The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Kowani]

Okay, cool

It's still absolutely ridiculous, though. Anti-vaxxers are a threat to public safety.

Well, yes

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

I debated which thread to post this. I chose this one.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... e-1099020/

Why Are Fewer Women Than Men Planning to Get a Covid-19 Vaccine?

Though women are more likely to wear protective gear like masks, two new studies show they’re more skeptical of a vaccine — and conspiracy theories may be to blame

With multiple promising candidates for COVID-19 vaccines inching closer to becoming a reality, much of the world is looking forward to a near-ish future marked by safe indoor family gatherings, live music, and drunken karaoke nights. But public health researchers are still concerned that some Americans, in their unwillingness to get vaccinated, will possibly endanger the rest of the public — and this fear is justified, according to two studies released this week.

A National Geographic survey of 2,201 Americans found that 69 percent of men said they would take a COVID-19 vaccine, as opposed to 51 percent of women; indeed, nearly one-quarter of women in the survey said they would “definitely not” take a vaccine. Such results squared with the results of a Pew survey released on Thursday, which similarly found that 45 percent of women would “probably not” or “definitely not” take a vaccine, as opposed to 33 percent of men.

The studies didn’t further specify the demographic breakdown of those who would refuse the vaccine, but the Pew research in particular paints a slightly fuller picture. Overall, the study authors found, “personal concern about getting a serious case of COVID-19 is lower among white adults than those in other racial and ethnic groups,” and it is also lower among middle- and upper-class adults than lower-income people.

At first glance, the skew towards women refusing the vaccine is somewhat surprising, given that previous data has shown that women are more likely to engage in many anti-COVID-19 prophylactic measures, such as wearing a mask, than men. But as disinformation reporter Ben Collins pointed out on Twitter, the gender gap aligns with the general explosion of anti-vaccine sentiment on social media, a community that has historically been largely driven by well-off white women.

Due in part to the explosive popularity of the anti-vaccine film Plandemic on Facebook, as well as the general proliferation of the QAnon-driven, anti-child trafficking #SaveTheChildren movement, women are becoming increasingly radicalized in online spaces.

This is particularly true with mothers, conspiracy theory researcher Mike Rothschild, the author of the book The World’s Worst Conspiracies, previously told Rolling Stone. “A lot of moms are freaked out about what might happen with their kids, and their kids not doing so great with the pandemic. They’re too worried, too online, and have a lot of time on their hands.” Such conspiracy theories have increasingly started infiltrating larger, also female-driven communities, such as the yoga and wellness spaces on Instagram.

Researchers are also witnessing the blending together of many online-based conspiracy theories, which writer Anna Merlan has referred to as “the conspiracy singularity.” This has brought many women further down the rabbit holes of previously disparate conspiracy theories, such as QAnon and the anti-vaccine movement, that have increasingly started to converge.

“Once these communities converge, there’s increasingly cross-pollination,” Zarine Khazarian, assistant research editor at the Digital Forensic Lab, previously told Rolling Stone. “It’s been thought of as this fringe conspiracy theory that only people super into 8chan and are sort of internet-savvy adhere to, but really it has a much broader appeal and that is sort of the danger of it — it can be something thats very attractive to a suburban soccer mom.”

TL;DR is, women are less likely to want the vaccine and more likely to be opposed to getting it all together. This is the reverse of the willingness to use PPE. They posit that because women have more free time (men work more hours) based on their sex, they’re more likely to spend that time heading down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

This matches anti-vaccination trends in general, btw.

I would like to posit the PPE issue is for a similar reason. Men spend more time working and tend to find the PPE getting in the way, and don’t want to deal with it. The vaccine represents ease of their work, the PPE is a pain in the ass. Women on the other hand don’t have to wear it near as long (on average) or in as physically difficult of work (again, on average), and therefore don’t find it as intrusive as men do.

Thoughts?

personally, I haven't found ppe to get in the way much, except for when my mask fogs up my glasses, but that doesn't really happen much when it's warm inside. as for the vaccine, when it comes out and is proven safe, I'll get it if it's financially feasible for me, which it probably won't be. I'm not at high-risk, so others need it more than I do.

going back to gender, most anti-vax stuff i see/hear about is from women, so nothing unexpected here. you'd think a pandemic would convince people to care about their safety and the safety of others, but some people would rather have dead children than children they think have an increased chance of being autistic. and would rather take their chances with covid than a covid-vaccine. relating to ppe, I can see a face shield being a hindrance, but the person could always wear a mask instead.

[Auzkhia]

Ugh, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist housewives. My sworn enemies.

They are living proof that "popular with women" is not the same thing as "pro-woman."

Childcare gets foisted on most women, and it all takes is one trusted mommy blogger for them to renounce and recant contemporary medical science.

Believe women, unless when we're wrong.

[Galloism]

I debated which thread to post this. I chose this one.

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/cu ... e-1099020/

TL;DR is, women are less likely to want the vaccine and more likely to be opposed to getting it all together. This is the reverse of the willingness to use PPE. They posit that because women have more free time (men work more hours) based on their sex, they’re more likely to spend that time heading down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

This matches anti-vaccination trends in general, btw.

I would like to posit the PPE issue is for a similar reason. Men spend more time working and tend to find the PPE getting in the way, and don’t want to deal with it. The vaccine represents ease of their work, the PPE is a pain in the ass. Women on the other hand don’t have to wear it near as long (on average) or in as physically difficult of work (again, on average), and therefore don’t find it as intrusive as men do.

Thoughts?

personally, I haven't found ppe to get in the way much, except for when my mask fogs up my glasses, but that doesn't really happen much when it's warm inside. as for the vaccine, when it comes out and is proven safe, I'll get it if it's financially feasible for me, which it probably won't be. I'm not at high-risk, so others need it more than I do.

going back to gender, most anti-vax stuff i see/hear about is from women, so nothing unexpected here. you'd think a pandemic would convince people to care about their safety and the safety of others, but some people would rather have dead children than children they think have an increased chance of being autistic. and would rather take their chances with covid than a covid-vaccine. relating to ppe, I can see a face shield being a hindrance, but the person could always wear a mask instead.

Just so you know, if you’re in the US, Uncle Sam is picking up 100% of the cost of the vaccine.

I find the Ppe to be a pain in the ass personally. A necessary pain in the ass right now, but still a pain in the ass.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

personally, I haven't found ppe to get in the way much, except for when my mask fogs up my glasses, but that doesn't really happen much when it's warm inside. as for the vaccine, when it comes out and is proven safe, I'll get it if it's financially feasible for me, which it probably won't be. I'm not at high-risk, so others need it more than I do.

going back to gender, most anti-vax stuff i see/hear about is from women, so nothing unexpected here. you'd think a pandemic would convince people to care about their safety and the safety of others, but some people would rather have dead children than children they think have an increased chance of being autistic. and would rather take their chances with covid than a covid-vaccine. relating to ppe, I can see a face shield being a hindrance, but the person could always wear a mask instead.

Just so you know, if you’re in the US, Uncle Sam is picking up 100% of the cost of the vaccine.

I find the Ppe to be a pain in the ass personally. A necessary pain in the ass right now, but still a pain in the ass.

*grabs vaccine with my greedy american hands* sounds kinda socialist if you ask me, checkmate conservatives

[Giovenith]

Ugh, anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist housewives. My sworn enemies.

They are living proof that "popular with women" is not the same thing as "pro-woman."

Childcare gets foisted on most women, and it all takes is one trusted mommy blogger for them to renounce and recant contemporary medical science.

Believe women, unless when we're wrong.

Mommy bloggers are responsible for a lot more damage in life than we give them credit for. As someone interested in abuse and social welfare, I'm constantly hearing stories of some housewife getting in trouble for engaging in some neglectful, abusive, or otherwise nasty behavior because it was suggested to her by a mommy blog.

I have a lot of problems in general with the way pseudoscience, mysticism, marketing scams, and other various woo tend to be primarily targeted at women. It is something of a symptom of women's exclusion from prominent areas of like such as science, medicine, and business, but the response to this is not to cede those spheres to men and try to create our own "alternate" spheres. No Karen, your essential oils and pyramid scheme are not an empowering alternative to real medicine and real business — build your house on the rocks, not the sand, women will always fail if we invest ourselves in inherently faulty enterprises.

It really shows how treating women well has larger effects on society as a whole. Women are excluded from medicine, women become anti-vaxxers, now measles are back. The lesson: Stop excluding 50% of the population from medicine. Etc. Obviously there are more factors that go into it, such as the United States' shitty healthcare, but that is one prominent aspect of it.

There's some good videos on this subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qDsso1-vyA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJemSXXTOxo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBwLfQj_sZU

Dr. Jennifer Gunter is a great resource on pseudomedicine targeting women in general (I own her nice book "The Vagina Bible" — not to be confused with the much less nice book, "The Vagina Monologues"). Obvious content warning in that they're all discussing sex and women's reproductive organs, but it's all from a purely medical perspective:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTGYMMNbNEs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa3MnKV1CKI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQA0oACwiWI

[Galloism]

Childcare gets foisted on most women, and it all takes is one trusted mommy blogger for them to renounce and recant contemporary medical science.

Believe women, unless when we're wrong.

Mommy bloggers are responsible for a lot more damage in life than we give them credit for. As someone interested in abuse and social welfare, I'm constantly hearing stories of some housewife getting in trouble for engaging in some neglectful, abusive, or otherwise nasty behavior because it was suggested to her by a mommy blog.

I have a lot of problems in general with the way pseudoscience, mysticism, marketing scams, and other various woo tend to be primarily targeted at women. It is something of a symptom of women's exclusion from prominent areas of like such as science, medicine, and business, but the response to this is not to cede those spheres to men and try to create our own "alternate" spheres. No Karen, your essential oils and pyramid scheme are not an empowering alternative to real medicine and real business — build your house on the rocks, not the sand, women will always fail if we invest ourselves in inherently faulty enterprises.

It really shows how treating women well has larger effects on society as a whole. Women are excluded from medicine, women become anti-vaxxers, now measles are back. The lesson: Stop excluding 50% of the population from medicine. Etc. Obviously there are more factors that go into it, such as the United States' shitty healthcare, but that is one prominent aspect of it.

I’d like to point out women are over 75% of healthcare workers.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Women are excluded from medicine,

Excuse me?

More women than men are enrolled in medical school

For the first time ever, the majority of U.S. medical school students are women, marking another milestone in the gradual diversification of those studying to become America’s next generation of physicians, according to 2019 data released by the AAMC.

Women constitute 50.5% of today’s medical students, building on steady increases in recent years that saw women account for the majority of first-year students in 2017 and most of medical school applicants in 2018. Women reached the cusp of the majority in total enrollment last year, when they constituted 49.5% of all medical students, up from 46.9% in 2015.

This has been building for a decade or more, so it's hardly news.

[Loben III]

Mommy bloggers are responsible for a lot more damage in life than we give them credit for. As someone interested in abuse and social welfare, I'm constantly hearing stories of some housewife getting in trouble for engaging in some neglectful, abusive, or otherwise nasty behavior because it was suggested to her by a mommy blog.

I have a lot of problems in general with the way pseudoscience, mysticism, marketing scams, and other various woo tend to be primarily targeted at women. It is something of a symptom of women's exclusion from prominent areas of like such as science, medicine, and business, but the response to this is not to cede those spheres to men and try to create our own "alternate" spheres. No Karen, your essential oils and pyramid scheme are not an empowering alternative to real medicine and real business — build your house on the rocks, not the sand, women will always fail if we invest ourselves in inherently faulty enterprises.

It really shows how treating women well has larger effects on society as a whole. Women are excluded from medicine, women become anti-vaxxers, now measles are back. The lesson: Stop excluding 50% of the population from medicine. Etc. Obviously there are more factors that go into it, such as the United States' shitty healthcare, but that is one prominent aspect of it.

I’d like to point out women are over 75% of healthcare workers.

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

[Galloism]

I’d like to point out women are over 75% of healthcare workers.

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

About the vaccine?

[Loben III]

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

About the vaccine?

yes.

[Galloism]

About the vaccine?

yes.

Oh. No that’s separate.

Gioventh’s notion is that women are locked out of the medical field and that’s the drive for all the pseudoscience bullshit spreading in mommy blogs and such. While I understand why she assumed that, it doesn’t really fit the facts. Women are not now locked out of the medical field nor have they been for a very very long time.

The likelihood on the vaccine bullshit is that women work less and spend more time online doing social media stuff. And social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.

[Loben III]

yes.

Oh. No that’s separate.

Gioventh’s notion is that women are locked out of the medical field and that’s the drive for all the pseudoscience bullshit spreading in mommy blogs and such. While I understand why she assumed that, it doesn’t really fit the facts. Women are not now locked out of the medical field nor have they been for a very very long time.

The likelihood on the vaccine bullshit is that women work less and spend more time online doing social media stuff. And social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.

i second your last point.

[New haven america]

If this statement were posted somewhere other than NSG, I would assume it was parody.

You're not, you're assigned those roles. I was not born a boy, nor a girl, I was born a baby. It's not like what they see or assume at birth holds true, like I clearly am not weighing in at 8lbs and 6 oz.

I was born a boy~

So let me ask: How do you explain me relating more towards female or gender neutral while also being 100% content with having a dick?

You know, this overreliance you have to claim that gender and sex aren't real or only socially constructed really hurts the transgender movement if you think about. What do you say to say... A transgender man who's never been comfortable with a female body or female gender roles, but actively desires male coded gender roles or a male-like body? "Oh, gender isn't real, so your plight doesn't mean anything."

Like, you know that whole "Don't discount problems because you don't experience them" mindset? Yeah, might need to try a little bit of that.

[Xeng He]

yes.

Oh. No that’s separate.

Gioventh’s notion is that women are locked out of the medical field and that’s the drive for all the pseudoscience bullshit spreading in mommy blogs and such. While I understand why she assumed that, it doesn’t really fit the facts. Women are not now locked out of the medical field nor have they been for a very very long time.

The likelihood on the vaccine bullshit is that women work less and spend more time online doing social media stuff. And social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.

Can I sig this?

[Auzkhia]

You're not, you're assigned those roles. I was not born a boy, nor a girl, I was born a baby. It's not like what they see or assume at birth holds true, like I clearly am not weighing in at 8lbs and 6 oz.

I was born a boy~

So let me ask: How do you explain me relating more towards female or gender neutral while also being 100% content with having a dick?

You know, this overreliance you have to claim that gender and sex aren't real or only socially constructed really hurts the transgender movement if you think about. What do you say to say... A transgender man who's never been comfortable with a female body or female gender roles, but actively desires male coded gender roles or a male-like body? "Oh, gender isn't real, so your plight doesn't mean anything."

Like, you know that whole "Don't discount problems because you don't experience them" mindset? Yeah, might need to try a little bit of that.

Alright then, I think you will find I have already addressed this. Frankly, you seem to misconstruing my points, almost— dare I say, strawpersoning it.

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

Biological essentialism, gender performativity theory, transmedicalism, feminine essence theory, etc— and all the atomized commonalities, these are all justifications for why some is transgender or a man or a woman, or any gender for that matter. I push back against more stronger like transmedicalism and bio-essentialism, as they lead to exclusion of other people based on gender identity. But still, I don't really care why I am trans, it's one of life's greatest mysteries, sure, but I know that my transition, socially, medically, legally, and psychologically, has had the greatest increase in material wellbeing and health, and how I express myself. I'm just a queer enby girl, don't ask questions.

Exactly, there are many complicated factors at play, it's just best to respect good faith self-identification. I'm tired of being stuck in debates that are too personal. I come here to help and educate, and that only goes so far.

This sounds more appropriate for the Trans Thread, which is where my replies are from.

[New haven america]

I was born a boy~

So let me ask: How do you explain me relating more towards female or gender neutral while also being 100% content with having a dick?

You know, this overreliance you have to claim that gender and sex aren't real or only socially constructed really hurts the transgender movement if you think about. What do you say to say... A transgender man who's never been comfortable with a female body or female gender roles, but actively desires male coded gender roles or a male-like body? "Oh, gender isn't real, so your plight doesn't mean anything."

Like, you know that whole "Don't discount problems because you don't experience them" mindset? Yeah, might need to try a little bit of that.

Alright then, I think you will find I have already addressed this. Frankly, you seem to misconstruing my points, almost— dare I say, strawpersoning it.

I find that I have become less interested in why trans people are trans. It really doesn't matter to me. My gender is just here and that's what I know. My non-binary gender and my womanhood are just happening, and I don't have to justify myself to others. I know what works for me, I know that others work for them. It's always why and how, yet, I never back cisgender people into the corner and demand a justification as to why assigned gender at birth was an accurate projection for them. But maybe I should, for fairness and equality's sake.

Biological essentialism, gender performativity theory, transmedicalism, feminine essence theory, etc— and all the atomized commonalities, these are all justifications for why some is transgender or a man or a woman, or any gender for that matter. I push back against more stronger like transmedicalism and bio-essentialism, as they lead to exclusion of other people based on gender identity. But still, I don't really care why I am trans, it's one of life's greatest mysteries, sure, but I know that my transition, socially, medically, legally, and psychologically, has had the greatest increase in material wellbeing and health, and how I express myself. I'm just a queer enby girl, don't ask questions.

Exactly, there are many complicated factors at play, it's just best to respect good faith self-identification. I'm tired of being stuck in debates that are too personal. I come here to help and educate, and that only goes so far.

This sounds more appropriate for the Trans Thread, which is where my replies are from.

Like, you know that whole "Don't discount problems because you don't experience them" mindset? Yeah, might need to try a little bit of that.

Please read my full post before trying to make a response, thank you.

Gender roles are 100% socially constructed, but this continued claim that gender itself is as well is just you going "I don't deal with this issue so it doesn't exist." It's like a rich white guy saying cops don't discriminate against black men because he's never had any trouble with the cops.

[Galloism]

Oh. No that’s separate.

Gioventh’s notion is that women are locked out of the medical field and that’s the drive for all the pseudoscience bullshit spreading in mommy blogs and such. While I understand why she assumed that, it doesn’t really fit the facts. Women are not now locked out of the medical field nor have they been for a very very long time.

The likelihood on the vaccine bullshit is that women work less and spend more time online doing social media stuff. And social media is basically cancer. I’d like to reiterate that social media is bringing the downfall of society in a lot of ways.

Can I sig this?

Free country.

For now.

[New haven america]

I’d like to point out women are over 75% of healthcare workers.

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

75% of healthcare workers aren't all mommy bloggers too.

[Fahran]

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

As a woman, you can choose either healthcare worker or mommy blogger as your sub-class.

[Adamede]

Can I sig this?

Free country.

For now.

The internet is truly the best and worse thing to have happened to modern society

[Sundiata]

Free country.

For now.

The internet is truly the best and worse thing to have happened to modern society

It's just a tool to get work done for most people.

[Suriyanakhon]

an impressive margin but doesn't explain the earlier statistic.

As a woman, you can choose either healthcare worker or mommy blogger as your sub-class.

What if I don't want to be a healthcare worker or mommy blogger though.

[Adamede]

The internet is truly the best and worse thing to have happened to modern society

It's just a tool to get work done for most people.

Its that, and so, so much more.

[Saiwania]

I've finally found enough "Nice Girls" to be convinced that they exist. The chat logs are similar to what the "Nice Guys" are doing, but its different enough to where you can usually somehow tell that they're not a man that's posting. I'd still be willing to bet that fewer amongst them can be considered Incels because come on- they're a woman so even if they're toxic, chances are they can get a guy on a temporary basis easier than a repulsive guy trying to do vice versa.

Nice Guys and Nice Girls may be equally as dysfunctional and similar to each other, but they don't have enough chemistry to pair off from what I've observed. They either fight against eachother or complain about the world to each other, but otherwise still bother all of the normal people or those that're on a higher level than them by nature.