of NSGP that they had reformed. Nothing we see and nothing that has been presented to us, suggests that they have, nor have they reformed from the actions they took against our region. In light of this, it was quite clear to anyone who has been around at any point in the last year or so, that would oppose this attempt to repeal the liberation against them.
That opposition included, as a last resort, quorum raiding those regions who despite receiving our telegram campaign (there are some exceptions here that I'm sure our official statement will mention) continued to approve the proposal. It was deemed to be in our vital regional interests, and in the interests of opposing fascism, to ensure this proposal did not reach the floor. That is very much an acceptable casus belli for a military operation, and we invite you to visit our forum for further information, if you remember where it is, where you can find our initial statement on the matter.
Oh, I read TNP's initial statement before commenting. It was unpersuasive.
My takeaway from all of this is that the North Pacific's current government has decided that they are the sole arbiters of what constitutes anti-fascism and is fine with imposing their position on the rest of NationStates, by force if necessary. I don't have a position on CCD, nor do I have one on the proposal that was rendered inquorate, but I do actually appreciate having the chance to make up my own mind before I vote on something. (Which includes reading advisories from respected sources, including TNP's WA Ministry.) Perhaps I am just a naive believer in democracy.
I will finally note that some regions listed as hit are regions to which I have historically held (in my capacity as a regional or organizational officer) mutual defense obligations and were I an active player I would consider said obligations to remain a point of honor absent a clear and convincing showing of why said region is no longer worthy of protection. "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" does not meet that bar.
by Ever-Wandering Souls » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:29 pm
Praeceps wrote:It's pretty clear that this resolution was to advance the interests of a fascist region through getting to the voting floor. The NPA prevent that.
The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258
Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative
by Sedgistan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:30 pm
The Moonstar wrote:Was Sedge or CG unreachable or something?
Sedgistan wrote:<snip> That said, I disagree with TNP's stated reasoning for the actions - they'd have more legs to stand on if they'd justified it as retaliation for CCD's farcical intel attempts against TNP last year - everyone can appreciate a good bit of revenge served cold. CCD has made an effort to right some of its (many) wrongs over the last few months, and while I get treating them with suspicion, completely disregarding any of the progress they have made does no favours to the anti-fascist cause. Players and communities can change their outlook, and continuing to beat them with the Liberation/ostracisation stick whilst refusing to even entertain the carrot of no longer treating them as fascist identifiers, is not conducive to encouraging others to change their ways.
Trying to make TSP feel bad for sticking to its well-known principles of defending non-fascist regions (including regions that were historically anti-fascist) is just silly.
by The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:39 pm
Praeceps wrote:Did you miss where TNP sent out counter-campaign telegrams as we have noted in our statements several times? Did you miss where we contacted authors which we thought were close to submission and warned them early on of the possibility of quorum raiding?
by RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:41 pm
Praeceps wrote:TSP has never disagreed with us on CCD being fascist, that was made quite clear during our limited discussions with them. It's pretty clear that this resolution was to advance the interests of a fascist region through getting to the voting floor. The NPA prevent that.
Furthermore, this disagreement with the regions that approved the resolution was not "They disagreed with me about a WA proposal" but rather that they approved a fascist resolution. The NPA hasn't been out bumping Delegates just because they approved a GA proposal that we disagree with.
by Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:44 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:Praeceps wrote:Did you miss where TNP sent out counter-campaign telegrams as we have noted in our statements several times? Did you miss where we contacted authors which we thought were close to submission and warned them early on of the possibility of quorum raiding?
Renegade Islands has no authors among it these days. Like I said before, they just RP these days.
by The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:19 pm
by Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:25 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:And how hard did they try to contact them? Because Renegade Islands has a link to their Discord server in their WFE.
The Church of Satan wrote:Baedan wrote:
I was referring specifically to your assertion that a telegram would've solved the problem.
With regards to Renegade Islands, I am 100% certain that it definitely would have. They would have withdrew their approval if TNP had actually tried to talk to them. You know how I know that? Because I know both Shizensky and everyone else in Renegade Islands. Very well. They haven't been involved in GP for a very long time and they certainly don't know anything about current events. But TNP just can't be bothered to type out five sentences or less to clue them in about the resolution, right? Or is it that TNP has become relentlessly crude for 2021?
by Kleptocratic Maniacs » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:31 pm
Praeceps wrote:The Church of Satan wrote:Renegade Islands has no authors among it these days. Like I said before, they just RP these days.
I never said they did? I am replying to your demonstrably false assertion "that TNP made a precise strike with only CCD in its thoughts and everything else was just "in the way."". I notice you have not addressed that we reached out to Delegates that approved the resolution in order to attempt to persuade them to withdraw their approval.
by The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 1:58 pm
Praeceps wrote:We are well aware of that now. If you read our statement, you will see that we addressed that. I will note that you have now shifted your goalposts from saying that TNP didn't contact the RIA at all:The Church of Satan wrote:With regards to Renegade Islands, I am 100% certain that it definitely would have. They would have withdrew their approval if TNP had actually tried to talk to them. You know how I know that? Because I know both Shizensky and everyone else in Renegade Islands. Very well. They haven't been involved in GP for a very long time and they certainly don't know anything about current events. But TNP just can't be bothered to type out five sentences or less to clue them in about the resolution, right? Or is it that TNP has become relentlessly crude for 2021?
To now saying that we didn't try hard enough to contact the RIA as you finally have managed to understand that we did indeed reach out to the RIA.
by Dreadton » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:15 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.
Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o
by RiderSyl » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:21 pm
Dreadton wrote:The Church of Satan wrote:And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.
Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o
There is nothing to be remorseful about, except for the two points that TNP has already apologized for.
by Praeceps » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:22 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:Praeceps wrote:We are well aware of that now. If you read our statement, you will see that we addressed that. I will note that you have now shifted your goalposts from saying that TNP didn't contact the RIA at all:
To now saying that we didn't try hard enough to contact the RIA as you finally have managed to understand that we did indeed reach out to the RIA.
And I said that before knowing TNP had issued a second statement to double-down on their position of "screw you" to the world at large. Yup, the lack of remorse in statement #2 was that obvious, by the way.
Having read it after the fact, it's apparent that TNP made the bare minimum effort in avoiding military action, as opposed to making every effort at their disposal like a good delegate or minister should. Were the government's necks too tired to look at their screen after tiring out their poor little fingers from typing up a simple telegram? Were their mouses too overworked to click the link to the region's page!? O_o
by Dreadton » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:31 pm
RiderSyl wrote:What was the reason TNP quorum raided in the first place? Sorry, I've momentarily forgotten.
by VlaRiSsiA » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:34 pm
tl;dr - after nuclear war, corrupt oligarchical hellhole emerges. ogre leads revolution, kills oligarchs after civil war, improves quality of life with progressive social policies and industrialization. couple foreign invasions, assassination attempts, personal losses, and rebellions later, ogre goes psychotic and kills anyone he’s sus of. then a fascist midget invades and kills third of the population, ogre manages to defeat him but goes completely bonkers.
now we got a hyper-totalitarian hyper-militaristic industrial hive-mind quasi-slave state that the ogre 70 years ago would be horrified at
by The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:36 pm
Praeceps wrote:Your first statement was factually inaccurate and the information demonstrating that has always been public. Anyone can plainly see your error.
Praeceps wrote:I'm willing to engage in a good-faith discussion with individuals who won't resort to attempting to mocking statements and shifting the goalposts after being proven wrong. Thanks for your interest in TNP's statement. Enjoy the rest of your day.
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