Vietnamese fleeing from the US? I don't know any Vietnamese who were in the US who went to vietnam.
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by Ethel mermania » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 pm
by Adamede » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 pm
Super Cool Florida wrote:Not really. I mean, Vietnam was very far away from the United States. And the United States got pretty much nothing from the war expect looking very stupid afterwards and traumatizing it’s soldiers, all for what...eradicating..communism?
I can understand that because of the U.S being insanely capitalist in the 1950s and 60’s, and I know it engaged in international affairs even then, but couldn’t the U.S have used its resources on something else?
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:33 pm
Cordel One wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
What about the Vietnamese people who hurried to flee from communism in 1975? The only moral action would have been a lot more involvement.
What about the Vietnamese people who hurried to flee from the United States? North Vietnam was a popular revolution. Also, see the below post.
by Page » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:34 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Cordel One wrote:What about the Vietnamese people who hurried to flee from the United States? North Vietnam was a popular revolution. Also, see the below post.
That justifies having two Vietnams. Let those who want communism go to communism Vietnam. Let those who don’t go to non-communist Vietnam.
by Monsone » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:34 pm
by Cordel One » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:35 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Cordel One wrote:What about the Vietnamese people who hurried to flee from the United States? North Vietnam was a popular revolution. Also, see the below post.
That justifies having two Vietnams. Let those who want communism go to communism Vietnam. Let those who don’t go to non-communist Vietnam.
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:35 pm
Page wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
What about the Vietnamese people who hurried to flee from communism in 1975? The only moral action would have been a lot more involvement. The war should have been much shorter and much more decisive to minimize human cost.
At the end of a war, people who were part of the losing government generally try to get out of dodge because the winning faction tends to hold them accountable for the actions of the defeated government. This happens in basically every war. The Confederates fled at the end of the US Civil War, the nazis fled occupied Germany, Saddam's government all ran out of Baghdad in 2003, it's not a unique phenomenon of "fleeing communism."
by Tsaivao » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:35 pm
Super Cool Florida wrote:Not really. I mean, Vietnam was very far away from the United States. And the United States got pretty much nothing from the war expect looking very stupid afterwards and traumatizing it’s soldiers, all for what...eradicating..communism?
I can understand that because of the U.S being insanely capitalist in the 1950s and 60’s, and I know it engaged in international affairs even then, but couldn’t the U.S have used its resources on something else?
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by Page » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:36 pm
Monsone wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
How was South Vietnam after 1955 a colony?!
It was heavily dependent on western and namely US aid and support to not get overwhelmed by its own population in an uprising and North Vietnam's military. Yes, South Vietnam wasn't a colony in that it wasn't part of a foreign nation, but it was very much beholden to the US and its allies.
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:36 pm
Monsone wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
How was South Vietnam after 1955 a colony?!
It was heavily dependent on western and namely US aid and support to not get overwhelmed by its own population in an uprising and North Vietnam's military. Yes, South Vietnam wasn't a colony in that it wasn't part of a foreign nation, but it was very much beholden to the US and its allies.
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:37 pm
Page wrote:Monsone wrote:
It was heavily dependent on western and namely US aid and support to not get overwhelmed by its own population in an uprising and North Vietnam's military. Yes, South Vietnam wasn't a colony in that it wasn't part of a foreign nation, but it was very much beholden to the US and its allies.
Also it forced Catholicism on the population and brutally repressed Buddhism. That's what that burning monk was all about.
by Cordel One » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:37 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Page wrote:
At the end of a war, people who were part of the losing government generally try to get out of dodge because the winning faction tends to hold them accountable for the actions of the defeated government. This happens in basically every war. The Confederates fled at the end of the US Civil War, the nazis fled occupied Germany, Saddam's government all ran out of Baghdad in 2003, it's not a unique phenomenon of "fleeing communism."
It’s more than that. Lots of people who fled Communism were not in the gov. People justifiably flee from polities such as Mongol hordes, Nazis, communists, ISIS etc since they aren’t suicidal.
by Tsaivao » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:37 pm
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by Senkaku » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:38 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Tsaivao wrote:Many South Vietnamese also fled to the north as well.
This was less an ideological conflict and more an anti-colonial one. South Vietnam was going to lose whether or not we intervened on their behalf.
How was South Vietnam after 1955 a colony?! You are mistaking the First Indochina War from the Second.
by Cordel One » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:38 pm
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:38 pm
Cordel One wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
It’s more than that. Lots of people who fled Communism were not in the gov. People justifiably flee from polities such as Mongol hordes, Nazis, communists, ISIS etc since they aren’t suicidal.
Completely ignoring that people flee invasions by the United States and literally everyone else.
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:39 pm
Senkaku wrote:Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:
How was South Vietnam after 1955 a colony?! You are mistaking the First Indochina War from the Second.
The American ambassador's borderline-proconsular influence on the ostensibly sovereign Saigon government's decisionmaking and even its composition should at least raise doubts as to whether we can really characterize South Vietnam as fully decolonized (especially when you factor in the continued influence of Francified colonial elites in the government and the military right up to the end). No, it wasn't as formally under imperial control as it was under France, but...
by Page » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:39 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Page wrote:
Also it forced Catholicism on the population and brutally repressed Buddhism. That's what that burning monk was all about.
That was indeed a real problem. However US did not cause it. It was the incel Ngo Dinh Diem who did it. The Thieu regime was more moderate but similar to the Diem regime.
by Monsone » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:40 pm
Page wrote:Monsone wrote:
It was heavily dependent on western and namely US aid and support to not get overwhelmed by its own population in an uprising and North Vietnam's military. Yes, South Vietnam wasn't a colony in that it wasn't part of a foreign nation, but it was very much beholden to the US and its allies.
Also it forced Catholicism on the population and brutally repressed Buddhism. That's what that burning monk was all about.
by Cordel One » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:40 pm
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:41 pm
by Nekostan-e Gharbi » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:41 pm
Monsone wrote:Page wrote:
Also it forced Catholicism on the population and brutally repressed Buddhism. That's what that burning monk was all about.
It wasn't just one monk. It was several. And you know you've lost a war when your own people are burning themselves to death, aiding the enemy, defecting to the enemy, or outright taking up arms against you.
by Senkaku » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:42 pm
by Insaanistan » Mon Jan 11, 2021 3:42 pm
Nekostan-e Gharbi wrote:Senkaku wrote:The American ambassador's borderline-proconsular influence on the ostensibly sovereign Saigon government's decisionmaking and even its composition should at least raise doubts as to whether we can really characterize South Vietnam as fully decolonized (especially when you factor in the continued influence of Francified colonial elites in the government and the military right up to the end). No, it wasn't as formally under imperial control as it was under France, but...
That’s a really funny definition of “colony”. Well, I guess Nigeria remains a British colony today, right? Not all post-colonial governments are established by anti-colonial fighters. Guess what? Countries such as Malaysia are legit too.
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