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MAGAThread XX: A Journal of the Plague Year

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Necroghastia
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Postby Necroghastia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:54 pm

Ranoria wrote:TLDR, it's not so much that people are angry about this that bothers me. It's that they're only angry when it's the right rioting, and not the left. I mean, courthouses were getting firebombed, is that not a coup, then?

Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.
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Salus Maior
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Founded: Jun 16, 2014
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:49 pm

Necroghastia wrote:
Ranoria wrote:TLDR, it's not so much that people are angry about this that bothers me. It's that they're only angry when it's the right rioting, and not the left. I mean, courthouses were getting firebombed, is that not a coup, then?

Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.


It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Jedi Council
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Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:56 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Last I checked courthouses =/= the literal capitol building in the middle of an electoral certification.
So, no.


It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.

There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.
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Salus Maior
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Founded: Jun 16, 2014
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:02 pm

Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
It's more or less two sides of the same coin; a blatant disrespect of institutions, political violence, mass unrest. All that fun stuff.

That one is more severe than the other doesn't really change that.

There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.


You're right that there really isn't any solid evidence that the election was a fraud, but that's not what the rioters believe. They're not doing this cynically.

They have a sincere belief, baseless or no, that the election is "stolen" and that the government and the people who make up it are irredeemably corrupt. So, in the same vein of BLMers acting in the belief (again, baseless or no) that destroying courthouses makes a statement about their dissatisfaction with the justice system, Trumpers saw occupying Capitol Hill in a revolutionary act as making a statement about their dissatisfaction with the government and its perceived corruption. Which, of course, the idea that Washington is irredeemably corrupt has existed well before Trump, and played a big role in his election in the first place as Trump was supposed to "drain the swamp" if you remember.

I'm not trying to make a "both sides" narrative, even though I don't like either side insofar as what they've done. I think this is just indicative that people are losing faith in government institutions on both sides of the avenue, to the point where they will openly destroy and attack said institutions.

Looking forward to 2021.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Jedi Council
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Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:06 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:There is a bit of a difference; BLM can make the case, pretty damn convincingly imo, that the Justice system, as represented by say a court house, has systematically discriminated against people of colour and caused them irreparable harm in the form of mass incarceration, murder, etc.

Occupying or rioting in a court house is therefore at least understandable.

By contrast, the Capitol Hill riot had absolutely zero basis; their argument was not backed up by any serious evidence, their motivations were entirely nefarious in that they were planning on overturning a democratic election. They went into the building chanting things like "death to Pence," came equipped with zap strap handcuffs and constructed a gallows outside.

Nuance is a thing; we should be able to identify the differences in these events without resorting to this stupid "both sides" narrative.


You're right that there really isn't any solid evidence that the election was a fraud, but that's not what the rioters believe. They're not doing this cynically.

They have a sincere belief, baseless or no, that the election is "stolen" and that the government and the people who make up it are irredeemably corrupt. So, in the same vein of BLMers acting in the belief (again, baseless or no) that destroying courthouses makes a statement about their dissatisfaction with the justice system, Trumpers saw occupying Capitol Hill in a revolutionary act as making a statement about their dissatisfaction with the government and its perceived corruption. Which, of course, the idea that Washington is irredeemably corrupt has existed well before Trump, and played a big role in his election in the first place as Trump was supposed to "drain the swamp" if you remember.

Sincere belief doesnt matter, what matters is facts, evidence and reality.

If these people were delusional enough to believe as you say that the election was stolen, that's not a point into their favour, and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.

BLM's riots, which for the millionth time were not at all the majority of activities that occurred last summer, as most protests were peaceful, can provide a reasoned, evidence based assertion for why the did what they did.

The Trumpers cant.

Equating the two as if both were equally justified or unjustified is hogwash and feeds into this narrative of false equivalency.
Last edited by Jedi Council on Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Salus Maior
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Founded: Jun 16, 2014
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:07 pm

Jedi Council wrote: and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.


I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Jedi Council
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Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:09 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote: and should not mean we necessarily need to treat them in the same manner as BLM.


I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.

You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:11 pm

Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I don't know about "we", but the police and security forces obviously should.

You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.


I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Jedi Council
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Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:You know full well what I meant; try to be less transparent when your spinning something, it takes more effort but it's worth it.


I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.


I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.
Last edited by Jedi Council on Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:17 pm

Really going around on this again?
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Jedi Council
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Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:17 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:Really going around on this again?

The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:20 pm

Jedi Council wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Really going around on this again?

The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.

It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:24 pm

Jedi Council wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I edited in a clarification on my last post if you want to read it.

I wasn't talking about BLM as a whole, anyway. I was talking about violent rioters, which of course aren't the whole of BLM in the same way that the Capitol Hill rioters aren't the whole of Trumpers.


I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.


Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Yes, people can do that. But I highly doubt that the people who did this were completely comfortable with their lives; people who are well-off and happy with their lives don't resort to political violence, or violence of any kind really. The Trumpers aren't Trumpers just because they want to be assholes, there are underlying reasons for why violence like this happens.

I can't really say what those reasons are, but people don't put themselves in the way of getting shot just because someone told them to.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:26 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:The both sides narrative is strong; it makes people feel edgy and morally superior.

It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.


Kind of like using lots of long, fancy looking words in a sentence ;P
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.


Kind of like using lots of long, fancy looking words in a sentence ;P

Dude what is your vocabulary that those are fancy looking words?
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.

You mean maximum appearance of sophistication with minimum actual meaning.
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Jedi Council
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Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:31 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:
I never stated they were the entirety of Trump supporters, however it must be said that per 538 45%, a plurality, of Republicans supported the Seige.

One can disapprove of violence and rioting, but also point out that one side has actual grievances that need to be addressed while the other side have merely been duped by a madman or are themselves so ignorant as to believe in conspiracy theories.


Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Yes, people can do that. But I highly doubt that the people who did this were completely comfortable with their lives; people who are well-off and happy with their lives don't resort to political violence, or violence of any kind really. The Trumpers aren't Trumpers just because they want to be assholes, there are underlying reasons for why violence like this happens.

I can't really say what those reasons are, but people don't put themselves in the way of getting shot just because someone told them to.

I'm not sure, but it's not my job to find counterpoints for your argument. If you can find polling I would be happy to read it.

As per not having people putting themselves in harms way becaus they were told to; you clearly dont understand either the military, or how strong a cult of personality can be. These people were convinced Trump was being robbed of an election. That's reason enough.

If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.
Last edited by Jedi Council on Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 pm

Salus Maior wrote:Alright, and how many Democrats were supportive of the BLM riots?

Loaded and misleading, plus if you think it's a significant number look it the fuck up yourself and present it. This question is meaningless.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Cannot think of a name
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:32 pm

Picairn wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:It is an intoxicating narcotic. Maximum feeling of sophistication with minimum actual sophistication or examination.

You mean maximum appearance of sophistication with minimum actual meaning.

Both works.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Jedi Council wrote:
If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.


I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Cannot think of a name
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:35 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Jedi Council wrote:
If you cant say what those reasons are, then you are just speculating, not actually offering much in the way of evidence.


I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.

Then quit wasting everyone's time and go play Candy Crush or something instead of contributing to a false and honestly destructive narrative that has a long history of marginalizing civil rights movements.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I sure am.

I hope you realize that this isn't a serious debate for me.

Then quit wasting everyone's time...


This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Cannot think of a name
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:37 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Then quit wasting everyone's time...


This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.

Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:38 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
This is NSG, my guy.

Every minute we spend here is wasted, and ultimately pointless.

Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.


Not an excuse to get all mad either.

Nothing we say here actually matters.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

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Jedi Council
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Posts: 3951
Founded: Jan 01, 2018
Anarchy

Postby Jedi Council » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:42 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Not an excuse for making shitty arguments.


Not an excuse to get all mad either.

Nothing we say here actually matters.

The excuse of someone with no argument.
New Liberal | Humanist
Surfing NS Since 2013
Morally obligated to finish any Star Wars quote
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Jedi Council is in fact, the big gay.

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