[Discussion] ACAB as "all X are Y" trolling

[Thermodolia]

Kind of a poor example, as (correct me if I'm wrong) you can probably get away with occasionally mentioning sex in the abstract sense. So long as you don't make a thing out of it, or get explicit.
I believe that discussion came up as part of the existence of the Abortion Discussion Thread.

I feel like ACAB is a bad example on your all part when Anarchist theory had adopted it a rally cry as have several other communities. Again I'm not saying that it should be allowed every time, but if it is explicitly used in the way you all accuse it is used "EVERYTIME" then sure, but it shouldn't be a blanket ban, because it's going to punish, the anti-police sides talks about theory and rhetoric, and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in that ask, to simply remove it as a blanket immediately banned statement.

If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you

[The New California Republic]

Except very rarely do we use Mate in my area of the English speaking world to mean friend. It's kinda super rare, and it still take in outside context to get there and understand it's usage in the moment. Which is all I'm all asking, so even if you consider it a bad example, can you at least agree that a blanket ban on the term is not needed? I mean hell they can still choose that every usage of it is and has been offensive, but disallowing the discussion of it's use in political theory, when it has been used in said for 40+ years is ridiculous.

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?

[Nova Vandalia]

I feel like ACAB is a bad example on your all part when Anarchist theory had adopted it a rally cry as have several other communities. Again I'm not saying that it should be allowed every time, but if it is explicitly used in the way you all accuse it is used "EVERYTIME" then sure, but it shouldn't be a blanket ban, because it's going to punish, the anti-police sides talks about theory and rhetoric, and I don't think I'm being unreasonable in that ask, to simply remove it as a blanket immediately banned statement.

If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you

We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

[VW53Aland]

That's the thing, they chose to be cops.

True. So?
How does that make it okay for you to call them bastards?

[The New California Republic]

We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

[Nova Vandalia]

Except very rarely do we use Mate in my area of the English speaking world to mean friend. It's kinda super rare, and it still take in outside context to get there and understand it's usage in the moment. Which is all I'm all asking, so even if you consider it a bad example, can you at least agree that a blanket ban on the term is not needed? I mean hell they can still choose that every usage of it is and has been offensive, but disallowing the discussion of it's use in political theory, when it has been used in said for 40+ years is ridiculous.

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?

I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective. I'm sorry you didn't hear me the first 20 times I've said it. And I am saying if it used in this manner, in an earnest discussion leave it, if the mods read it that way. I can't even talk about it usage in current events if y'all had it your way, or when discussing Fred Hampton if I wanted to, or when discussing modern anrcho-mutualist theory.

You're example of LGBTQ+ Hate Speech I agree should be banned, but a person who has experienced that hate to say I can't use it as an example of what I've faced because it's on a no no list when telling about my experience as a bisexual person is ridiculous. You expect the mods to take context into their decision, and that's all I'm asking for here.

[Nova Vandalia]

We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.

[Ethel mermania]

If you can’t argue against police without resorting to trolling then that’s on you

We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

On the right so is "all leftists are morons", doesn't mean its ok to say here.

[The Reformed American Republic]

We can but it still foundational as a slogan amd cry and youre the one who has bren bad faith arguing this entire time. I admit I fell into that a few times myself, but still c'mon.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

That's tame. "Gas the Kikes" is a very bad political slogan used by neo-Nazis, and a good example of what shouldn't be allowed even though it's political.

[The New California Republic]

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?

I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.

No I'm not, I'm just letting you see the very bad can of worms that is waiting as you are brandishing that can opener.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

Many who make the statement probably don't make that distinction either.

[Alvecia]

The issue though is that just because something can be/is a slogan doesn't mean that it isn't rulebreaking. If it was a valid excuse for rulebreaking then we'd have a situation of advocating death being OK; like, say, if the far-right in RL started using the slogan "drown the migrants" and someone then used it on the forums.

You're purposely comparing it to stuff way beyond it, to try to make it look worse than it is, obviously the bastard isn't synonymous with saying someone should be drowned. :\ And again they're not calling individuals bastards, they're calling the policing instutitions and what they do as bastardly. All I'm saying is check the context to make sure they're using it in that way, verses the more literally sense.

I mean, in this situation the difference between calling someone a bastard and calling for someone's death is kinda irrelevant, as both are rule breaking regardless.

And again, I'll note that the onus is not on Moderation or the userbase to determine the context behind rule breaking behaviour.
I'll point again once more to insults between friends as a comparable rulebreaking scenario.

[Nova Vandalia]

I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective.

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.

[Nova Vandalia]

Heres some more while where at it

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ac ... 43386.html

https://registerforum.org/12197/opinion ... n-america/

https://www.thenational.scot/news/18734 ... -say-acab/

https://www.mic.com/p/the-story-behind- ... e-22992554

https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/the ... ry-of-acab

https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/what-d ... mean-1312/

But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban. I can keep going to show it has a history of being used in my way if y'all need to me. I mean there is a plethora of sources.

[VW53Aland]

[...] expect the mods to take context into their decision [...]

I believe mods do take context into consideration.
Proof?
This whole topic is still here.
So for instance using ACAB in the context of discussing whether it is okay to use ACAB on this forum is acceptable, but using ACAB to express your opinion that all cops are bastards is not.

[Alvecia]

Heres some more while where at it


But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban.

The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.

[Ethel mermania]

This argument is entirely spurious, as in what area of the English-speaking world would "all cops are bastards" not mean the same thing?

I have explained this time and time among Anti-Police Protestors, among Anarchist Groups, among anti-fascists organizations it's generally accepted as a term which is a critique of the institution not of the individuals as a collective. I'm sorry you didn't hear me the first 20 times I've said it. And I am saying if it used in this manner, in an earnest discussion leave it, if the mods read it that way. I can't even talk about it usage in current events if y'all had it your way, or when discussing Fred Hampton if I wanted to, or when discussing modern anrcho-mutualist theory.

You're example of LGBTQ+ Hate Speech I agree should be banned, but a person who has experienced that hate to say I can't use it as an example of what I've faced because it's on a no no list when telling about my experience as a bisexual person is ridiculous. You expect the mods to take context into their decision, and that's all I'm asking for here.

You can explain what you want to whoever you want, it doesn't make it a fact, and doesn't make it not a slur.

All cops are bastards targets every cop, good or bad simply for participating in the institution of police work. Its not targeted at subset of cops but all cops by the virtue of them being cops.

[The New California Republic]

Sorry but as I alluded to earlier I don't believe for a second that the police themselves are being partitioned off from the institution in the statement, and the overwhelming majority of people viewing the statement "all cops are bastards" wouldn't see the distinction either.

https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

[Nova Vandalia]

Heres some more while where at it


But oh no surely it has never been and can never be used in this context and therefore need a blanket ban.

The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.

Because the Anti-Police Movement is real Niche in 2020.

[Alvecia]

The issues isn't that the context doesn't exist, but that it's a lot more niche than you think it is.

Because the Anti-Police Movement is real Niche in 2020.

Usage of ACAB in your particular context amongst the general population is, yes.

[The Reformed American Republic]

https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

Plus, if you're going after the institution, why can't they just say that the institution is corrupt and should be abolished? That's not rulebreaking and supposedly makes the same point, without the controversy.

[Nova Vandalia]

https://www.theransomnote.com/musings/a ... of-phrase/

https://www.gq.com/story/history-of-acab

https://sjhexpress.com/opinion/2020/09/ ... hind-acab/

http://www.wsm.ie/c/acab-all-cops-are-bounded

https://www.strike.coop/an-anarchist-guide-to-acab

All theorist articles and some laymen articles that discusses it use and meaning.

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

So we can't use words with more than one meaning because we can't trust the mods to ferret it out? Oof, you must hold them in high regards.

[Nova Vandalia]

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

Plus, if you're going after the institution, why can't they just say that the institution is corrupt and should be abolished? That's not rulebreaking and supposedly makes the same point, without the controversy.

Because ACAB does that, and has more power and history behind it's meaning, it's a powerful statement, that's why we're having a discussion over it. It moves people.

[Cordel One]

Whether you mean to troll or not doesn’t matter. What matters is that it’s trolling because bastards is an insult and when used in an all x are y manner it’s trolling.

I’m sure there’s other ways to express your disapproval with police without resorting to “acab”, I know I have

There's definitely a distinction to make between saying ACAB implying that all cops are bad to saying that the system incentivizes bad cops while silencing the good ones. The latter makes it more clear and less trolly.

Enforcing the system is a terrible thing to do.

[Alvecia]

Sorry but I'm still not buying it. As written, "ACAB"/"all cops are bastards", it's just not possible for Moderation to determine just from that phrase used on the forums if it is only referring to the institution, especially since that interpretation is not guaranteed as being the only meaning of that phrase.

So we can't use words with more than one meaning because we can't trust the mods to ferret it out? Oof, you must hold them in high regards.

I think you'll fallen back into bad faith again