Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Sundiata]

I wonder where all the Protestant users went... I remember when I first came to this thread there was a quite a few back then and now they seem to gone.

Nothing wrong with Catholics and Other users posting here (I respect you guys) just generally curious on where the Protestant users went.

Aggressive gatekeeping by the Cathodox contingent makes it more or less impossible for Protestants to hang around in this thread without absurdly thick skins.

I agree. Because there's so many of us it might be better if we were more delicate with posters who disagree. I do my best but sometimes it's just not enough. That's fine though, we're all trying to do our best.

[Sundiata]

Aristotle said that man is a rational animal. Jesus Christ says no, that man is a loving animal. Or in other words, that it is love that makes us human, at least to Jesus Christ. Love remains true as we develop through life.

As we grow we might notice our attitudes and beliefs changing. These might be a big deal to some of us but all of these characteristics are only accidence. Things that aren't necessary for you to be a true human being. The color of your hair or your emotions doesn't define what you are, neither does your skin color, the race you identify as, or your favorite sports team. We are made for love.

What things do you do on a regular basis that align with what you really are? A loving animal?

[Luminesa]

I wonder where all the Protestant users went... I remember when I first came to this thread there was a quite a few back then and now they seem to gone.

Nothing wrong with Catholics and Other users posting here (I respect you guys) just generally curious on where the Protestant users went.

Part of it is that a few converted, like me (although not really because of NSG or the posters here), and part of it is that we get too combative and there's more Catholics than protestants so it turns into a dogpile. Which isn't really pleasant to be in.

Yeah, we’ve had a few scraps in here recently that have probably scared some people away. Which makes me sad.

[Sundiata]

I think that it might sound like a jump to ask what you do to demonstrate your nature.

It's not though, especially when you realize that you can't understand a person's soul or its state in relation to the purpose of a human being: to love. It doesn't logically follow therefore, to judge a person's nature upon the basis of deeds. That isn't to say that deeds are valueless or unimportant. It is to say that one's deeds do not determine the nature of the human person, which is love.

Why do you guys think love doesn't stop at what people are but extends into what we do?

Why do love?

Or more narrowly, why do you believe that we should act in line with the loving nature that Jesus Christ defines? Especially if it doesn't change how you essentially are.

[Reverend Norv]

Part of it is that a few converted, like me (although not really because of NSG or the posters here), and part of it is that we get too combative and there's more Catholics than protestants so it turns into a dogpile. Which isn't really pleasant to be in.

Yeah, we’ve had a few scraps in here recently that have probably scared some people away. Which makes me sad.

This is certainly why I no longer post here. I find it impossible, in this thread, to do three things at once: 1) be faithful and honest about my Protestant beliefs, 2) treat folks with the unjudgmental compassion and gentleness that I expect of myself, and 3) insist as far as possible upon being treated the same way. The level of aggression is so great that I am obliged either to dissimulate, to retaliate, or to be a doormat. Since none of those are acceptable options, I stay away.

[Lost Memories]

To go back about paganism.
I've two topics, I'll try to make them brief.


Paganism Side A: How much the pagan custom of "magic words" still lingers inside the english usage of language?
The pagan custom of words having magical power, is the belief that words are not just sounds to communicate thoughts between persons, but it's the belief that words by themselves also hold the power or ability to directly influence the world.
The belief of magic words could be the basis of the ideas of spell casting and magic formulas. By thinking that some specific words, or some specific combinations of them, could have some supernatural effect on things or persons.

Isn't the belief of words having magical power sort of related to the bad habit of literalism? As to believe a word can have meaning even if taken out of its context. As if the word itself could express something, to be meaning in itself, rather than being part of a discourse.
How much the belief of magic words did influence or interfere with christianity in the west?

My take is that there is still a visible trace of the belief of magic words inside the english understanding of language. Mainly because I see that pagan belief to be very closely related to literalism, which is overly present in most of english communication.


Paganism Side B: Is moral relativism related to polytheism?
Does the belief in the existence of multiple deities makes it easier, or even necessary, for there being multiple different moralities, which sort of coexist by a principle which is just relativism?
Conversely, did monotheism and christianity contribute to push moral relativism out of use? (together with pushing out of use the inconsistency and expediency which relativism brings along)

[Luminesa]

Yeah, we’ve had a few scraps in here recently that have probably scared some people away. Which makes me sad.

This is certainly why I no longer post here. I find it impossible, in this thread, to do three things at once: 1) be faithful and honest about my Protestant beliefs, 2) treat folks with the unjudgmental compassion and gentleness that I expect of myself, and 3) insist as far as possible upon being treated the same way. The level of aggression is so great that I am obliged either to dissimulate, to retaliate, or to be a doormat. Since none of those are acceptable options, I stay away.

You're hardly a doormat, though I apologize that we have not been as welcoming as we could be.

[Salus Maior]

Yeah, we’ve had a few scraps in here recently that have probably scared some people away. Which makes me sad.

This is certainly why I no longer post here. I find it impossible, in this thread, to do three things at once: 1) be faithful and honest about my Protestant beliefs, 2) treat folks with the unjudgmental compassion and gentleness that I expect of myself, and 3) insist as far as possible upon being treated the same way. The level of aggression is so great that I am obliged either to dissimulate, to retaliate, or to be a doormat. Since none of those are acceptable options, I stay away.

What denomination are you, actually?

I seem to remember that you're Reformed, but I might be wrong.

[Lost Memories]

I would like to remind you guys that the greatest and first of all the commandments, which Jesus declared, was not "to be vaguely nice to others"

28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.

29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12

Love for your neighbor is empty if God is left aside. Love your neighbor without God, is not the love Jesus talked about.
Love your neighbor, starts from God.

[Lord Dominator]

To go back about paganism.
I've two topics, I'll try to make them brief.


Paganism Side A: How much the pagan custom of "magic words" still lingers inside the english usage of language?
The pagan custom of words having magical power, is the belief that words are not just sounds to communicate thoughts between persons, but it's the belief that words by themselves also hold the power or ability to directly influence the world.
The belief of magic words could be the basis of the ideas of spell casting and magic formulas. By thinking that some specific words, or some specific combinations of them, could have some supernatural effect on things or persons.

Isn't the belief of words having magical power sort of related to the bad habit of literalism? As to believe a word can have meaning even if taken out of its context. As if the word itself could express something, to be meaning in itself, rather than being part of a discourse.
How much the belief of magic words did influence or interfere with christianity in the west?

My take is that there is still a visible trace of the belief of magic words inside the english understanding of language. Mainly because I see that pagan belief to be very closely related to literalism, which is overly present in most of english communication.

The ideas of words having power is hardly a strictly pagan idea.

Paganism Side B: Is moral relativism related to polytheism?

No

Conversely, did monotheism and christianity contribute to push moral relativism out of use? (together with pushing out of use the inconsistency and expediency which relativism brings along)

Moral relativism is still a thing, and for good reason.

[Reverend Norv]

I would like to remind you guys that the greatest and first of all the commandments, which Jesus declared, was not "to be vaguely nice to others"

28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.

29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12

Love for your neighbor is empty if God is left aside. Love your neighbor without God, is not the love Jesus talked about.
Love your neighbor, starts from God.

I rest my case.

[The Marlborough]

The idea of words having power isn't unique to either paganism or English. Within Christianity it's been taught time and time again the power of language, both spoken and written. That Christ was a tremendous orator is something pointed out.

[Sundiata]

I would like to remind you guys that the greatest and first of all the commandments, which Jesus declared, was not "to be vaguely nice to others"

28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.

29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12

Love for your neighbor is empty if God is left aside. Love your neighbor without God, is not the love Jesus talked about.
Love your neighbor, starts from God.

I rest my case.

If you're suggesting that LM is being passive-aggressive or even overtly aggressive towards you, I unfortunately don't see it. Still, you're welcome to this thread as a Protestant. In fact, want you here.

[Sundiata]

The idea of words having power isn't unique to either paganism or English. Within Christianity it's been taught time and time again the power of language, both spoken and written. That Christ was a tremendous orator is something pointed out.

Furthermore, Christ being the Logos is literally the Word.

[Reverend Norv]

I rest my case.

If you're suggesting that LM is being passive-aggressive or even overtly aggressive towards you, I unfortunately don't see it. Still, you're welcome to this thread as a Protestant. In fact, want you here.

This is precisely my point. Anti-Protestant rhetoric is so normalized in this space that, even with genuine goodwill toward me, you can't see why it's outrageous for another poster to imply that there's a tension between loving God and being even "vaguely nice" to me - because to accord my beliefs even that much courtesy would, by implication, betray the Gospel.

That is exactly why, like practically every other Protestant, I avoid this thread. If you really want that to change, then I'm afraid I have to suggest somewhat more self-examination about comments like this one.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Also going to chime in from a polytheistic perspective and agree with the others that words having power isn't unique to belief in multiple Gods or w/e. Several strands of Christian thought say the same thing as far as I know.

[The Marlborough]

I rest my case.

If you're suggesting that LM is being passive-aggressive or even overtly aggressive towards you, I unfortunately don't see it. Still, you're welcome to this thread as a Protestant. In fact, want you here.

LM was more or less implying than non-Protestants shouldn't be nice to Protestants/shouldn't treat Protestant views amiably.

[Salus Maior]

I would like to remind you guys that the greatest and first of all the commandments, which Jesus declared, was not "to be vaguely nice to others"

28 And there came one of the scribes that had heard them reasoning together, and seeing that he had answered them well, asked him which was the first commandment of all.

29 And Jesus answered him: The first commandment of all is, Hear, O Israel: the Lord thy God is one God.
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God, with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength. This is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like to it: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12

Love for your neighbor is empty if God is left aside. Love your neighbor without God, is not the love Jesus talked about.
Love your neighbor, starts from God.

True that sometimes one has to be hard-hitting when it comes to the truth, but that doesn't mean we have to be overly aggressive in every space and conversation we're in.

[Lord Dominator]

The idea of words having power isn't unique to either paganism or English. Within Christianity it's been taught time and time again the power of language, both spoken and written. That Christ was a tremendous orator is something pointed out.

Furthermore, Christ being the Logos is literally the Word.

Genesis lists the first act of creation as God saying 'let there be light' as well

[Punished UMN]

I rest my case.

If you're suggesting that LM is being passive-aggressive or even overtly aggressive towards you, I unfortunately don't see it. Still, you're welcome to this thread as a Protestant. In fact, want you here.

LM's been being passive aggressive for a week or two, he even TG'd me several times in a confrontational way.

[Lost Memories]

If you're suggesting that LM is being passive-aggressive or even overtly aggressive towards you, I unfortunately don't see it. Still, you're welcome to this thread as a Protestant. In fact, want you here.

LM was more or less implying than non-Protestants shouldn't be nice to Protestants/shouldn't treat Protestant views amiably.

Oh please, can you all stop trying to put words in my mouth, and generally assuming the worst?
I didn't imply anything like that.

I'm trying to highlight how the "love" talked about by Jesus, and the "love" in the general culture, are not the same. And it's misguided to conflate them. Which, I may be wrong, but it's my strong impression, which the two are getting regularly mixed here.
Furthemore, to love God, is the greatest of all commandments. And by the love one has for God, so does he loves their neighbor.

Talking about what does "to love God" means, could be an interesting tangent to go on.

LM's been being passive aggressive for a week or two, he even TG'd me several times in a confrontational way.

And here goes number two.
I didn't talk to you confrontationally. After you attacked me for something I didn't say, I was trying to clear the misunderstanding. But it doesn't seem you are willing to do that yet.

How much is God present in your thoughts, while you write on this forum?
(please, try to answer, without using offence as a deflection tactic, to run away from the question)

[Lost Memories]

Furthermore, Christ being the Logos is literally the Word.

Genesis lists the first act of creation as God saying 'let there be light' as well

Because the word of God, is not the same as the words of man.

The pagan belief of "magic words", is to believe the words of humans do have the same importance or power over reality as the words of God have.
Which that, is not a christian belief.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Genesis lists the first act of creation as God saying 'let there be light' as well

Because the word of God, is not the same as the words of man.

The pagan belief of "magic words", is to believe the words of humans do have the same importance or power over reality as the words of God have.
Which that, is not a christian belief.

Apart from Wicca I'm not sure that's a very widespread belief among pagans at all lol

[Salus Maior]

How much is God present in your thoughts, while you write on this forum?

That's an incredibly pretentious thing to say.

You need to quit with the holier-than-thou shtick.

Maybe you should take a Bible-reading break and see what you get out of Matthew 7: 1-5 then come back to us.

[Lost Memories]

True that sometimes one has to be hard-hitting when it comes to the truth, but that doesn't mean we have to be overly aggressive in every space and conversation we're in.

It's not really a matter of being hard hitting, that's not the purpose, it's just about speaking the truth. And never shying away from it.
Then sure, being graceful with words is good, even more, as one talks about God. Some are better at it than others.

Also, could you describe what "overly aggressive" means, generally, without name calling anyone?
For clarity sake.
Since it seems to me there is an inflation of offence being displayed in here, which is being used mainly to shut people up. Or to don't engage in discussion, over maybe difficult topics.