The Rise of China

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Ironically China is actually what’s closest to fascism on this planet now. Unlike communism I don’t think fascism has a tendency to collapse on its own. This is why it probably has to be abolished by the rest of the world.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/is-chi ... ist-state/

I would absolutely classify China as fascist. From its state-controlled capitalist economy, the totalitarianism, imperialism and expansionism, the nationalism, one-party state, and the one-man rule of Xi. I don't see China collapsing anytime soon, its people are very supporting of the government, as its policies have contributed to reduced poverty and prosperity for them. They have become a strong and powerful nation under the Communist Party. That's all that matters to most of them.

I don't abolishing China is a good idea, or that China collapsing would be good in the long run. I think a new leader after Xi could turn things around for the better, but that remains to be seen. Could you imagine if China collapsed, the wars and conflicts, the economic disaster that would cause?

China collapsing is likely going to lead to tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of deaths. This is precisely why the abolition of China needs to come from the rest of the world. We don’t exactly want Zhang Xianzhongs nuking each other and releasing all bioweapons such as Ebola. That’s going to affect even Africa. What did Africans do to deserve Chinese warlords unleashing all known deadly viruses on them? Nothing.

[Jershaland]

I would absolutely classify China as fascist. From its state-controlled capitalist economy, the totalitarianism, imperialism and expansionism, the nationalism, one-party state, and the one-man rule of Xi. I don't see China collapsing anytime soon, its people are very supporting of the government, as its policies have contributed to reduced poverty and prosperity for them. They have become a strong and powerful nation under the Communist Party. That's all that matters to most of them.

I don't abolishing China is a good idea, or that China collapsing would be good in the long run. I think a new leader after Xi could turn things around for the better, but that remains to be seen. Could you imagine if China collapsed, the wars and conflicts, the economic disaster that would cause?

China collapsing is likely going to lead to tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of deaths. This is precisely why the abolition of China needs to come from the rest of the world. We don’t exactly want Zhang Xianzhongs nuking each other and releasing all bioweapons such as Ebola.

The only way I'd support abolishing China is if various successor states took over. For example, a Tibet Republic, independent Hong Kong, Manchuria, etc. I would love to see a Republic of China covering the whole of China, but I don't see that ever happening.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

China collapsing is likely going to lead to tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of deaths. This is precisely why the abolition of China needs to come from the rest of the world. We don’t exactly want Zhang Xianzhongs nuking each other and releasing all bioweapons such as Ebola.

The only way I'd support abolishing China is if various successor states took over. For example, a Tibet Republic, independent Hong Kong, Manchuria, etc. I would love to see a Republic of China covering the whole of China, but I don't see that ever happening.

Definitely other than the ROC covering China which is bad for Taiwanese and China Proper needs to be properly de-authoritarianized so that it won’t elect Sinostatist rulers and revert to authoritarianism. Put anti-Sinostatism and liberal democratic values on national exams and it will work pretty well in eliminating Sinostatism once and for all. After all Sinostatism isn’t a religion and it is much easier to deal with compared to many other authoritarian ideologies. 25-50 years of treatment are sufficient to cure it and the world won’t have to deal with an authoritarianism-exporting, human rights-denying entity again.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Pro-CCP communists clashing with moderates clashing with those wanting China to be fractured?

Tbf the last one is just one user, a very vocal one but still

That’s actually not true. Liu Zhongjing’s supporters here (aka Auntologists) also want to abolish China but their successor states are likely to be brutal and not significantly better than China since Liu is a sociopath.

[Picairn]

The rise of China is a self-evident truth. What I want to see is the Western response and so far they haven't even lifted a finger at seriously containing China's influence across Asia.

[Nakena]

Tbf the last one is just one user, a very vocal one but still

That’s actually not true. Liu Zhongjing’s supporters here (aka Auntologists) also want to abolish China but their successor states are likely to be brutal and not significantly better than China since Liu is a sociopath.

I'd imagine the rise of techno-oligarchic totalitarian warring states in that case who would brutally fight it out against each other. Sort of neo-feudal petty kingdoms of the 21th century. It would definetively be nasty.

Altough some areas like Hong Kong and maybe Guangdong could become commercial cyberpunk republics and centers of trade and innovation.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

That’s actually not true. Liu Zhongjing’s supporters here (aka Auntologists) also want to abolish China but their successor states are likely to be brutal and not significantly better than China since Liu is a sociopath.

I'd imagine the rise of techno-oligarchic totalitarian warring states in that case who would brutally fight it out against each other. Sort of neo-feudal petty kingdoms of the 21th century. It would definetively be nasty.

Altough some areas like Hong Kong and maybe Guangdong could become commercial cyberpunk republics and centers of trade and innovation.

Knowing Liu this is probably actually something he wants to see. I would say this dude is definitely world class in terms of Machiavellian thought. He is also self-aware. In a moral feudal society he champions he himself should not exist.

[Elizio]

China is an authoritarian state arguably currently committing genocide against its Muslim population. It is also imperialistic. So if your looking for peace they aren't the ones that are going to bring it.

Don't forget their active suppression of any dissent (as well as their ridiculous censorship of calling Xi Jinping "Winnie the Pooh"). China's rise to global power will only lead to the rise of authoritarianism.

It just goes to show that Nixon was truly an idiot for even thinking of going to China, as was anyone else with the same idea.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Don't forget their active suppression of any dissent (as well as their ridiculous censorship of calling Xi Jinping "Winnie the Pooh"). China's rise to global power will only lead to the rise of authoritarianism.

It just goes to show that Nixon was truly an idiot for even thinking of going to China, as was anyone else with the same idea.

Yup. It is a much more harmful entity than the Soviet Union. Only Nazi Germany is comparable in terms of how bad it is.

[Cordel One]

No, please, not another China thread!

[Picairn]

No, please, not another China thread!

Yeah it needs to stop. By this time, I can already predict who's gonna be on what side and what's gonna get posted. Nothing new or helpful.

[Cordel One]

No, please, not another China thread!

Yeah it needs to stop. By this time, I can already predict who's gonna be on what side and what's gonna get posted. Nothing new or helpful.

I don't mind the idea of a thread on China's general behavior, but having three or four of them going simulataneously is a bit much.

[The Old Xia Dynasty]

Epic News

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Epic News

The abolition of China will be more epic.

[Picairn]

I don't mind the idea of a thread on China's general behavior, but having three or four of them going simulataneously is a bit much.

The OP is sufficient to be a post in the Evil Empire thread as a counterbalance to the prevailing narrative, sparking a new discussion from a different angle. But no, we let it die, and create a new one instead. It's problematic.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I don't mind the idea of a thread on China's general behavior, but having three or four of them going simulataneously is a bit much.

The OP is sufficient to be a post in the Evil Empire thread as a counterbalance to the prevailing narrative, sparking a new discussion from a different angle. But no, we let it die, and create a new one instead. It's problematic.

I think we need one and only one megathread on the topic of China. Stuff such as East Turkestan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc deserve their separate threads since they are not uncontroversially in China. However making these separate threads also has a problem. What else do we even discuss about China? Tian’anmen protests? Falun Gong? Guo Wengui? Auntologists? Here is something really weird: most PRC problems outside these regions are anything but well known outside China.

[Punished UMN]

Last time I checked, Singapore got expelled from Malaysia after the British manacled the two states together, and that Singapore has remained independent ever since...

That said, I do think Hong Kong and Macau will inevitably be integrated after 2047/2049, while in the long term, the only viable solution to Taiwan's political situation is either for it to be a mere province within the Chinese nation, or for Beijing to give it a special administrative region status.

That’s essentially a might makes right argument. If that’s the case then why do we even oppose human rights abuses? I mean, the only viable solution to the problem of Jews existing is the Holocaust, said Nazis..

From a poster who repeatedly criticizes people for being moralists instead of realists, this is a strange post.

Might doesn't make right, but it does make the reality that we have to live with.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

That’s essentially a might makes right argument. If that’s the case then why do we even oppose human rights abuses? I mean, the only viable solution to the problem of Jews existing is the Holocaust, said Nazis..

From a poster who repeatedly criticizes people for being moralists instead of realists, this is a strange post.

Might doesn't make right, but it does make the reality that we have to live with.

My intention of criticizing moralism is not to abolish morality. Instead it is to reduce hypocrisy.

I do agree with you on the last sentence. Hence we should discuss the feasibility of the abolition which I believe is pretty high. China does not trust its own military which is highly corrupt, does not have a military tradition and considers soldiers and veterans low status people. It should be fairly easy to abolish.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Thank you, CCP, for allowing a virus to spread out of control, prospering while we suffer, gloating about how superior you are, and sanctioning and threatening anyone who dares to call you out on your disgusting, unforgivable bullshit, especially the Australians. Rather than express remorse and offer reparations for your criminal negligence, you have chosen to prosper while millions of people die. You have the blood of over 300,000 Americans and 1.8 million people on your hands.

China is being rewarded, rather than punished, for a pandemic that it covered up and failed to contain, and it is being rewarded for the deaths of 1.8 million people around the world. This is fundamentally cruel and unjust. The only way to correct this injustice is via crippling economic sanctions and post-pandemic reparations, come what may. The Chinese economy must be crippled and set back until the country either liberalizes politically, the CCP is overthrown in an internal revolution, or India catches up.

Given that China is already a totalitarian, fascist-communist hybrid state and not a democracy as Weimar Germany was, there is zero political risk of a fascist or communist dictator seizing power because a fascist-communist dictator is already in power. There is no reason to hold back now. If anything, sanctions will foment an internal revolution all without a single foreign bullet being fired. Continued neoliberal appeasement, on the other hand, has done nothing but strengthen and embolden the sick, psychopathic communist regime, especially over the past 20 years or so.

Might makes right is the only language these butchers and tyrants understand. Goodwill and failure to enforce red lines is invariably interpreted as a sign of weakness, resulting in a redoubling of the atrocities they were perpetrating beforehand. This is true of the Assad regime in Syria when it intensified its bombing and shelling of Syrian cities following Russian and Chinese vetoes of UN resolutions at the Security Council in 2012 and 2013, and it is certainly true of Russia and China. China, incidentally, has Syrian blood on its hands. Therefore, we must show the PRC who is strong and who is weak. There is no such thing as "international law". There is only the law of the jungle. All's fair in love and war, and we are at war with China. A cold war.

My only consolation is the fact that America, India, Japan, Australia, Canada, and Europe can all stand together to counter the Red Dragon before it devours us whole, whereas China stands alone because playground bullies deserve to be shunned and ostracized. Of all these countries, I believe India has the most potential. We shall overcome.

The OP is sufficient to be a post in the Evil Empire thread as a counterbalance to the prevailing narrative, sparking a new discussion from a different angle. But no, we let it die, and create a new one instead. It's problematic.

I think we need one and only one megathread on the topic of China. Stuff such as East Turkestan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc deserve their separate threads since they are not uncontroversially in China. However making these separate threads also has a problem. What else do we even discuss about China? Tian’anmen protests? Falun Gong? Guo Wengui? Auntologists? Here is something really weird: most PRC problems outside these regions are anything but well known outside China.

We absolutely should have a China megathread. Unfortunately, the mods refuse to sanction one, so we're stuck with multiple China-related threads being posted and players complaining about it.

[Stellar Colonies]

Please for the love of god, can we make a megathread for the PRC and just contain all discussion of it to that, like others have said?
At this point, NSG has its own Godwin's Law for everything leading back to it, with that path ideally going into the aforementioned hypothetical megathread.

I’ve just read that China’s economy may overtake the US economy as world number one by 2028.

I am very excited about this and I would hope that China can avoid some of the pitfalls (ex fighting expensive and controversial wars to topple governments oceans away) that other top economic powers have run into. I am hoping for a new century of peace, economic cooperation and global growth. While Chinese economic partnerships in Africa and elsewhere have created some inequality (which in my view is inevitable), they have also objectively brought up the GDPs of those countries by providing capital. I would hope that China continues its trademark policies of encouraging win-win economic solutions and opportunities for everyone.

Sources:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... a-55454146

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... vertake-us

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... my-earlier

NSG, what do you think the world will look like? I am very optimistic.

I’ve just read that China’s economy may overtake the US economy as world number one by 2028.

It certainly could, although a lot could change in seven years.

I am very excited about this

I'm sure you are.

and I would hope that China can avoid some of the pitfalls (ex fighting expensive and controversial wars to topple governments oceans away) that other top economic powers have run into.

Lol. The only reason it isn't already doing so globally is because that would piss off the already-established world superpower, slipping as it may be. If they manage to displace the US and become dominant, they'll do precisely the same thing, with their own unique twist. Not sure if they'd objectively be worse than the US for those countries, but it wouldn't be better for those vassalized states except for when their prosperity boosts the PRC's prosperity. If their poverty benefits the PRC, tough luck.

I am hoping for a new century of peace, economic cooperation and global growth.

I'm sure.

While Chinese economic partnerships in Africa and elsewhere have created some inequality (which in my view is inevitable)

How surprising.

they have also objectively brought up the GDPs of those countries by providing capital

Higher GDP does not automatically equate to higher prosperity for the people, and could also be the reverse in reality.

I would hope that China continues its trademark policies

They will to the extent that they are able to do so.

of encouraging win-win economic solutions and opportunities for everyone

Not everyone...

Countries are not charitable, especially superpowers, and do not do things out of the goodness of their hearts.

They have interests, and those interests benefit others if it benefits said superpower. If those interests are bad for the little guy, well...

Forgive me for referencing a children's movie, but Xi is Lord Business, not Santa Claus.

NSG, what do you think the world will look like?

The same, but with a bit more technology (because it's the future, not because Superpower A is magically better than Superpower B at developing it on a case by case and merit by merit basis), a slightly worse climate crisis (because it's the future, not because Superpower A is magically worse than Superpower B at screwing it up on a case by case and merit by merit basis), and some McDonald's-like red and yellow paint sprayed everywhere (because of fake communism / state capitalism).

I am very optimistic

At best, I am room temperature.

[Willtime]

Again and again.
Same and same.
Tired.

[Jershaland]

I always wonder what would China be like if it continued on the path of Maoism. I assume it would probably end up like North Korea or have collapsed by now. Deng absolutely saved China in my opinion, with his acceptance of the market economy. Despite his extreme authoritarianism, Deng is 100% the best leader China has ever had. The CCP rationalizes that it is still a Marxist party, however, despite the fact that China has tons of billionaires and private companies and that the CCP actively supports this. All of that is a good thing, of course, but I don't understand how they can continue to actually believe they are socialists.

China is going to continue to try and increase its influence in the world. I honestly worry for its neighbors too, as China is on a expansionist streak.

[Willtime]

I always wonder what would China be like if it continued on the path of Maoism. I assume it would probably end up like North Korea or have collapsed by now. Deng absolutely saved China in my opinion, with his acceptance of the market economy. Despite his extreme authoritarianism, Deng is 100% the best leader China has ever had. The CCP rationalizes that it is still a Marxist party, however, despite the fact that China has tons of billionaires and private companies and that the CCP actively supports this. All of that is a good thing, of course, but I don't understand how they can continue to actually believe they are socialists.

China is going to continue to try and increase its influence in the world. I honestly worry for its neighbors too, as China is on a expansionist streak.

By modifying the definition of socialism.
I can use the same method to prove that the United States is not a capitalist country.
For example, I can claim that , after Roosevelt’s New Deal, the United States is no longer capitalist due to a large amount of state-owned investment.
China is still using the old definition of communism, but the definition of socialism is very 'broad' in China.
Moreover, Chinese officials say that they are socialism, and American officials say that China is communism. Look, they have reached a certain degree of consensus: "At least not capitalism."
Such a bad joke.

There is no need to worry about the world after the United States has fallen before the United States has fallen, just as there is no need to worry about the Frankish Empire before Rome has fallen.
Worrying about China's influence at this time is like thinking that American influence has declined.
And the United States has not yet declined.

[Jershaland]

I always wonder what would China be like if it continued on the path of Maoism. I assume it would probably end up like North Korea or have collapsed by now. Deng absolutely saved China in my opinion, with his acceptance of the market economy. Despite his extreme authoritarianism, Deng is 100% the best leader China has ever had. The CCP rationalizes that it is still a Marxist party, however, despite the fact that China has tons of billionaires and private companies and that the CCP actively supports this. All of that is a good thing, of course, but I don't understand how they can continue to actually believe they are socialists.

China is going to continue to try and increase its influence in the world. I honestly worry for its neighbors too, as China is on a expansionist streak.

By modifying the definition of socialism.
I can use the same method to prove that the United States is not a capitalist country.
For example, I can claim that , after Roosevelt’s New Deal, the United States is no longer capitalist due to a large amount of state-owned investment.
China is still using the old definition of communism, but the definition of socialism is very 'broad' in China.
Moreover, Chinese officials say that they are socialism, and American officials say that China is communism. Look, they have reached a certain degree of consensus: "At least not capitalism."
Such a bad joke.

There is no need to worry about the world after the United States has fallen before the United States has fallen, just as there is no need to worry about the Frankish Empire before Rome has fallen.
Worrying about China's influence at this time is like thinking that American influence has declined.
And the United States has not yet declined.

The United States absolutely declined. Its role as world-leader is all but gone. Our alliances are hardly worth the treaties they're written on. China has increased its influence in Asia, Russia has increased its influence in Eastern Europe, and Iran continues to expand its influence in the Middle East, all while the US sits by and does nothing.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I always wonder what would China be like if it continued on the path of Maoism. I assume it would probably end up like North Korea or have collapsed by now. Deng absolutely saved China in my opinion, with his acceptance of the market economy. Despite his extreme authoritarianism, Deng is 100% the best leader China has ever had. The CCP rationalizes that it is still a Marxist party, however, despite the fact that China has tons of billionaires and private companies and that the CCP actively supports this. All of that is a good thing, of course, but I don't understand how they can continue to actually believe they are socialists.

China is going to continue to try and increase its influence in the world. I honestly worry for its neighbors too, as China is on a expansionist streak.

By modifying the definition of socialism.
I can use the same method to prove that the United States is not a capitalist country.
For example, I can claim that , after Roosevelt’s New Deal, the United States is no longer capitalist due to a large amount of state-owned investment.
China is still using the old definition of communism, but the definition of socialism is very 'broad' in China.
Moreover, Chinese officials say that they are socialism, and American officials say that China is communism. Look, they have reached a certain degree of consensus: "At least not capitalism."
Such a bad joke.

There is no need to worry about the world after the United States has fallen before the United States has fallen, just as there is no need to worry about the Frankish Empire before Rome has fallen.
Worrying about China's influence at this time is like thinking that American influence has declined.
And the United States has not yet declined.

Uh I don’t consider China a mostly geopolitical problem. So the issue here isn’t whether it will rule the world. It won’t.

However China is a major source of global authoritarianism and surveillance tech as well as absence of labor rights worldwide as it completely distorts the social balance of power worldwide. These are much more serious problems. China is not going to rule the world. However it is on track to destroy liberty worldwide from which the world might not recover.