The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[Ethane]

World Cup Host Announcement

Hey guys, with Taeshan's half of the qualifying coming towards an end, I thought I'd provide you all with an update on the second half of qualifying. There's an extra day between the cutoff for the end of the first half of qualifying and the start of the second half of qualifying. Therefore, the cutoff for matches 10 and 11 will be on the 22nd January.

The cutoff time will also be shifting slightly earlier. For the second half of qualifying, the cutoff will be between 2300-0030 UTC (1800-1930 EST). Bear this in mind, as you will have to get your RPs in slightly earlier than in the first half. That means, to guarantee you have your RP in on time for the cutoff, it should be posted before 2300; I may cutoff later in the window some days but can provide no guarantees as to exactly when I will cutoff yet. Get them in early!

Finally, for those nations who have a roster penalty still because you haven't posted a roster, you have until the first cutoff of the second half of qualifying to post a roster. That's 2300-0030 UTC on the 22nd January. If you don't then the roster penalty will be doubling to 30% of your KPB ranking.

That's all! Good luck in the rest of the World Cup Qualifying!

[Legalese]

Fine, I'm saying it. Anyone want to fill in the folks who don't have time to camp out on Discord what the heck Baker Park was talking about regarding a "general consensus" that the Cup of Harmony should be smaller? And what the heck? That pretty much is the exact opposite of any measure that aims to make the community inclusive, encouraging, and, frankly, only expands on the RP Arms Race.

[Electrum]

I'm on Discord and I haven't heard of anything about this consensus. I agree. It is an awful way to build a community.

[Legalese]

And as my last comment was admittedly very much shouting without a solution, I'll just add that if the fear is more around "oh noes, the CoH is too big, we can't possibly fit all the RPers in!": the CoH is probably the WCC that really has the most flexibility of any tournament with regard to format -- at least, in that where there's legitimate reasons to want a BoF that resembles the World Cup, the Cup of Harmony should be the right place to try different things (not just that, but sure, why the heck not, that too).

[The Sherpa Empire]

There was a conversation on Discord where Xanneria was saying we should be willing to have huge COHs to accommodate as many RPers as possible, and basically everyone else who was online at the time was telling him the numbers he was tossing out were unnecessarily large.

I don't think BP is misrepresenting the conversation on Discord. People just need to remember that not everyone uses Discord, and even people who are on Discord might not participate in every conversation there. For example, the WC host vote caused a big stir on Discord and many people expressed discontent with the outcome of the vote -- but it was the outcome of a vote. Somebody in the community must have voted for that host bid.

[Legalese]

There was a conversation on Discord where Xanneria was saying we should be willing to have huge COHs to accommodate as many RPers as possible, and basically everyone else who was online at the time was telling him the numbers he was tossing out were unnecessarily large.

I don't think BP is misrepresenting the conversation on Discord. People just need to remember that not everyone uses Discord, and even people who are on Discord might not participate in every conversation there. For example, the WC host vote caused a big stir on Discord and many people expressed discontent with the outcome of the vote -- but it was the outcome of a vote. Somebody in the community must have voted for that host bid.

Merci. Speaking as someone who has been (when active, admittedly a very not-common thing for me of late) both in/out of Discord/IRC heavily, I get why folks don't want to re-hash convos there back in the DT, but I think this (with the acknowledgement that I don't quite know how big Xanneria was talking, only that the reaction seemed to push at least BP in the direction that seems not optimal re: CoH size) and the commentary about the host vote (which I was around for) are reminders that Discord can be a bit of a bubble -- not that this is a bad thing (definitely pro having a sense of community), but that one doesn't always reflect the general sense of the other.

[Sarzonia]

That's just it: Not only is everyone not on Discord, but not everyone even WANTS to be on Discord.

If you're going to have policy discussions that affect the entire community, don't have them on Discord. They belong here.

As for the Cup of Harmony, there have been Cups of Harmony where there were minimum standards in place for RPing beyond simply posting a roster and a single RP. We shouldn't have to feel like we're depriving people who only just meet the bare minimums if we're looking at hard limits on the Cup of Harmony, if that's what's being discussed.

[Legalese]

As for the Cup of Harmony, there have been Cups of Harmony where there were minimum standards in place for RPing beyond simply posting a roster and a single RP. We shouldn't have to feel like we're depriving people who only just meet the bare minimums if we're looking at hard limits on the Cup of Harmony, if that's what's being discussed.

To me, it's more about the question of at what point that actually is, and how much that uncertainty drives the RP Arms Race. Agreed that if I were to drop into the WC87 RP thread right now and post "The Legalese NT needs to do better" and nothing else, I'd be shocked to get an invite (nor would I deserve one), but if folks know that hosts are more likely to lean towards inclusion over exclusion, that at least makes it easier to just RP when/what you want without having to think about the CoH (and helps reduce some ratings stagnation).

[Krytenia]

I think we need to remember also that at least part of the reasoning behind the CoH existing as it does now is that it gives the chance for good RPers to improve their rank. The size of the tournament will grow and contract from cup to cup depending on the quality of RP from non-qualifiers. I'd be averse to any hard limits based on numbers alone; if you want a smaller cup, set a higher bar for entry. Just set it at a reasonable height, is all.

[PotatoFarmers]

In response to Legalese and Sarzonia's opinions above, I would give my personal 2 cents, similar to what I echoed on the Discord.
I think that while an "RP arms race" is not ideal, I am of the opinion that it might eventually be an outcome, as a result of more nations coming into the NSS World Cup, more users RPing, and yet the same number of World Cup spots to fill. 192 entrants this time. A rough estimate would be that over 150 has a roster. Maybe around 80-90 nations have posted an RP or 2 at the very least? I never really counted, but it felt like that. While I would certainly prefer to include more people, I am curious to ask each and every bidder about their criterias and how they would decide on the numbers eventually. I do not want the CoH to be an exclusive club where only people with lots of time to RP can participate, yet I do not think it would be beneficial for the CoH to be a "catch-all" tournament for older nations. It shouldn't be stacked because we have nations who have just been sticking around barely posting RPs, nations who have been to the World Cup but failed to do so this time round due to rank-coasting, or even nations who think that the Cup of Harmony is a competition where they should be "auto-included". No, I do not think that way. I believe that the true spirit of the CoH lies in it being an avenue for nations with different RP storylines, different RPing styles, nations who present really interesting and nice RPs, to interact and share their perspective on worldbuilding, football, and what not. It is, after all, an invitational tournament.
I doubt there should be a "hard limit". If there is 64 nations RPing with quality and/or quantity deemed to be suitable to join a CoH, I think we can keep with a 64-nation tournament. Yet, the reason why I would prefer the lack of such limits because I think that some nations are merely just attempting to game the system by doing "barely enough", only to enter the CoH and frequently do nothing apart from a roster. I know I am guilty of accepting an invite I shouldn't have last CoH. I know. Looking back, I think that was something that shouldn't be done. But that is besides the point. If anyone doesn't get anything from what I am trying to say, then I hope this one sentence sums up my point:
The Cup of Harmony should become an invitational tournament that rewards RPers for their effort, and should be a place where RPers continue to keep up with their RPing, and hopefully, be motivated to RP more in NSS.

[Krytenia]

The Cup of Harmony should become an invitational tournament that rewards RPers for their effort, and should be a place where RPers continue to keep up with their RPing, and hopefully, be motivated to RP more in NSS.

This, people, is the origins of the Cup of Harmony. We should be wise to remember this fact.

[Zwangzug]

As You Know, Bob, Kelssek and I helped cohost the WC85 qualifiers with Farfadillis and Mriin as part of a "Vilitan plan;" we later won the CoH voting rights. This meant that we had access to all the RP scores without having to ask the WC hosts to disclose anything new.

WC85 featured more signups, and more RPs, than previous tournaments, in part because of COVID lockdowns. (180 teams in WC85 qualifiers, compared to 150 in WC84 and 168 in WC83.) Because we went with a "traditional" and very long double-round robin, RP counts were quite high. There were 24 "matchdays" for cutoff purposes (some of those were double).

In total, of the 180 teams, there were:

119: 1+
108: 2+
100: 3+
93: 4+
89: 5+
83: 6+
79: 7+
75: 8+

in terms of RP count. This inflates the number of CoH-eligible teams, because there were 30 WC qualifiers, most or all of whom fell in most of these categories.

When we ranked the eligible teams by total bonus, we approximated there were 55 teams who had posted the equivalent of 6 average or 3-4 very good RPs. We started with that group and then made the threshold slightly lower, with the goal of reaching 60 or 64 teams. Because of non-responses, we eventually went with 60.

Here are some of the teams that were on the borderline:

Mavinet--3 RPs, but they were all solid and deep. Invited and accepted.

Lisander--3 RPs, also in-depth. Invited, did not participate.

Main Nation Ministry--3 RPs,example. Qualified for the World Cup, making our decision moot, but similar total to Mavinet's and Lisander's, meaning we would need to be careful about where we drew the line. Vilita's position is similar.

Emastalia--Emastalia posted more frequently than any of these teams. However, some of their posts were extremely insubstantial and did not contribute much to their cumulative bonus. Did not invite.

Appalachian Nation--4 posts. Something like this earned very little bonus--yes, we see that the character is simulating an in-universe competition, but without any information on who these IC entities are, this is basically just copy-and-paste. Did not invite.

(In case you're curious, I would rate the "regional simulations" in this tournament higher than we graded that post, because those do have some IC commentary and pointing out interesting results. However, the "dear hosts, please know that I worked hard! give me bonus because this is special!" disclaimer on that or other posts leaves a bad taste in my mouth. A well-made RP--and there are many kinds of those, graphical, video, news article, character introspection, silly poem--speaks for itself, and if you don't trust the hosts to evaluate fairly, why do we even have hosts.)

Anyway. 60 teams seemed like a reasonable size for that tournament, and it made our jobs much easier that we already had access to the RP/grading data. I don't know off the top of my head what's the "right" fit for this cycle's CoH, but hopefully this gives you some context as to how hosts do this.

[Krytenia]

To complement Aguazuuuuuuuuuuuul's (sorry, reflex!) post above:

Invitations to the Cup of Harmony are, and always have been, subjective. Hosts will look at RP amount and substantiveness - probably taking in other factors such as engagement or relevance, though your mileage may vary - and come up with a workable number. There will be people wondering why they didn't get an invite, but such is the way of the world.

At the end of the day, the CoH is designed for the "best of the rest" in terms of RPing. If you're RPing to meet an arbitrary set of requirements, you're doing NS Sport wrong.

[Valanora]

I'll +1 to Kry's and Zwang's point and add in my own concerns and thoughts.

I will say that my concern is an arms race of who allows the most entrants into the tournament rather than merit of bid or trustworthiness of host. people vote for bids or against bids for a myriad of reasons, however turning it into "i vote for this CoH bid cause it has more entrants than that one" is not something that we should look to cultivate as a community in my honest opinion. as for the exact numbers, i don't know, i see the merit of it being more inclusive, but i also remember the intentions of it when i first started participating. as other have said, the format and numbers will ebb and flow with each edition, what i believe we should ask ourselves when judging these bids is if we trusts the host to perform their duties. if we do, then we trust them to make the judgement calls on size and quality needed to gain invitation

I think 32, 40, and 48 are the most promising numbers for formats but if there is truly 60 people who are worthy and accept the invite, then so be it. It is about judging the field and trusting the hosts judgement, imo.

[Strike]

however turning it into "i vote for this CoH bid cause it has more entrants than that one" is not something that we should look to cultivate as a community in my honest opinion

This is the very reason we decided to exclude the scorination of friendly games from WC Bids.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

I will make this statement in addition to what will be in the bid thread, b/c I feel it is appropriate to acknowledge all of the comments made on January 21.

I thank Sherpa immensely for providing a clarification, which was on the mark in relation to my thinking re: the discussion that took place; I was in fact only privy to parts of it, that just happened to be a point where many were expressing a view that tended towards smaller fields. Whether intended or not, I appreciate the affirmative defense.
I respect Legalese's views and questioning my use of the word 'consensus'. I appreciate Kry and Zwangzug's contributions on the thought process that goes into deciding who get invited.

I apologize to the community as a whole for not making a more definitive explanation until now. I will proceed to do so in our bid.

[Southwest Eastnorth]

So Something I thought about recently is (And ironically I'm posting under this account,) but I wonder how would the community would feel as a whole, if the winning bidders "Avoided inviting puppet nations of already CoH eligible nations, unless necessary" if that would clear up some space so that more unique users could get in.

I've always been militantly supportive of younger nations who attempt to RP even though they are still new and learning how the mechanics of NS SPort work as a whole. I think the CoH should be inclusive to users who want to learn how to participate in NS and the CoH is a great place to hone skills to be better roleplayers. We've seen examples just in the time I've been participating in NS Sport where people went from small time RPers to talented RPers in a cycle or to. I think We should be as welcoming to new RPers as possible

[Hapilopper]

With all due respect, Xan, I think not inviting puppets to the Cup of Harmony, simply because they're puppets, is a terrible idea and it would harm the chances of a lot of us who are trying to build puppets up to successful nations. I'm trying to build Wreckeria just like I'm trying to build Hapilopper up, and if Wreckeria was ineligible for the Cup of Harmony simply because it was a puppet and not because I didn't RP up to the standard of the hosts, I'm not entirely sure I'd want to continue going with Wreckeria since it was at a decided disadvantage.

I get it that you're trying to be inclusive to new users who want to learn the ropes of NS Sports. I'm glad to see that. New blood is always great to see. But I don't think that prohibiting puppets from taking part in the Cup of Harmony is the right way to go about it.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

So Something I thought about recently is (And ironically I'm posting under this account,) but I wonder how would the community would feel as a whole, if the winning bidders "Avoided inviting puppet nations of already CoH eligible nations, unless necessary" if that would clear up some space so that more unique users could get in.

I've always been militantly supportive of younger nations who attempt to RP even though they are still new and learning how the mechanics of NS SPort work as a whole. I think the CoH should be inclusive to users who want to learn how to participate in NS and the CoH is a great place to hone skills to be better roleplayers. We've seen examples just in the time I've been participating in NS Sport where people went from small time RPers to talented RPers in a cycle or to. I think We should be as welcoming to new RPers as possible

I won't claim to speak for Cass/NK, but I want to think that all of us would put a worthy but inexperienced main nation ahead of a puppet where all other factors were equal.

added after reading Haps post prior submission

[Hapilopper]

I won't claim to speak for Cass/NK, but I want to think that all of us would put a worthy but inexperienced main nation ahead of a puppet where all other factors were equal.

And I wouldn't have a problem with that in that instance. If there were 42 or 44 or however many main nations RPing to the standard of the hosts, I wouldn't have an issue with that in the slightest. It might mean an opportunity to keep players in NS Sports further on down the line, and like I said earlier, new blood is always great to see. If they're all maintaining a standard of roleplaying, that's cool and I wouldn't protest it. But if I have a puppet not eligible for the sole reason of being a puppet, then I feel like my puppet would have been hamstrung by being unable to collect KPB points for future events, and I would reconsider entering Wreckeria in future events, even though I might have an RP angle planned out for that event.

But if there's x amount of people with their main nations, and they're carrying on a standard of roleplaying and they want to keep going, then I'm cool with it and I'll enter Wreckeria in a future tournament and try to better them that way.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

I won't claim to speak for Cass/NK, but I want to think that all of us would put a worthy but inexperienced main nation ahead of a puppet where all other factors were equal.

And I wouldn't have a problem with that in that instance. If there were 42 or 44 or however many main nations RPing to the standard of the hosts, I wouldn't have an issue with that in the slightest. It might mean an opportunity to keep players in NS Sports further on down the line, and like I said earlier, new blood is always great to see. If they're all maintaining a standard of roleplaying, that's cool and I wouldn't protest it. But if I have a puppet not eligible for the sole reason of being a puppet, then I feel like my puppet would have been hamstrung by being unable to collect KPB points for future events, and I would reconsider entering Wreckeria in future events, even though I might have an RP angle planned out for that event.

But if there's x amount of people with their main nations, and they're carrying on a standard of roleplaying and they want to keep going, then I'm cool with it and I'll enter Wreckeria in a future tournament and try to better them that way.

This is a little bit along the same thinking that others have brought up in their perfectly valid points here and in the bid threads; we're trying to come up with solutions to problems that haven't occurred yet. I just don't think we are going to be splitting hairs on the margins when it comes to COH cutoff numbers.

[Barunia]

And I wouldn't have a problem with that in that instance. If there were 42 or 44 or however many main nations RPing to the standard of the hosts, I wouldn't have an issue with that in the slightest. It might mean an opportunity to keep players in NS Sports further on down the line, and like I said earlier, new blood is always great to see. If they're all maintaining a standard of roleplaying, that's cool and I wouldn't protest it. But if I have a puppet not eligible for the sole reason of being a puppet, then I feel like my puppet would have been hamstrung by being unable to collect KPB points for future events, and I would reconsider entering Wreckeria in future events, even though I might have an RP angle planned out for that event.

But if there's x amount of people with their main nations, and they're carrying on a standard of roleplaying and they want to keep going, then I'm cool with it and I'll enter Wreckeria in a future tournament and try to better them that way.

This is a little bit along the same thinking that others have brought up in their perfectly valid points here and in the bid threads; we're trying to come up with solutions to problems that haven't occurred yet. I just don't think we are going to be splitting hairs on the margins when it comes to COH cutoff numbers.

I think it would also be a different situation depending on whether or not the main nation of a puppet qualifies for the CoH. In that case, maybe scratch the puppet, but I certainly wouldn't want to see puppets overlooked merely for their puppet status/

Also of course, if we are judging a nation's suitability for the CoH based on RP coming from that nation only, than that nation (not the user) has met the criteria for CoH entry on its own merit, as it were.

[Ethane]

Well, I'm glad my comments started a wider discussion.
I'm satisfied that both bids have taken into account the discussions etc.

I am probably more to the lenient type regarding RP invites - especially if those RPs are towards the end of the qualifying season - because the Cup of Harmony could be a good platform to continue to RP for a bit longer and give them a better taste of NS Sports - I've noted a lot of other tournaments sometimes wait until after the Cup of Harmony to start and so the wait from the end of qualifiers to the next tournament can become a bit of a bore. Missing out on the CoH can be devastating for your rank and if you've put in an okay effort, and it seems like you'd put an okay effort in for the Cup of Harmony, then I think you should get an invite. I'd probably put that around 3 quality RPs for this cycle, or around 25%.

Having reflected on it, I agree that perhaps a maximum cap of nations is not a good idea; I still think a rough minimum level of RP in the bids and what you see as a 'good' RP that would reach that floor is a good idea, though I admit it can be hard to say that. I'm content that both bids and this discussion has addressed some of the wider concerns though, and I'd now happily vote for either bid - I'll make my mind up and vote when it opens.

[Ethane]

Apologies for the double post, but you have about 10 hours until the cutoff for match days 10+11 in the World Cup Qualifiers. The cutoff window is 2300-0030 UTC.

[Kohnhead]

So Something I thought about recently is (And ironically I'm posting under this account,) but I wonder how would the community would feel as a whole, if the winning bidders "Avoided inviting puppet nations of already CoH eligible nations, unless necessary" if that would clear up some space so that more unique users could get in.

I've always been militantly supportive of younger nations who attempt to RP even though they are still new and learning how the mechanics of NS SPort work as a whole. I think the CoH should be inclusive to users who want to learn how to participate in NS and the CoH is a great place to hone skills to be better roleplayers. We've seen examples just in the time I've been participating in NS Sport where people went from small time RPers to talented RPers in a cycle or to. I think We should be as welcoming to new RPers as possible

Xan, I see what you are trying to do here and I understand your reasons for proposing something like this but I have to say I'm greatly opposed. If someone chooses to RP with both their puppet and their main good for them (it's quite difficult but can be done) and there's no reason why they should be barred from the CoH if they meet all the criteria. What would someone like Llama with two "puppets" per say in Savigliane and Yue Zhou and is using both, why should both not make it?

What about me who's done a lot with both of my nations and my puppet is in the top four of its group, why should my puppet be excluded from the tournament? Again I completely see what you are trying to do here and I agree that helping out newer nations should be at the top of our priority list, however less drastic measures can be taken.