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PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
263
38%
Eastern Orthodox
47
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
35
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
71
10%
Methodist
16
2%
Baptist
66
9%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
62
9%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
32
5%
Other Christian
97
14%
 
Total votes : 695

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Kowani
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Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:51 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:It's only tangentially related, but your post reminded me of this article from the Eastern Orthodox journalist Rod Dreher (probably best known for his book "The Benedict Option") about the Christian Right's pro-Trump "Jericho March." It's an interesting and deeply concerning insight into the politicisation of American Christianity. The reason the above post brought it to mind was the part of the rally where a Catholic priest appears on stage and addresses prayers to Mary and the saints; Dreher makes the point that if he believed the things that Evangelical Christians assert that they believe, this would trouble him deeply. It seems that devotion to the political cause of Trumpism overrides any deep-seated theological divisions for these people, a kind of ecumenism that I find more concerning that encouraging.


Ahh, that guy is Eastern Orthodox? Kind of surprising, considering how many Trad Caths are big fans of the "Benedict Option".

Yes, well, considering there are Evangelicals making explicitly religious art involving Trump I think it's pretty obvious that he's having a terrible effect on Christianity.

Example 1 Example 2 Example 3

While I can't speak to the theology at hand, because I know like none of it, it's clear that Trump tapped into a deeper emotional wellspring that was-while existent in large demographics of America-was particularly present in evangelicals (I suspect the demographic and cultural environments that tend to constitute much of the evangelical experience are partially culpable there), but I would charge that the culture of American-Protestant in general and Evangelical in particular-Christianity to emphasize the idea of the cultural place of Christianity being under attack or siege made it even more vulnerable to Trumpism than, say, other Christian traditions. Trump set himself up as an active participant in the culture wars-and a large part of the subtext of those wars is about the place and emphasis of Christianity in American society. That's not to say that one side is all "godless commies" and the other is "good, humble god-fearing Americans." But rather, to see the two camps (another oversimplification) as two warring narratives of what constitutes America, what is to be aspired to and admired, what is to be shunned and rejected, etc.

And I think there was a genuine cultural resentment (to say nothing of economic, which is far beyond the scope of what I want to talk about) or a sense of fear on the part of Evangelicals and Protestants-typically, though not necessarily white, because there is an overlap here-that they and their contributions to what America is, that they were being written out of the story-or cast as the villains. Spend some time in those spaces, and you hear a lot of the same rhetoric-"they hate us", they hate our values, they hate our way of life, they hate our freedom. And some of that feeling is justified. Liberal condescension towards these groups is a very real thing-though there is also a degree of manufactured rage, which we'll get to in a minute. But it's why the butt of the incest jokes is always Alabama, why the depiction of the racist is almost always a southerner (and typically overweight, too), why every pedophile joke is about priests. And mind you, I've engaged in some of this myself-I don't mean to remove myself as an agent. But it's personally and societally toxic. And this is amplified by the way rural areas are depicted in the media (with the exception of Hallmark movies). Hell, Hillbilly Elegy (Which I personally think is trash) was written by someone from one of those areas (Appalachia), and yet the largest viewers of it as a mass media production were not the people whose lives it was describing. But HE is a very good example of what I mean, because the portrayal-leaving aside the economics-of Appalachia is almost uniformly negative.

And then we combine the first element-a rich spiritual tradition directing much of its energy to the culture war, the very real liberal disdain towards certain people's cultural upbringing and values- and then we throw in a media apparatus, aimed towards the first group, to tell them that the "other" group is in a state of hatred and war or whatever the buzzword of the day is. Fox News, the New York Post, Glenn Beck, the Washington Examiner, Gavin McInnes (and note here that McInnes is far worse than the others, being an open white nationalist, but the observation is that they inhabit the same media ecospace), etc. Now, some of these people- are just on it for profit, some of them do genuinely believe their content, some of them don't seem to know what they believe. But they all offer variations on the same basic theme-your culture and way of life is under attack by some other group. And they all market towards-more or less-the same cultural and economic group. And one of their key insights was to keep their viewers in a constant state of rage and fear. It's why "they hate" appears so much on Fox News. It's psychological, after all-angry and fearful people are much less likely to be thinking critically, they're less likely to challenge the group.

And now, you have the perfect recipe for Trump-and the sheer strength of the emotional connection towards him.

There are many, many more factors that I didn't address here. The economic status of Trump's greatest fans, race as an indicator of "Americanness", education (and it's association with secularism), age, but I wanted to focus on religion, and this is already long enough.

One last thing: If you're observant, you'll notice that I interchanged "religious" "evangelical" "protestant" and "rural" as I went on-though not "white". And part of that is just demographic overlap. But here, it's because while those groups are not identical, they tend to share in the same cultural narrative about what America is and should be that I mentioned at the beginning. What that narrative is isn't something I can actually articulate-firstly, because I am not part of that cultural tradition and so have a skewed perception of it, but also because it's not a narrative told so much as felt.
Last edited by Kowani on Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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San Kalungsod Saludong
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Ex-Nation

Postby San Kalungsod Saludong » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:55 am

I'm redicovering the Neoplatonism in the Gospel of Saint John, I love how that Gospel is so intelligent. I think mathemathics is an example of a purely spiritual-intellectual manifestation of divinity, since infinities are never possible for us in fallen creation, yet in math, we can, through logic, which is completely intellectual and spiritual, abstract and analyze the different values and qualities of various infinities and infinitesmals. The logic of mathemathics which often has a beauty and symmetry not present in our finite physical world, are one of the greatest arguments for the prescence of God. Math is so ordered, beautiful and logical yet it goes over and beyond our world, we can only see in 3 Dimensions yet String Theory says the Universe has 10. We are able to measure the other dimensions purely by the logic in math, but we can't perceive the other 7 dimensions. There are things beyond which are real but not perceivable.
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:16 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:It's only tangentially related, but your post reminded me of this article from the Eastern Orthodox journalist Rod Dreher (probably best known for his book "The Benedict Option") about the Christian Right's pro-Trump "Jericho March." It's an interesting and deeply concerning insight into the politicisation of American Christianity. The reason the above post brought it to mind was the part of the rally where a Catholic priest appears on stage and addresses prayers to Mary and the saints; Dreher makes the point that if he believed the things that Evangelical Christians assert that they believe, this would trouble him deeply. It seems that devotion to the political cause of Trumpism overrides any deep-seated theological divisions for these people, a kind of ecumenism that I find more concerning that encouraging.


Ahh, that guy is Eastern Orthodox? Kind of surprising, considering how many Trad Caths are big fans of the "Benedict Option".

Yes, well, considering there are Evangelicals making explicitly religious art involving Trump I think it's pretty obvious that he's having a terrible effect on Christianity.


A couple of points here...

1) Dreher is a former Catholic, so it's not really that surprising that he knows how to speak (or write) in a theological language that Catholics understand when he's writing a book for a cross-denominational audience.

2) Dreher may be a self-proclaimed conservative, but one of his key points - other than the damage that Evangelicals and a small number of conservative Catholic allies are doing to Christianity in the United States - entails the similarities between the 'apocalyptic secular millenarian cult' of Marxism and the 'irrational radicalism' of the Trump-supporting American right.

Quoting from the article in OT's link:

[in a previous book] I talk about Hannah Arendt’s criteria for discerning a pre-totalitarian society. In the essay, and in the book, I talk about how these criteria explain the woke Left, and why educated elites throughout politics, media, academia, and corporations, have absorbed their dogmas. But read the piece in light of what I’ve written above, especially about how alienated people are willing to believe ideology over truth, and how they are willing to smash any institutions for the sake of seeing their idea of justice triumph.

This is where the woke Left is. But this is also where a lot of the Trumpist Right — in particular, the Trumpist Christian Right — is. Remember, General Flynn, the central figure of today’s rally, recently endorsed a call for Donald Trump to declare martial law and arrest his political enemies. He was nevertheless at the center of today’s Christian event, along with the insanely malicious blowhard Alex Jones. What does this say about Christianity today? What does it say about what Christians like this think of truth? Of common decency?


There's perhaps an argument that it's easier for an American Orthodox Christian to keep a certain level of intellectual distance from the excess of both the American Left and the American Right, just as an Orthodox Christian won't easily fit into the traditional Catholic-Protestant dichotomy that underlies so many Western assumptions about Christianity; that and Orthodox Christians simply aren't as demographically important in Western Christianity. It could also be that I'm overthinking this, and Dreher's position on these issues doesn't represent anyone other than Rod Dreher.

That said, while I would not use the same terminology as Dreher in describing what he characterises as the 'woke Left', I do think that he has more than half a point in noting that groups on both the political left and the political right have had a tendency to develop cult-like aspects recently. It's just one example, but elsewhere in NSG, I've previously compared British support for Jeremy Corbyn with American support for Donald Trump; to me they seem to be two sides of the same coin in their cult-like devotion to a deeply flawed leader. And one area where I do strongly agree with Dreher is that close association with a specific political viewpoint is actively damaging to Christianity, and has particular potential for damage in the United States. The mobius-strip hypocrisy of the Conservative Movement political Evangelical Right is entirely destructive, and I would always caution my small-c conservative Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters in the United States against being drawn into their orbit.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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San Kalungsod Saludong
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Ex-Nation

Postby San Kalungsod Saludong » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:54 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Ahh, that guy is Eastern Orthodox? Kind of surprising, considering how many Trad Caths are big fans of the "Benedict Option".

Yes, well, considering there are Evangelicals making explicitly religious art involving Trump I think it's pretty obvious that he's having a terrible effect on Christianity.


A couple of points here...

1) Dreher is a former Catholic, so it's not really that surprising that he knows how to speak (or write) in a theological language that Catholics understand when he's writing a book for a cross-denominational audience.

2) Dreher may be a self-proclaimed conservative, but one of his key points - other than the damage that Evangelicals and a small number of conservative Catholic allies are doing to Christianity in the United States - entails the similarities between the 'apocalyptic secular millenarian cult' of Marxism and the 'irrational radicalism' of the Trump-supporting American right.

Quoting from the article in OT's link:

[in a previous book] I talk about Hannah Arendt’s criteria for discerning a pre-totalitarian society. In the essay, and in the book, I talk about how these criteria explain the woke Left, and why educated elites throughout politics, media, academia, and corporations, have absorbed their dogmas. But read the piece in light of what I’ve written above, especially about how alienated people are willing to believe ideology over truth, and how they are willing to smash any institutions for the sake of seeing their idea of justice triumph.

This is where the woke Left is. But this is also where a lot of the Trumpist Right — in particular, the Trumpist Christian Right — is. Remember, General Flynn, the central figure of today’s rally, recently endorsed a call for Donald Trump to declare martial law and arrest his political enemies. He was nevertheless at the center of today’s Christian event, along with the insanely malicious blowhard Alex Jones. What does this say about Christianity today? What does it say about what Christians like this think of truth? Of common decency?


There's perhaps an argument that it's easier for an American Orthodox Christian to keep a certain level of intellectual distance from the excess of both the American Left and the American Right, just as an Orthodox Christian won't easily fit into the traditional Catholic-Protestant dichotomy that underlies so many Western assumptions about Christianity; that and Orthodox Christians simply aren't as demographically important in Western Christianity. It could also be that I'm overthinking this, and Dreher's position on these issues doesn't represent anyone other than Rod Dreher.

That said, while I would not use the same terminology as Dreher in describing what he characterises as the 'woke Left', I do think that he has more than half a point in noting that groups on both the political left and the political right have had a tendency to develop cult-like aspects recently. It's just one example, but elsewhere in NSG, I've previously compared British support for Jeremy Corbyn with American support for Donald Trump; to me they seem to be two sides of the same coin in their cult-like devotion to a deeply flawed leader. And one area where I do strongly agree with Dreher is that close association with a specific political viewpoint is actively damaging to Christianity, and has particular potential for damage in the United States. The mobius-strip hypocrisy of the Conservative Movement political Evangelical Right is entirely destructive, and I would always caution my small-c conservative Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters in the United States against being drawn into their orbit.


There's a political theory called "Escalation" were both right and left wings, work to polarize people from the center by radicalizing each other, thus putting more people into their extrimist camp since "Look what the other wing is doing" thing.
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Bienenhalde
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:03 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:It's only tangentially related, but your post reminded me of this article from the Eastern Orthodox journalist Rod Dreher (probably best known for his book "The Benedict Option") about the Christian Right's pro-Trump "Jericho March." It's an interesting and deeply concerning insight into the politicisation of American Christianity. The reason the above post brought it to mind was the part of the rally where a Catholic priest appears on stage and addresses prayers to Mary and the saints; Dreher makes the point that if he believed the things that Evangelical Christians assert that they believe, this would trouble him deeply. It seems that devotion to the political cause of Trumpism overrides any deep-seated theological divisions for these people, a kind of ecumenism that I find more concerning that encouraging.


Ahh, that guy is Eastern Orthodox? Kind of surprising, considering how many Trad Caths are big fans of the "Benedict Option".

Yes, well, considering there are Evangelicals making explicitly religious art involving Trump I think it's pretty obvious that he's having a terrible effect on Christianity.

Example 1 Example 2 Example 3

I don't see any obvious Christian references in the first two paintings, but the third one definately seems rather sacrilegous.

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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:10 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
A couple of points here...

1) Dreher is a former Catholic, so it's not really that surprising that he knows how to speak (or write) in a theological language that Catholics understand when he's writing a book for a cross-denominational audience.

2) Dreher may be a self-proclaimed conservative, but one of his key points - other than the damage that Evangelicals and a small number of conservative Catholic allies are doing to Christianity in the United States - entails the similarities between the 'apocalyptic secular millenarian cult' of Marxism and the 'irrational radicalism' of the Trump-supporting American right.

Quoting from the article in OT's link:



There's perhaps an argument that it's easier for an American Orthodox Christian to keep a certain level of intellectual distance from the excess of both the American Left and the American Right, just as an Orthodox Christian won't easily fit into the traditional Catholic-Protestant dichotomy that underlies so many Western assumptions about Christianity; that and Orthodox Christians simply aren't as demographically important in Western Christianity. It could also be that I'm overthinking this, and Dreher's position on these issues doesn't represent anyone other than Rod Dreher.

That said, while I would not use the same terminology as Dreher in describing what he characterises as the 'woke Left', I do think that he has more than half a point in noting that groups on both the political left and the political right have had a tendency to develop cult-like aspects recently. It's just one example, but elsewhere in NSG, I've previously compared British support for Jeremy Corbyn with American support for Donald Trump; to me they seem to be two sides of the same coin in their cult-like devotion to a deeply flawed leader. And one area where I do strongly agree with Dreher is that close association with a specific political viewpoint is actively damaging to Christianity, and has particular potential for damage in the United States. The mobius-strip hypocrisy of the Conservative Movement political Evangelical Right is entirely destructive, and I would always caution my small-c conservative Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters in the United States against being drawn into their orbit.


There's a political theory called "Escalation" were both right and left wings, work to polarize people from the center by radicalizing each other, thus putting more people into their extrimist camp since "Look what the other wing is doing" thing.


Perhaps.

But then I've spent much of my life rejecting black and white pseudo-Manichaean dichotomies.

Actual Manichaeism is, after all, anathema to Christianity; regardless of how much of the late 4th-century equivalent of Flavor-Aid St Augustine of Hippo might have been imbibing in his youth.

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Maineiacs
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:26 am

Bienenhalde wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Ahh, that guy is Eastern Orthodox? Kind of surprising, considering how many Trad Caths are big fans of the "Benedict Option".

Yes, well, considering there are Evangelicals making explicitly religious art involving Trump I think it's pretty obvious that he's having a terrible effect on Christianity.

Example 1 Example 2 Example 3

I don't see any obvious Christian references in the first two paintings, but the third one definately seems rather sacrilegous.



The first one, with Trump treading on the head of a snake, is deeply sacrilegious.
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Tarsonis
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:29 am

Maineiacs wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:I don't see any obvious Christian references in the first two paintings, but the third one definately seems rather sacrilegous.



The first one, with Trump treading on the head of a snake, is deeply sacrilegious.


Not if they believe it, then it's just heresy and idolatry.
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:32 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

The first one, with Trump treading on the head of a snake, is deeply sacrilegious.


Not if they believe it, then it's just heresy and idolatry.

Indeed, the man is about as Christian as Emperor Nero.
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Bienenhalde
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Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Bienenhalde » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:37 am

Maineiacs wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:I don't see any obvious Christian references in the first two paintings, but the third one definately seems rather sacrilegous.



The first one, with Trump treading on the head of a snake, is deeply sacrilegious.


Ah, is that a reference to the Virgin Mary treading on the serpent's head in Revelation?

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Luminesa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:40 am

To add onto what Arch mentioned about warning Catholics and Orthodox against conspiracies and against some of the more toxic political worship we've experienced this year, there are websites and figures within the Catholic community who HAVE bought into a fair bit of the Evangelical hyper-conspiracy machine. LifeSiteNews, something I trusted in the past to at least link honest articles and studies on pro-life issues, is now pushing severe misinformation against wearing masks and against the COVID vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna. Let me make clear that the USCCB recently gave these two vaccines the go-ahead, as they do not contain aborted fetal cells (though aborted cells were used during testing). LifeSiteNews, Abby Johnson, and several other well-known American (and Canadian) Catholic voices are running misinformation saying that Pfizer contains aborted fetal cells, and is warning people against taking it. If you are Catholic (or Orthodox-I imagine the OCA has probably given them the okay as well), PLEASE do not listen to figures who have fallen for conspiracies and who are pushing political ideologies under the guise of defending Christian doctrine.

https://www.usccb.org/news/2020/us-bish ... 9-vaccines

I was reminded of such conflicts as I sat in Adoration on Wednesday, and I was reminded of these lines from the hymn Ubi Caritas, which is used traditionally during the Holy Thursday sequence. Translated into English:

Where charity and love are, there God is.
Therefore, whensoever we are gathered as one:
Lest we in mind be divided, let us beware.
Let cease malicious quarrels, let strife give way.
And in the midst of us be Christ our God.


Please do not give an ear to the people pushing conspiracies, division, and anger among the Christian faithful. Voices have been saying that the USCCB has "given into Big Pharma" or that they have blood on their hands. Individuals are saying Pope Francis is "the worst pope" for pushing for people to take care of each other. These people are on YouTube and the news, all over the place, pushing people to abandon true Christian virtue. Whether you lean left or right, strive to continue taking care of your neighbor and please get the shot when you can.

This probably belongs in the COVID thread, but because it pertains to a dangerous rot within Christian communities, I figured I would mention it specifically here. This is something that has been on my heart, as someone who even messaged LifeSiteNews personally to tell them to stop spreading misinformation about masks. There are Christians among you who call themselves Goliath and wear a David mask. Pray to God, discern properly, and remember the Beatitudes. Blessed are the peacemakers, for THEY shall see God.
Last edited by Luminesa on Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundiata
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Ex-Nation

Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:44 am

Esheaun Stroakuss wrote:
Sundiata wrote:It certainly is a powerful institution, my understanding distinguishes between church and state. It does not lend itself to the complete separation. The role of the state is to enforce morality but it ultimately is not it's foundation. That is a role strictly for the church. The secular vision, the liberal ideal is not something I share.

What sort of moral basis do you want if not God? Most moral systems do fall apart. The exception to me are those based upon natural law.

I don't think that egregious moral compromise is necessarily the case for everyone but it is for many people. I also don't think that this is the case in every country. It's hard to only account for practicality alone and not morality. Virtuousness is truly a privilege in some cases.


First of all, thank you for taking the time to respond civilly to this. More often than not, whenever I share this viewpoint, it is met with some melodrama.

I have quite a bit to say to this, and will take time. Consider this post a placemarker.

Of course. Drama is not my thing, I don't care for personal attacks or anything like that. We can disagree without personally attacking each other. Unfortunately though, not everyone has that same attitude.

If anyone gives you drama here, you're better off just blocking or ignoring them. Also, some people are a lot more sensitive than others, practically looking to be offended and cause controversy. With people like that, I've learned it's better to just let them cool down. Not everyone's going to like you, understand you, or understand your attitudes with respect to politics and faith. But anyway, thank you for the kind words. I likewise expect a civil exchange.

God love you. Peace be with you.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:15 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:The Bible tells us to 'put away evil from among you' by inflicting the death penalty upon people who commit the most heinous crimes - murder, adultery, incest, paedophilia, criminal insanity and certain unnatural sexual acts.
People who commit the most heinous of crimes against humanity are depraved, and can't be saved. They haven't the Holy Spirit working in them. They are the worst of reprobates.They're outside of God's grace, and must be killed judicially to spare the rest of society their corrupting influence. An evil person is never happy, and death is a release from the suffering which they inflict upon themselves. What is kinder than that? If you spare the reprobate criminal's life, you are, in effect, guaranteeing the destruction of future victims of his depravity.
If they were in God's grace, they would either be intimidated by the rule of law sufficiently to refrain from temptation to do these unholy acts or, having the Holy Spirit working in them, would be regenerated from that natural depravity whence springs all Evil.

This is just awful theology. Calvinism truly is Satanic.

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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:17 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Turelisa- wrote:
Snakes are not welcome in this thread, nor is the poison that they pour into the ears of those who will listen tolerated.


And yet, here you are.

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New Visayan Islands
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:18 am

Bienenhalde wrote:
Maineiacs wrote:

The first one, with Trump treading on the head of a snake, is deeply sacrilegious.


Ah, is that a reference to the Virgin Mary treading on the serpent's head in Revelation?

Does look like it, hence my remark that Trump was channeling Our Lady of Guadalupe.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:20 am

San Kalungsod Saludong wrote:I personally like King David, after he crushed Goliath he had Philistine allies in his civil war against King Saul. And the Philistines were descendants of Greeks and his open-mindedness to other nations is a pre-shadowing of Christianity's cosmpolitanism.

1 Samuel 27

27 Then David said to [a]himself, “Now I will [b]perish one day by the hand of Saul. There is nothing better for me than to safely escape into the land of the Philistines. Then Saul will despair of searching for me anymore in all the territory of Israel, and I will escape from his hand.” 2 So David set out and went over, he and the six hundred men who were with him, to Achish the son of Maoch, king of Gath. 3 And David lived with Achish in Gath, he and his men, each with his own household—David with his two wives, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail the Carmelitess, Nabal’s [c]widow. 4 Now it was reported to Saul that David had fled to Gath, so he no longer searched for him.

5 Then David said to Achish, “If now I have found favor in your sight, have them give me a place in one of the cities in the country, so that I may live there; for why should your servant live in the royal city with you?” 6 So Achish gave him Ziklag that day; therefore Ziklag has belonged to the kings of Judah to this day. 7 The number of days that David lived in the country of the Philistines was a year and four months.
I'm glad that someone said it. Even after crushing their most prized warrior, the Philistines were still willing to support him in civil war. He was a fine example of virtue then. And yes, the cosmopolitan aspect to Christianity is a feature of why it is so enduring. You're right that we see traces of this with respect to David's life and attitudes towards people of different cultures and ethnic backgrounds, as David preceded Christ in terms of bloodline.

I think that the best example of this attitude in Christ is when he meets the Woman at the Well or speaks on the Good Samaritan. With respect to the Woman at the Well, she was from a different ethnic group with a history of conflict with members of Christ's ethnic group. Christ still embraced her in her pain. He didn't say that life is without squabbles but didn't ever justify them on ethnic grounds. That's also not something I ever saw from King David in his literal wars for Israel.

His pro-Philistinism also pressaged the wonderful melding of Greek Philosophy with Jewish thought in the Gospel of Saint John, where Christ was called by Saint John as the Logos, which was then a more scientific term for the Monad of Greek Philosophy, as the entire Classical World were beggining to doubt the existence of the Mythological Gods (Aphrodite, Osiris and etc.) and coming to a Scientific and Philosophical understanding of God.

The incarnation of God as Christ the Logos, and his word spreading to the Roman Empire, is definitely a case of a true event, since it also simultaneously occured with the dis-establishment of mythological false gods, that was going on in the Hellenestic Philosophical circles that was full of open debate and intellectual rivalry.

Yes, Jesus really did turn the Western understanding of God and Gods upon its head. Prior to him, the Gods were often stated to embody nature or specific concepts. But no, Jesus says that nature works for him. Jesus says, he trancends nature. Jesus says, he is the Logos, he is the thing through which all things are made.

This is the same incarnate word who was born in a manger, no crib for his bed, who rode into jerusalem on a donkey. It's no accident that he was born amongst the poor. It's no accident that he loved the worst sinners. It's no accident that he was born to such an amazing mother.

That's the essence of understanding Christianity, to learn how the underlying force behind all things ultimately culminates into the little lamb which Mary had.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:28 am

How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:32 am

Sundiata wrote:How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.

I think we should just dump all non latin hymns and songs the RCC to be honest, most are so OLD I have no idea what the words even mean.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:38 am

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:How did "I am who I am" culminate into "a little lamb?" That's question is the essence of contextualizing holy scripture.

I think we should just dump all non latin hymns and songs the RCC to be honest, most are so OLD I have no idea what the words even mean.

No, no, no. In the words of St Paul, "I have become all things to all people so that I might same some." Translating church services to English and other languages keeps them accessible to all people. We don't want to exclude anyone but we also don't want to change our fundamental character.

The church must remain all things to all people. The essence of Vatican II.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:40 am

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:I think we should just dump all non latin hymns and songs the RCC to be honest, most are so OLD I have no idea what the words even mean.

No, no, no. In the words of St Paul, "I have become all things to all people so that I might same some." Translating church services to English and other languages keeps them accessible to all people. We don't want to exclude anyone but we also don't want to change our fundamental character. The essence of Vatican II.

The church must remain all things to all people.

Not if the words are so old nobody knows what they mean, and its a Holy Sacrament , not a folk festival thank you very much

Plus that was changed AFTER vatican II, in 1969, not during.
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:43 am

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:No, no, no. In the words of St Paul, "I have become all things to all people so that I might same some." Translating church services to English and other languages keeps them accessible to all people. We don't want to exclude anyone but we also don't want to change our fundamental character. The essence of Vatican II.

The church must remain all things to all people.

Not if the words are so old nobody knows what they mean, and its a Holy Sacrament , not a folk festival thank you very much

Plus that was changed AFTER vatican II, in 1969, not during.

Yes, but the change was applied in the spirit of or principle of Vatican II if that makes sense.
Last edited by Sundiata on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:44 am

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Not if the words are so old nobody knows what they mean, and its a Holy Sacrament , not a folk festival thank you very much

Plus that was changed AFTER vatican II, in 1969, not during.

Yes, but the change was applied in the spirit of or principle of Vatican II if that makes sense.

No, John XXIII wanted to keep the latin, as seen in Veterum Sapientia, maybe Paul VI, but not John XXIII.

And I really just hate singing, I REALLY do.
Last edited by Rosmana on Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:48 am

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Yes, but the change was applied in the spirit of or principle of Vatican II if that makes sense.

No, John XXIII wanted to keep the latin, as seen in Veterum Sapientia, maybe Paul VI, but not John XXIII.

And I really just hate singing, I REALLY do.

:lol:

I was never find of song myself. John Paul II had the right idea, I think. The limited use of latin is a fitting compromise.
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:51 am

Sundiata wrote:
Rosmana wrote:No, John XXIII wanted to keep the latin, as seen in Veterum Sapientia, maybe Paul VI, but not John XXIII.

And I really just hate singing, I REALLY do.

:lol:

I was never find of song myself. John Paul II had the right idea, I think. The limited use of latin is a fitting compromise.

Ok, sorry but I disagree, but I was never a John Paul II fan, sorry but he never seemed that, well, Papal in my opinion.
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:01 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Sundiata wrote: :lol:

I was never find of song myself. John Paul II had the right idea, I think. The limited use of latin is a fitting compromise.

Ok, sorry but I disagree, but I was never a John Paul II fan, sorry but he never seemed that, well, Papal in my opinion.


Why? I don't understand.

Even after being shot, he prayed with and for his assassin. He canonized Escriva. He went to parts of the world where no Pope has before. He wrote the Theology of the Body. He greatly supported St. Mother Theresa. He did so much legwork so that we don't have to today.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
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