It's not as hard as you'd think, humans are surprisingly fragile most of the time.
But yeah this isn't shocking, France is gonna keep having these incidents happen for a long time.
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by Washington Resistance Army » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:42 pm
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:44 pm
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by Kowani » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:44 pm
But yeah this isn't shocking, France is gonna keep having these incidents happen for a long time.
by Deacarsia » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:44 pm
by Dolgo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:45 pm
Albrenia wrote:Dolgo wrote:
In a perfect world, people would chillax and have a sense of humour, but we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a world with a great deal of religious diversity. Some of which includes religious extremists. Unless you're going to exclude it from France (hard to do without excluding a bunch of people who are not extremists), the nation must adapt. If it doesn't, then it must accept the state of disharmony as a consequence for permitting laissez faire communication on religious topics.
You can't have your cake (have the freedom) and eat it (have the harmony) too. Unfortunate as it is, that is the reality. Like I said, either you accept the status quo, enact restrictions on speech to ensure religious harmony, or exclude Muslims from French society. Neither option is ideal, but the second is the least worst. You can have order, at the very small price (in my view) of not publishing in the media egregiously offensive material that harms religious harmony.
Singapore faced severe rioting in its early past, the only way the government put a stop to that was restricting how people can communicate to one another. There is no other way.
That seems like a bad road to go down. Maybe not if the extremists are suddenly okay with all the other ways non-believers violate their religion, but I don't see the chances of that being very high.
by Kyundao » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:51 pm
Dolgo wrote:The way I see it, they've got three choices:
1. Continue with the status quo.
2. Change laws to protect religious harmony at the necessary cost of restricting freedom of expression, along with enacting the death penalty for murderers. This would please Muslims and even some Christians by prohibiting people from disparaging their religion publicly (including other religious groups). The death penalty would give the public a sense of justice for extremists who feel the aforementioned concessions are not enough and commit murder anyway.
3. Change laws to assimilate Muslims into the greater whole and or pass anti-Muslim laws that exclude them from French society.
The status quo is not working. 2 is pragmatic, but would require France to depart from its secular liberal norm. 3 might be popular, but will only inflame tensions even more. I'm guessing the first option will continue until the majority becomes impatient enough to elect a radical right-wing government to do the third option. The second option would be best in my opinion. Singapore maintains its religious harmony by using a similar strategy to 2.
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:53 pm
Kyundao wrote:Japan used option 3 on Christians by forcing them to renounce Christianity under pain of death and they did this by making them step on an image of a crucified Christ. This largely worked as Japan's Christian population was almost extinct by the time Commodore Perry arrived. If absolutely necessary (keywords: absolutely necessary), France could do the same with Muslims, but with an option to leave and never return as an alternative to the death penalty.
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by Picairn » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:58 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:Japan had the benefit of being in complete self-inflicted isolation and being some minor-ass country in the back-end of nowhere that nobody in particular cared about at an age international law didn't exist as it does now. France can't "stop being Muslims or die" its way out of this mess that France itself created in the first place, they're not China.
by Senkaku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:And once again, Muslims do something comically shitty in a "this would be a war criminal if anyone other than Muslims did it" (see: KSA's preferred method of execution)... and immediately afterwards, the #Not AllMuslims crowd pops up.
by Aeritai » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 pm
Kyundao wrote:Dolgo wrote:The way I see it, they've got three choices:
1. Continue with the status quo.
2. Change laws to protect religious harmony at the necessary cost of restricting freedom of expression, along with enacting the death penalty for murderers. This would please Muslims and even some Christians by prohibiting people from disparaging their religion publicly (including other religious groups). The death penalty would give the public a sense of justice for extremists who feel the aforementioned concessions are not enough and commit murder anyway.
3. Change laws to assimilate Muslims into the greater whole and or pass anti-Muslim laws that exclude them from French society.
The status quo is not working. 2 is pragmatic, but would require France to depart from its secular liberal norm. 3 might be popular, but will only inflame tensions even more. I'm guessing the first option will continue until the majority becomes impatient enough to elect a radical right-wing government to do the third option. The second option would be best in my opinion. Singapore maintains its religious harmony by using a similar strategy to 2.
Japan used option 3 on Christians by forcing them to renounce Christianity under pain of death and they did this by making them step on an image of a crucified Christ. This largely worked as Japan's Christian population was almost extinct by the time Commodore Perry arrived. If absolutely necessary (keywords: absolutely necessary), France could do the same with Muslims, but with an option to leave and never return as an alternative to the death penalty.
We should keep in mind that this isn't Singapore; France was never that diverse to begin with.
by New Lizhou » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:00 pm
Dolgo wrote:It's disrespectful to many Muslims to depict Muhammad in pictures. I don't really see why one would want to anyway, aside from intentionally provoking Muslims. I think it is irresponsible to do so, as it would very likely harm fragile relations with the Muslim community.
That being said, being offended doesn't excuse one from committing murder, and offending religious feelings is not enough to warrant decapitation. I recommend France reinstate the death penalty, at the very least for murder. The terrorist (the one who committed the decapitation) should be sentenced to the guillotine, provided they are found guilty in a court of law. France must make it clear that assaults against its secular state will not be tolerated.
As a preventive measure, France should take religious harmony very seriously and enact laws that make it illegal to promote religious disharmony (on either side), similar to what Singapore successfully does. It should also take the threat of Islamic terrorism far more seriously, any ethnic/religious geographic concentration should be broken up and distributed evenly across the population. This will help "dilute" radicalization. At the same time, enact laws that prohibit religions from spreading subversive and anti-government rhetoric, along with any religious group promoting disharmony. Non-citizens promoting disharmony should be deported and anti-social religious organizations should be banned.
Vive la France!
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by Dolgo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:02 pm
Kyundao wrote:Dolgo wrote:The way I see it, they've got three choices:
1. Continue with the status quo.
2. Change laws to protect religious harmony at the necessary cost of restricting freedom of expression, along with enacting the death penalty for murderers. This would please Muslims and even some Christians by prohibiting people from disparaging their religion publicly (including other religious groups). The death penalty would give the public a sense of justice for extremists who feel the aforementioned concessions are not enough and commit murder anyway.
3. Change laws to assimilate Muslims into the greater whole and or pass anti-Muslim laws that exclude them from French society.
The status quo is not working. 2 is pragmatic, but would require France to depart from its secular liberal norm. 3 might be popular, but will only inflame tensions even more. I'm guessing the first option will continue until the majority becomes impatient enough to elect a radical right-wing government to do the third option. The second option would be best in my opinion. Singapore maintains its religious harmony by using a similar strategy to 2.
Japan used option 3 on Christians by forcing them to renounce Christianity under pain of death and they did this by making them step on an image of a crucified Christ. This largely worked as Japan's Christian population was almost extinct by the time Commodore Perry arrived. If absolutely necessary (keywords: absolutely necessary), France could do the same with Muslims, but with an option to leave and never return as an alternative to the death penalty.
We should keep in mind that this isn't Singapore; France was never that diverse to begin with.
by Mexico Superior » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:06 pm
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:09 pm
Picairn wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:Japan had the benefit of being in complete self-inflicted isolation and being some minor-ass country in the back-end of nowhere that nobody in particular cared about at an age international law didn't exist as it does now. France can't "stop being Muslims or die" its way out of this mess that France itself created in the first place, they're not China.
France is surrounded by Britain (its age-old rival), Germany (its old arch-enemy) and kept in check by the US (the world superpower). Can't attempt genocidal shit like that when you are in the central part of Western Europe.
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:10 pm
Senkaku wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:And once again, Muslims do something comically shitty in a "this would be a war criminal if anyone other than Muslims did it" (see: KSA's preferred method of execution)... and immediately afterwards, the #Not AllMuslims crowd pops up.
is the counterproposal here to say "#YesAllMuslims" and then start massacring a civilian population on the basis of collective guilt for a "war crime"?
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by Albrenia » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:11 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:And once again, Muslims do something comically shitty in a "this would be a war criminal if anyone other than Muslims did it" (see: KSA's preferred method of execution)... and immediately afterwards, the #Not AllMuslims crowd pops up.
by Senkaku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:12 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:Senkaku wrote:is the counterproposal here to say "#YesAllMuslims" and then start massacring a civilian population on the basis of collective guilt for a "war crime"?
Hard yes to the former, but equally hard no to the latter. It'd be pointless, also a crime against humanity iirc.
by Senkaku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:13 pm
Kyundao wrote:Dolgo wrote:The way I see it, they've got three choices:
1. Continue with the status quo.
2. Change laws to protect religious harmony at the necessary cost of restricting freedom of expression, along with enacting the death penalty for murderers. This would please Muslims and even some Christians by prohibiting people from disparaging their religion publicly (including other religious groups). The death penalty would give the public a sense of justice for extremists who feel the aforementioned concessions are not enough and commit murder anyway.
3. Change laws to assimilate Muslims into the greater whole and or pass anti-Muslim laws that exclude them from French society.
The status quo is not working. 2 is pragmatic, but would require France to depart from its secular liberal norm. 3 might be popular, but will only inflame tensions even more. I'm guessing the first option will continue until the majority becomes impatient enough to elect a radical right-wing government to do the third option. The second option would be best in my opinion. Singapore maintains its religious harmony by using a similar strategy to 2.
Japan used option 3 on Christians by forcing them to renounce Christianity under pain of death and they did this by making them step on an image of a crucified Christ. This largely worked as Japan's Christian population was almost extinct by the time Commodore Perry arrived. If absolutely necessary (keywords: absolutely necessary), France could do the same with Muslims, but with an option to leave and never return as an alternative to the death penalty.
We should keep in mind that this isn't Singapore; France was never that diverse to begin with.
by Senkaku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:15 pm
Picairn wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:Japan had the benefit of being in complete self-inflicted isolation and being some minor-ass country in the back-end of nowhere that nobody in particular cared about at an age international law didn't exist as it does now. France can't "stop being Muslims or die" its way out of this mess that France itself created in the first place, they're not China.
France is surrounded by Britain (its age-old rival), Germany (its old arch-enemy) and kept in check by the US (the world superpower). Can't attempt genocidal shit like that when you are in the central part of Western Europe.
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:16 pm
Senkaku wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:Hard yes to the former, but equally hard no to the latter. It'd be pointless, also a crime against humanity iirc.
so you've decided to believe that a large number of people are guilty of war crimes but also that punishing them would be pointless and wrong? or, more realistically, is the proposal to simply subject them to every sort of debasement, punishment, and humiliation short of death for their simple identity
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by Dolgo » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:17 pm
Mexico Superior wrote:People keep bringing up the death penalty, but capital punishment wouldn't be very helpful. The death penalty wouldn't impact Islamic extremists, because they believe that being killed in Jihad is a free ticket to their paradise. According to their interpretation of Islam, if you die in Jihad your sins are automatically forgiven (I'm probably over simplifying). To be executed by what they see as an anti-Islamic government, for carrying out an act in the name of Allah, would be totally acceptable in their minds. If anything death is preferable to life. If they die as a result of Jihad, they died for Allah, while fighting against the infidel. How is being a martyr, and a guaranteed ticket to paradise a deterrent? They have very little intention of simply going on about their lives after they do something like this. This terrorist was killed by the police of what he believed was an anti-Islamic power, while carrying out an act in the name of Allah. As far as he, and those who believe the same as he does, he is in paradise right now, being rewarded.
Obviously this is not the interpretation of all Muslims, but it is the one many extremists follow.
by Albrenia » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:18 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:Senkaku wrote:so you've decided to believe that a large number of people are guilty of war crimes but also that punishing them would be pointless and wrong? or, more realistically, is the proposal to simply subject them to every sort of debasement, punishment, and humiliation short of death for their simple identity
If that's what it takes for shit like "people being decapitated in the street for the great crime of showing a caricature of some guy who died 1400 years ago" to stop? Yes.
by The Restored Danelaw » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:20 pm
Albrenia wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:If that's what it takes for shit like "people being decapitated in the street for the great crime of showing a caricature of some guy who died 1400 years ago" to stop? Yes.
You'd probably think it unfair if you were exiled for the crimes of people who share a trait with you though, right?
Collective guilt is bullshit.
June 14, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Kingly Heere takes Sanct James. Nahowland gives up the Crig in Miscitoland after nearly half a year of fighting. | Spanning breaks out between the Gemeanwealth and China when HMS Siegfried sinks down 3 Chineish boats wrongfully sailing in Angledanish waters near Eadwardhaven. | OFN's General Forsamling sheds to 'deal with the Crisis in Indey'. Japan, the Danelaw, New England give the Farmers' regearing in Indey a Lastsay until July 1 to give up to the Regearingstrue in Hyderabad "or else." | Gang Shao, China's President comes out ill with a deadly shape of forstanderscrab. Loremen warn that an Eld of Criglords may be forthcoming in China if Shao dies before naming an erfollower.
by Senkaku » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:20 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:Senkaku wrote:so you've decided to believe that a large number of people are guilty of war crimes but also that punishing them would be pointless and wrong? or, more realistically, is the proposal to simply subject them to every sort of debasement, punishment, and humiliation short of death for their simple identity
If that's what it takes for shit like "people being decapitated in the street for the great crime of showing a caricature of some guy who died 1400 years ago" to stop? Yes.
by Aeritai » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:21 pm
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