Founderless Dispatch IV: 20% of Our Board are Raiders

[The New Cordian Empire]

It would not serve our interests, nor the interests of innocent regions, to close the door on relations with groups whose actions we do not always condone.

Innocent regions like NationStates that was just raided by your friends, with your support (now made material by the ridiculous telegram you sent to that region)

We sent the telegram after the raid, and we did not participate. How does that constitute support for the raid itself?

whose residents have consecutively elected Mikeswill twice daily for the last 17 years.

I'm sure the elections that you cite were completely fair, with multiple participants, all of them having the same chance, people casting their votes for the objectively better candidate, and with all candidates willingly participating with the knowledge that an election was occurring and with the goal of becoming delegate... right?

I don't know what's funnier, the pretzels you guys have to tie yourselves into to justify this, or the sad CYA telegram you sent to the region of NationStates to make the justification super official.

We are justifying the telegram, not the raid itself. Founderless' opinion is that the raid was unjust, and the Rangers did not participate. Read up.

[RiderSyl]

I would really love it if raiders stopped trying to drive a wedge between us and TGW/Lily. It ain't happening. Feels like an attempt to break up defenders and independent groups that work with us, and make us hate each other. This ain't 2010/11. I like to think we've learned from past internal conflicts.

Sure we might not agree on everything. That doesn't mean we're gonna stop working together to beat raiders in our own ways. We might go separately occasionally, but where we find common ground we will build.

See I like this, but then I read this...

Declaring yourself "independent" and participating in defences here and there as it suits the independents does not forgive them for their moral turpitude accumulated from raids. "Independent" has, and always has been, a very thinly veiled smokescreen for "raider sympathist".

Feels like raiders didn't need to drive the wedge very far to get it in there...

[King HEM]

Declaring yourself "independent" and participating in defences here and there as it suits the independents does not forgive them for their moral turpitude accumulated from raids. "Independent" has, and always has been, a very thinly veiled smokescreen for "raider sympathist".

Feels like raiders didn't need to drive the wedge very far to get it in there...

I'm sure that comment from Falconias was directed more to traditionally "Independent" regions like Europeia (or in this case, Nationstates). What he fails to realize is that a wide variety of regions these days prefer to pursue their own interests and not kowtow to some arbitrary doctrine of "morality" dictated by outsiders.

In his absence, as it turns out, we're all Independents now.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Honestly, though I hate the word independent in a GP context, (IMO Lily are the only true independent org, though arguments could be made for EPSA and NPA), you’ve got a point HEM. Though as someone who despises Keynes I’d prefer to use the Kacey Musgraves metaphor of following your arrow wherever it points. Economists... ew.

[Dendarii Mercenaries]

What political advantage is there to moralism - if you are a defender you are, by nature, moralistic. The question therefore becomes, what political advantage is there to either soft moralism or hard moralism?

Nope. I never cared about morals. I cared more about playing king of the hill, being a defender was coincidental. Being a good guy or wanting to protect or do the right thing or whatever was not ever the reason I had joined the FRA, and in doing so became a Defender, in 2008. It's because I wanted to do more things in the game and the people that found me first happened to be Defenders (Delta Golf Sierra, Hammer, TripleKo).

[Northern Chittowa]

Fair enough, not everyone falls into exact categories and my comment was more of a generlisation I suppose.

Equally though I would say you are an exception rather than the rule - those who normally share the same view as you, the 'king of the hill' aspect, would normally become raider as its easier to do than on the defender side of the spectrum.

EDIT: thinking about it, your point about the fact that it was defenders that found you first is an interesting one - with this being a 'game', often those who recruit you first will mold you in heir image, or ideology.

[Gorundu]

It would not serve our interests, nor the interests of innocent regions, to close the door on relations with groups whose actions we do not always condone.

Innocent regions like NationStates that was just raided by your friends, with your support (now made material by the ridiculous telegram you sent to that region), whose residents have consecutively elected Mikeswill twice daily for the last 17 years. I don't know what's funnier, the pretzels you guys have to tie yourselves into to justify this, or the sad CYA telegram you sent to the region of NationStates to make the justification super official.

Ah yes, very free and fair elections where the only candidate is Mikeswill because no other nation is allowed to exceed the endorsement limit, which is always set below the number of endorsement Mikeswill has.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Feels like raiders didn't need to drive the wedge very far to get it in there...

Differences of opinion aren't a wedge. I think Falc is coming at this from a different point of view than I am, one based on the older model where it was true - orgs that called themselves independent were raiders that labeled themselves that way to avoid being painted as the bad guys. Nowadays there are orgs that genuinely operate on both sides and make meaningful contributions to both. And while I think it's a boring way to play, for once there are truly independent orgs, which is not something we've really known. That's probably the word y'all missed in my above statement. Lily are what I consider to be a true independent org and not just a veil for raider sympathizing players who are trying to absolve themselves of guilt.

This is obviously a difference of opinion between me and Falc and it doesn't mean we hate each other's guts. It's not a wedge. A wedge is like what happened in Marjiuana Militia between TITO and the FRA. Or the UDL vs everyone. We're not going back to those days and no amount of raiders trying to start internal fighting is gonna do that.We're allowed to disagree without thinking other players are bad people.

[Comfed]

I'm sure the elections that you cite were completely fair, with multiple participants, all of them having the same chance, people casting their votes for the objectively better candidate, and with all candidates willingly participating with the knowledge that an election was occurring and with the goal of becoming delegate... right?

Have you considered that no one else wants to run? Don’t force democracy on regions.

[Falconias]

It would not serve our interests, nor the interests of innocent regions, to close the door on relations with groups whose actions we do not always condone.

whose residents have consecutively elected Mikeswill twice daily for the last 17 years

The rest of your post was answered adequately by others, but this is some of the silliest mental gymnastics I've read in this thread.

Have you considered that no one else wants to run? Don’t force democracy on regions.

Ah yes because clearly there is ample opportunity for someone to "run" in NationStates. Come on man. Use your noggin. Not to mention our region - like it or not - is dedicated to ensuring sovereignty for all. A flagrant untruthful propaganda machine in one of NS's most storied regions is something we are very much politically against.

Feel I need to clarify one last time... we do NOT condone in any manner whatsoever TGW/Lily/et al's delegacy-tipping in NationStates. Other options should have been executed before resorting to military action for the sake of making a point. However, we do share their views re: Mikeswill. Not sure if that is genuinely confusing to others in this thread, or if they are purposefully using selective hearing to take potshots from the peanut gallery.

[Makdon]

Have you considered that no one else wants to run? Don’t force democracy on regions.

Founderless isn't forcing democracy on anyone. The post you're quoting was simply refuting a claim made by a Funk that Nationstates is democratic. Which it obviously isn't. In the future, it might be useful to try and actually understand the context of what people are saying instead of doing the bare minimum of effort required to make pointless and idiotic post which contributes nothing. Just an idea

[RiderSyl]

Alrighty, I'm not paranoid about Founderless having bad opinions of Lily anymore. Y'all are super charismatic. I'm impressed.

[A Bloodred Moon]

I would really love it if raiders stopped trying to drive a wedge between us and TGW/Lily. It ain't happening. Feels like an attempt to break up defenders and independent groups that work with us, and make us hate each other. This ain't 2010/11. I like to think we've learned from past internal conflicts.

Believe me, no one here is under the illusion Founderless would break ties with TGW - on the contrary, we are pointing out that your statement is nothing but a hypocritical lie. In fact, we expect you to fully continue working with TGW, since the first thing you did was undermine the delegate they knocked down. For all your heart-warming rhetoric about principles and morals and native rights and what not, your belief in all of those disappears the second they become inconvenient - telling natives they should consider choosing a different delegate because you don't like their current native delegate does not quite sound like respecting sovereignty.

Additionally, I was not in the Rangers at that time, so Karp's statement stands.

It might stand technically, but aren’t you Founderless’ head of government, and were at the time of the operation?

(IMO Lily are the only true independent org, though arguments could be made for EPSA and NPA)

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the independent alignment, but that is no surprise; after all, pull a raid and defenders will label you as “raider-lite”, “moralless”, “compassionless” and a whole bunch of terms - see what Falconias had to say on the topic. Independent means having the ability to both raid and defend, depending on your interests. “Arbitrarily defending enough to please defenders” is not a requirement for being independent.

Lily are what I consider to be a true independent org and not just a veil for raider sympathizing players who are trying to absolve themselves of guilt.

You are assuming anyone would or should feel guilty over invading, or even see themselves as "guilty" of anything. That is not the case.

[Falconias]

It might stand technically, but aren’t you Founderless’ head of government, and were at the time of the operation?

That's an internal matter we've addressed with NCE. No further comment will be made.

The rest of your post is not worth responding to. Same dogwhistling we've heard for years.

[Vrolondia]

I would really love it if raiders stopped trying to drive a wedge between us and TGW/Lily. It ain't happening. Feels like an attempt to break up defenders and independent groups that work with us, and make us hate each other. This ain't 2010/11. I like to think we've learned from past internal conflicts.

Believe me, no one here is under the illusion Founderless would break ties with TGW - on the contrary, we are pointing out that your statement is nothing but a hypocritical lie. In fact, we expect you to fully continue working with TGW, since the first thing you did was undermine the delegate they knocked down. For all your heart-warming rhetoric about principles and morals and native rights and what not, your belief in all of those disappears the second they become inconvenient - telling natives they should consider choosing a different delegate because you don't like their current native delegate does not quite sound like respecting sovereignty.

Additionally, I was not in the Rangers at that time, so Karp's statement stands.

It might stand technically, but aren’t you Founderless’ head of government, and were at the time of the operation?

(IMO Lily are the only true independent org, though arguments could be made for EPSA and NPA)

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the independent alignment, but that is no surprise; after all, pull a raid and defenders will label you as “raider-lite”, “moralless”, “compassionless” and a whole bunch of terms - see what Falconias had to say on the topic. Independent means having the ability to both raid and defend, depending on your interests. “Arbitrarily defending enough to please defenders” is not a requirement for being independent.

Lily are what I consider to be a true independent org and not just a veil for raider sympathizing players who are trying to absolve themselves of guilt.

You are assuming anyone would or should feel guilty over invading, or even see themselves as "guilty" of anything. That is not the case.

People are allowed to disagree, especially people with different priorities. A big reason I left GP years ago was the hypocrisy of defenders invading and toppling raider regions. Problem with defenders is they always default to defending everyone, which makes them everyone's enemy, unless it's convenient and suddenly they're everyone's friend. If you're a neutral it doesn't matter to make friends with defenders; they will help you anyways, so you favour raiders for protection. Thanks to UDL and later TGW, it seems everyone's an R/D-casual these days, which harks back to the original reasons defenders came into existence; to protect themselves, their allies, and everyone who asked. It's only natural that would evolve into moral defender-ism, it's hard not to slip into it, and it became the baseline for protecting yourself from falling into the raider mentality of "Screw everyone else, I want to have fun!"; but when you do it solely for the moral superiority you easily lose faith in it when things start to fall apart. I found that TGW have moved the moral superiority aspect as secondary in favor of the raider mentality other defenders are afraid of; Screw fair, I win.

And honestly? It works because they're not traditionalists, and unlike other Defenders who've toppled regions, or independents with Raider activities, they've never claimed the Defender moral superiority in what they do; they hunt, chase, and topple because it's fun, and screw raiders because they're the other team. It is, in essence, what the game has largely been missing since 2005; independent game-players who are predominately but not exclusively Defender, which is why they get a long so well with Lily, another independent org more raider-aligned. The result has been a larger shift in alignment so Independents are more responsive to defenders for protection, as their protection is no longer guaranteed, because it's not actually about them anymore, it's about having fun, it's about the chase, and Defender/Invader is now two factions connected; Defenders these days seem less bogged down with the moral issues of being a hypocrite and more concerned with having fun with raiders as opposed to against them. The result is that they're responsive to Invaders tactics without falling into it, and there are a few reason why I think that is:

1) Defending is harder, thus more rewarding. This draws people in after they get bored of raiding, and they're not actually discouraged from participating in the defender-sphere anymore.
2)When you're not penalized for enjoying the topple, or haven't praised the defender code enough, it's easier to stick around. Old defenders used to be sticklers for rules, now the line is blurred enough you can sit on it and have the freedom to come back; you don't actually need to choose because regardless of what you choose you've inherited enemies. The difference is no longer "I'm good, you're bad!" the difference is "You run, I chase!"
2) Raiding is about power, screwing people is secondary to the satisfaction of being in control. Defending is the exact same thing, except you're channeling that screwing into one particular set of people by taking that control away.

Not every raider is a bad person, but the hardline crashers are as insufferable to listen to for Defenders as Defender-Moralists are to Invaders. And its entirely the indifference towards human decency, and apathy towards change for the better.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

Action photo of LWU as 30+ defenders descended on The New Commonwealth Society

Sleepytime

I'm really tired right now. But not nearly as tired as these adorable furballs must be. These cute and cuddly wolves you see up there must have spent a lot of time wandering around, because when we found them they were exhausted. Curled up in cute little balls around one another, positively adorable. Unfortunately, when we found them they were fast asleep in territory that wasn't supposed to be theirs. Fortunately, we, the professionally-trained Park Rangers, have a lot of experience when it comes to escorting invasive species out of places they're not supposed to be. Wolves, hawks, and other such creatures like to wander into places they don't belong, and we Park Rangers took it upon ourselves to carefully and gently extract them from the off-limits area and send them back to their homes. We even brought enough friends to make sure that the wolves could keep snoozing and the natives whose own slumber party they so rudely interrupted could go on without anyone noticing anything was different. One wolf appeared to stir a little, but these Rangers were so well-trained that everything was over and the wolves were safely escorted out in just about 7 seconds. And then all was peaceful. The wolves could continue with their adorable snoozing in another, safer, location.

Slumber Party Relocated
The New Commonwealth Society

Park Rangers on Extraction Duty
Commander W&S/Velvet Elvis
Commander Jamie/Secret Chimes

Founderless is proud to announce that W&S (that's right, that's me!) and Jamie will be joining Karputsk in command of the Rangers! Should you wish to join our team of Professional Sleepytime Extractors, please reach out to any of us three. And now, of course, it's time for us to give a huge thanks to all our friends who joined us on this very sleepy liberation.

Sleepytime Support Squad

The Rejected Realms Army
Frattastan
Bowshot
Fauxia
Kyorgia
Minskiev
Vis

The South Pacific Special Forces
[SPSF/TGW]Nakari
[SPSF/TGW] Swifty
Doctor Kane
Melix
Phoenix

Lily
Sylvia

Thaecia/The East Pacific Sovereign Army
Altys

The Order of the Grey Wardens
[TGW/EU]Vincent Drake
Altmoras
Astral
Boda
Deadeye Jack
Haku
Lorum Ipsem
Matthew
Sir Merlin
Viclasi

The Union of Democratic States Armed Forces
[UDSAF/LCA]Kade
Isles

And of course, the 10000 Islands Treaty Organization, who don't track the names of all their participants in Libcord, but we love them all the same. Except HumanSanity, who banned me from 10ki's Discord for being too good at cards.

[Boda]

A founderless report!

[Of crazed]

I am so happy I stumbled upon this thread. Really made me nostalgic for why I love Nationations, and making me feel I feel like I am in 2004, same faces and everything.

Glad to see the same foolish bay antics. Nothing is more hilarious seeing the "moral defenders" of the game tripping over themselves with glee about that the most successful delegate of all time, founderless or not, getting raided.

The longest serving delegate in NationStates history. A delegate for 17 years. And a region called founderless generates a handful of essays about how the delegate deserved it because he didn't treat raiders like dirt and didn't make the defenders feel good about themselves for being the "good guys".

Good luck with using morality as a recruitment tool. Please never change

[Comfed]

This report made me laugh. The picture of the wolves was a nice touch.

[Falconias]

I am so happy I stumbled upon this thread. Really made me nostalgic for why I love Nationations, and making me feel I feel like I am in 2004, same faces and everything.

Glad to see the same foolish bay antics. Nothing is more hilarious seeing the "moral defenders" of the game tripping over themselves with glee about that the most successful delegate of all time, founderless or not, getting raided.

The longest serving delegate in NationStates history. A delegate for 17 years. And a region called founderless generates a handful of essays about how the delegate deserved it because he didn't treat raiders like dirt and didn't make the defenders feel good about themselves for being the "good guys".

Good luck with using morality as a recruitment tool. Please never change

[Numero Capitan]

I am so happy I stumbled upon this thread. Really made me nostalgic for why I love Nationations, and making me feel I feel like I am in 2004, same faces and everything.

Glad to see the same foolish bay antics. Nothing is more hilarious seeing the "moral defenders" of the game tripping over themselves with glee about that the most successful delegate of all time, founderless or not, getting raided.

The longest serving delegate in NationStates history. A delegate for 17 years. And a region called founderless generates a handful of essays about how the delegate deserved it because he didn't treat raiders like dirt and didn't make the defenders feel good about themselves for being the "good guys".

Good luck with using morality as a recruitment tool. Please never change

Oh hiii

Nationations is my favorite game too

[Apostate]

I did so miss the salty fendas! No one can weave a yarn like you old boys!

[The Sedge]

Update #2. Falc's one still doesn't count.

Population Milestone

At the time of our last update, our population was not very much. We've now smashed our recruitment target and hit 100 nations - and we're still growing! Next target is to overtake Lone Wolves United oh wait, we already did that. Hmm, The Order of The Grey Wardens are on 160 nations - it's about time someone knocked them off their "3rd most significant defender region" perch


Founderless population or Onder's blood pressure?

Regions infiltrated, invaded, destroyed, and re-founded as a glorious trophy of our might: one; Regions defended: not sure

On January 12th, Founderless welcomed new nation Gorlend to the region. Pretty soon after, we realised we shouldn't have. After a short period of hyperactivity, he declared war on Falconias (which to be fair, we can understand), then left to found his own region World Authoritarian Nations dedicated to our destruction. Well we couldn't let a slight like that stand, so we activated our crack intel agents, who used years of experience in the field to infiltrate the region deep undercover as Dnelrog, Saipotgnimmel and more.

Utilising all their cunning, within minutes our agents had risen quickly to key Regional Officer positions - and we might have left it at that. Except Gorlend then started flying a Nazi-esque swastika, so at update he and the rest of his puppets were booted, and the region World Authoritarian Nations refounded as the first outpost of the glorious Founderless Empire (next up: The New Inquisition - we keep teasing it, you'll see it happen some day. If we keep this up they may even declare war on us!).

We did actually defend some places

The Rangers have been hyperactive at update, with a steady presence on chasing and detagging ops. The standout op was the liberation of The New Commonwealth Society, for which our Foreign Affairs Director Velvet Elvis/Witchcraft and Sorcery was trigger. He's also been running around 50 detags per update, putting our new recruits through their paces so we actually have something to back up the smack talk.

Elections Incoming

Founderless has elections - sorry, a "Members General Meeting" (thanks for that enthralling name, Falc) coming up in February - our first proper set of elections, which will choose the new Board of Directors. Five positions (Executive Director, Foreign Affairs Director, Recruiting Director, Communications Director, and Social Director) are up for grabs (Defence Director and Intelligence Director are apppointed by the Executive Director) and we've already had several regional members express interest in running for positions.

The current term has been a success so far, with Falconias' term as Recruiting Director probably the standout. Yes, I said something nice about him. FRAME IT AND PUT IT ON YOUR WALL, FALCY BOY!

Minor Stuff:

• Our Intelligence Director Numero Capitan has gone so deep undercover, we haven't seen him for months.
• We sent out this telegram to residents of NationStates. If you aren't aware of the situation, get out from under that rock and scroll back a couple of pages.
• In a disgusting abuse of power, Falconias has moved the Voice Chat to the top of the Discord server's channel list, clearly demonstrating to all his unsuitability to holding any position of responsibility.
• We were going to theme this update around RiderSyl's "Fun Removed Alliance" comment from last month, but we didn't have time between hosting mandatory moralising classes for new novitiates and memorising all 72 verses of Klopstock's Ode to the Rangers.

[Fauxia]

Congratulations on another successful raid! Founderless continues to be the most effective raider region on NationStates.

[Velvet Elvis]

Falconias did something good???????

Another fabulous update, Sedge.

I was notably the only "infiltrator" of World Authoritarian nations that was not appointed as an RO. Probably because I was far too concerned about increasing my authoritarianism...

Unfortunately I was going to link individual posts, but in my haste I forgot that when regions CTE, so too does the RMB. And then I forgot that i just linked the view=self activity feed. Great job, me.