Balkanisation of the United States 「Yes or No?」

[US-SSR]

I'd settle for abolishing the Electoral College, expanding the Supreme Court to 13 after 2021, admitting DC and Puerto Rico as States and giving states with more people more Senators.

..overturning Citizens United..

and Shelby County and Janus. all implied in expanding the Court above.

[Deacarsia]

The United States should be broken up into several smaller confederacies, so as to better represent the people of each unique region.

[Theberstan]

Remind me again why this thread hasn’t been whisked away by the NS mods.

[United Engiresco]

As an American,

BREAK THIS NATION INTO KAISERREICH STYLE

[Zoygaria]

Remind me again why this thread hasn’t been whisked away by the NS mods.

An excellent question, to which I do not know the answer. Maybe not enough people have called attention to it.

[Geneviev]

No. There should be changes, and we can discuss how extreme they should be, but abolishing a country is a terrible idea.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Remind me again why this thread hasn’t been whisked away by the NS mods.

Have you reported the thread?

[Resilient Acceleration]

I never said I live in the US... Also the last 2019 student protests against the horrific crime bill was very effective, and succeeded in the parliament postponing the bill for a
few years. Yet the movement quickly fell apart after the student leaders were called to TV debates, exposing the cracks between them while public policy experts grilled them to the abyss. Things like this can be used to build a clear public consensus, and unite differing factions to effectively voice for changes.

I don't live in the US either, but this site does revolve around US politics a lot, and the OP is about the US, mostly I'm talking about the lethargy in changing a system rather than most people's response here which is to reject change without thought.

Ah, I see. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, anyway. I'm not really that special, but some of my closer friends are (they consistently alternate rank #1 between themselves during the mock national college entrance exams, and became twitter celebrities), so if I succeed this might actually have a shot.

CCP: it's free real estate.

China and Russia should also be dismantled.

India: it's free real estate (?). Also a multipolar world (which we're heading into) will open a can of worms with big impacts, though, which we must consider.

[Narland]

NOTE: On the advice of others on this forum, I have rewritten it to be less snide. My intention wasn't to be snide, and it was wise of to point out my biases. My hope is to make this more enjoyable and less accusatory.

The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?

Normally I would say that you are trolling, but my hope is this is an honest post. My hunch is that the US public education has failed. I am saddened that this is not a satirical post. Nonetheless here are my thoughts:

Perhaps we can become Communist China. Oh wait, those of Han Chinese ethnic descent are throwing Uyghars into forced labor camps and have been committing slow genocide on Tibet for decades. I wonder what minorities the US Army is rounding up in our cities and forcing them into forced labor camps. None?... huh. Not very racist of us to let anyone work and live anywhere they want regardless of their melanin content.

Maybe we can become Iran. Oh wait. LBGTQ are defenestrated, imprisoned, or forced into mental asylums. I wonder how may LBGTQ the US Marshall's Service are rounding up and tossing off of skyscrapers? None?... hmmm. Not very homophobic of us to let us march openly in the streets every Pride Day.

Maybe we can become North Korea. Oh wait. The great leader is obese in a land of people literally eating grass and bark in order to provide basic sustenance as they starve to death in their "classless" Utopian people's paradise. I wonder how many of America's underclass, and poor are required to restrict themselves to rations cards by the Department of Labor and told at the point of a gun that it a privilege to hunger for the Great Leader. There is no food on the commissary shelves and it is a crime against the state to eat anything not on the allotment (that the Party is too inept to be able to provide)? none?.. how about that? Hmmm. Not very elitist of us when we can all move to any state that still mostly recognizes the right to the pursuit of happiness and start their own own business, work as an employee, or take risks to improve their livelihood and become as fat and sassy as the economy will allow.

It is a crime in many countries to move, travel more than 20 miles, or even holiday without explicit State permission btw. Can you image having to go to an equivalent of the DMV to apply for a certificate to leave your immediate jurisdiction? It boggles the mind that there are such petty governments out there.

Half of this country's States had been free, and half had held to chattel slavery. After 70 years as a nation one party rose up in the bloodiest war we have ever engaged in against in many cases their own family to abolish slavery and let every one have the same freedom and equality throughout the land.

Half of America passed the 13th, 14th and 14th Amendments against the howling of the vanquished other half to recognize the freed slaves the right to citizenship, equality under the Law, and the right to vote. Yes, some of of America was it that resisted the Reconstruction and formed their own terrorist group garbed in bedsheets to keep person's of color from enjoying their new found freedom. But the KKK today is rightfully vilified by nearly everyone.

Most of America opposed the Jim Crow laws and who fought for them. Most America fought for the Civil Rights Acts from the 1876 until now. The point is each generation of Americans faced a societal ill and rose up to the challenge to fight against the evil doers in our midst. If we hadn't there would still be an America of half the States being free and half of the States holding to chattel slavery. But we have passed and continue to pass Civil Rights legislation that passes, and when defied are enforced by the National Guard.

It has been illegal in the United States since the Civil War to discriminate by race, creed and color of skin. But some of the people in the Untied States failed to recognize it. So half of other of us had to fight to stop their evil every step of the way. At any time anyone who didn't like living under one State or City could leave their oppressors and move to a State that from the beginning recognized abolition, suffrage, civil rights, freedom and equality under the law.

My grandmother escaped from Oklahoma (no exaggeration) to live in a State (Wyoming, then later Idaho) that recognized her as a human being first, and not as a miscegenation half-breed that her birth state required to be put on her birth certificate.

America is based on an idea that all natural persons are created equal, that they all have inherent right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness; and that the sole purpose of the government is to secure those rights. Those who oppose this do not love their country and are thus are both unpatriots and unamerican -- viz., the are not Patriots and they are certainly Unamerican. Patriotism is loving your country enough to support it when it is right, and to change it when it is in the wrong. That is what every patriotic nation does. Unpatriotic nations just don't give a care.

I am happy to live in a country that started out giving suffrage to more of the general population than any other nation in modern history.

I am happy to live in a country that has expanded suffrage from interested landed gentry to eventually all citizens regardless of race, creed, skin color, sex, creed, or national origin. That is the law of the land, and there are still countries where women cannot vote, cannot drive a car, and cannot be out alone in public without a familial escort.
I am happy to live in a country that fought a bloody civil war to end chattel slavery based on skin color. After all, race based on skin color is a political fiction created by demagogues to control weak minds. We are all one race -- human. Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with both American Law and Christianity, of which many Americans identify.

I am happy to live in a country where anybody of any ideology can freely declare a day of celebration and march in the streets should they so desire. There are many that will hunt you down and crush you if you do not cowtow to the State ideology with a smile on ones face at all times.

I am happy to live in a country that went half-way across the world to end the menace of fascism.

I am happy to live in a country, and be part of a generation that was part of economically defeating Soviet Communism, and watch 10s of millions set free from the oppressive serfdom of Marxist.

I am not so happy that we are no longer a free country regarding work and business, but right to pursuit of happiness unmolested by despotism will once again be recognized. Most people have to register their business in a state that is not the state they live in order be self-employed, or run their own business. Employees have to move to where the jobs are, but this has always been the case. But in the freer States the wage to cost of living ratios are to many of us still worth moving to, in order to better our lives.

I could go on, but that is the preponderance to my thoughts on the issue. There are other countries that are worse than us, but few that are better all around. We we have 50 different States and numerous Cities and over 10,000 Counties in which to move to find someplace to live comfortably with others who share our convictions. We do not need to abolish the US.

[Lord Dominator]

Your little essay would be better if it didn't attempt to make snide comments about major parties in ignorance of historical developments of them between the US Civil War and the present day.

[Narland]

Your little essay would be better if it didn't attempt to make snide comments about major parties in ignorance of historical developments of them between the US Civil War and the present day.

I misread your comment rewrote it.

My intent was not to be snide, but you are right. I am trying to be light-hearted because this amount of misunderstanding is soul crushing and very damaging. A false understanding of history worse than none at all.

[Theberstan]

Remind me again why this thread hasn’t been whisked away by the NS mods.

Have you reported the thread?

I got some history with the mods so I’m kinda afraid to.

[Theberstan]

The United States is supposed to be the land of freedom, justice and equality. At least, that is what we are all taught. Reality is far different as the USA is plague by racism, homophobia, class inequality and oppression of minorities. A lot of people defend this horror as patriotism. This is not surprising since America was literally founded by a bunch of old aristocrat who were racist slave owners. And America largely reflect this with its dark history and ongoing oppression of the people.

But today, people are starting to see this. People are demanding change but the reactionaries are defend racism as patriotism because of the constitution and the founding fathers. So my question to you is, would it be good idea to abolish the United States and replace it with a new country. A new country with no dark history, no racist founders, and a constitution that guarantee freedom and equality for all.

I think this is good idea. It can be a America for all people where racism is not patriotic, where there is no dark history and the first president is not a slave owner. It could be an example that can lead to a better world for all, I think.

What are your thought?

Normally I would say that you are trolling, but because of the state of the US failed education system my hunch is that they (US public education) has failed you spectacularly. I am saddened that this is not a satirical post. Nonetheless here are my thoughts:

Perhaps we can become Communist China. Oh wait, those of Han Chinese ethnic descent are throwing Uyghars into forced labor camps and have been commiting slow genocide on Tibet for decades. I wonder what minorities the US Army is rounding up in our cities and forcing them into forced labor camps. None?... huh. Not very racist of us to let anyone work and live anywhere they want regardless of their melanin content.

Maybe we can become Iran. Oh wait. LBGTQ are defenestrated, imprisoned, or forced into mental asylums. I wonder how may LBGTQ the US Marshall's Service are rounding up and tossing off of skyscrapers? None?... hmmm. Not very homophobic of us to let us march openly in the streets every Pride Day.

Maybe we can become North Korea. Oh wait. The great leader is obese in a land of people literally eating grass and bark in order to provide basic sustenance as they starve to death in their "classless" Utopian people's paradise. I wonder how many of America's underclass, and poor are required to restrict themselves to rations cards by the Department of Labor and told at the point of a gun that it a privilege to hunger for the Great Leader. There is no food on the commissary shelves and it is a crime against the state to eat anything not on the allotment (that the Party is too inept to be able to provide)? none?.. how about that? Hmmm. Not very elitist of us when we can all move to any state that still mostly recognizes the right to the pursuit of happiness and start their own own business, work as an employee, or take risks to improve their livelihood and become as fat and sassy as the economy will allow.

It is a crime in many countries to move, travel more than 20 miles, or even holiday without explicit State permission btw. Can you image having to go to an equivalent of the DMV to apply for a certificate leave your immediate jurisdiction? It boggles the mind that there are such petty people in charge of government out there.

Half of this country's States had been free, and half had held to chattel slavery. After 70 years as a nation one party rose up in the bloodiest war we have ever engaged in against in many cases their own family to abolish slavery and let every one have the same freedom and equality throughout the land. Which party was that I wonder? What party was it that fought like fury to keep their slaves? hmmm. Interesting.

Which half of America was it that passed the 13th, 14th and 14th Amendments against the howling of the vanquished other half to recognize the freed slaves the right to citizenship, equality under the Law, and the right to vote? Which half of America was it that resisted the Reconstruction and formed their own terrorist group garbed in bedsheets to keep person's of color from enjoying their new found freedom?

I could go on about who among us opposed the Jim Crow laws and who fought for them, and which half of America fought for the Civil Rights Acts from the 1876 until now. The point is each generation of Americans faced a societal ill and rose up to the challenge to fight against the evil doers in our midst. If we hadn't there would still be an America of half the States being free and half of the States holding to chattel slavery.

It has been illegal in the United States since the Civil War to discriminate by race, creed and color of skin. How about that? But some of the people in the Untied States (Democrats) failed to recognize it. So half of us (GOP) had to fight that Party to stop their evil every step of the way. At any time anyone who didn't like living under the Democratic Party could leave their oppressors and move to a State that from the beginning recognized abolition, suffrage, civil rights, freedom and equality under the law. Have your teachers even mentioned that?

My grandmother escaped from Oklahoma (no exaggeration) to live in a State (Wyoming, then later Idaho) that recognized her as a human being first, and not as a miscegenation half-breed that her birth state (run by Democrats) required to be put on her birth certificate.

America is based on an idea that all natural persons are created equal, that they all have inherent right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness; and that the sole purpose of the government is to secure those rights. Those who appose this (mostly Democrats, but many GOP in positions of power) fight this and support tyranny and despotism do not love their country and are thus are both unpatriots and unamerican -- viz., the are not Patriots and they are certainly Unamerican. Patriotism is loving your country enough to support it when it is right, and to change it when it is in the wrong. That is what every patriotic nation does. Unpatriotic nations just don't give a care.

I am happy to live in a country that started out giving suffrage to more of the general population than any other nation in modern history. Did your teachers mention that? Probably not.

I am happy to live in a country that has expanded suffrage from interested landed gentry to eventually all citizens regardless of race, creed, skin color, sex, creed, or national origin. That is the law of the land, and there are still countries where women cannot vote, cannot drive a car, and cannot be out alone in public without a familial escort.

I am happy to live in a country that fought a bloody civil war to end chattel slavery based on skin color. After all, race based on skin color is a political fiction created by demagogues to control weak minds. We are all one race -- human. Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with both American Law and Christianity, of which many Americans identify.

I am happy to live in a country where anybody of any ideology can freely declare a day of celebration and march in the streets should they so desire. There are many that will hunt you down and crush you if you do not cowtow to the State ideology.

I am happy to live in a country that went half-way across the world to end the menace of fascism.

I am happy to live in a country, and be part of a generation that was part of economically defeating Soviet Communism, and watch 10s of millions set free from the oppressive serfdom of Marxist oppression.

I am not so happy that we are no longer a free country regarding work and business, but Trump has given me hope that the right to pursiut of happiness unmolested by despotism (over-regulation) will once again be recognized by the petty ruling class amongst us. Most people have to register their business in a state that is not the state they live in order be self-employed, or run their own business. Employees have to move to where the jobs are, but this has always been the case. But in the freer States the wage to cost of living ratios are to many of us still worth moving to, in order to better our lives.

I could go on, but that is the preponderance to my thoughts on the issue. There are other countries that are worse than us, but few that are better all around, because we have 50 different States in which to move to find someplace to live comfortably.

I had a absolute blast reading this.

[Picairn]

I stopped reading that little essay once I reached the part about "the snide comments about major parties in ignorance of historical developments of them between the US Civil War and the present day" and the Trump support nonsense.

[Lord Dominator]

Your little essay would be better if it didn't attempt to make snide comments about major parties in ignorance of historical developments of them between the US Civil War and the present day.

Thank you. You are right, it would be better. But I am not being snide, I am being light-hearted because this amount of misunderstanding is soul crushing and very damaging. A false understanding of history worse than none at all. The blame is squarely on failure of the educators, not the student.

Right, and the notes about the prior positions of the Democratic party on slavery and such were truly needed for that

I stopped reading that little essay once I reached the part about "the snide comments about major parties in ignorance of historical developments of them between the US Civil War and the present day" and the Trump support nonsense.

Glad to be of assistance

Have you reported the thread?

I got some history with the mods so I’m kinda afraid to.

Your warning history shouldn't matter when reporting, unless you're making purely frivolous reports (which this presumably wouldn't be).

[Picairn]

Glad to be of assistance

Thank you.

Now, I believe this thread has served its purpose and it's no longer needed.

[Bombadil]

I don't really understand why people are so unwilling to engage with the idea, it's a perfectly valid discussion point.

It's a fact that the USA is founded on genocide and racism, it's a large part of its past. Yet the founding is revered as something almost holy, when really it's a bunch of white people setting up a country on land they've invaded with a class of people who are not counted. The Founding Fathers and the Constitution become almost static pillars to a point of being a thing that makes genuinely looking at change very difficult.

It's not to say other countries don't have a dark past, but we're talking about the US here as a discussion point.

The idea of saying 'we're going to formally reject the grounds and articles on which this nation was founded, and start anew with a fresh idea of America' is one of rebirth. It's not hiding history, it's acknowledging it, rejecting it and rebirthing the nation.

It's an idea, we know that the country is extremely partisan and divided and, handled correctly, it could be a means of healing those divisions by, as previously commented, removing money from elections, adjusting representation to be more fair to the population, putting some boundaries around the Supreme Court - I heard the idea of 18 year term limits with stacked replacement every two years - and doing it all in one go as a symbol of rejecting the iniquities of the past and setting out afresh.

Even globally, the US is increasingly seen as a place on a downward path, this would be to re-commit to certain ideals while rejecting others.

It's just an idea.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

The Founding Fathers and the Constitution become almost static pillars to a point of being a thing that makes genuinely looking at change very difficult.

This seems to me particularly insightful. There hasn't been an amendment in ages, and that was a rather trivial one.

There's an argument to be made that Incorporation of the constitution has made amendments almost impossible. The states didn't mind putting restrictions or even granting powers to Federal government, but now they know an amendment can apply to them too, they see amendments as a federal power grab.

[Sepulcrisur]

If you ask me, I think the United States should be divided into separate regions. I don’t mean that each state has to be its own independent country, what I’m saying is that each region should contain around 8 - 10 states. However, the United States doesn’t necessarily need to be abolished just because of its racism and dark past. Nevertheless, I support the idea of the United States being divided.

[Faniviace]

That was removed lol. Besides, that was a state law, not amendment

But it is in the constitution still and it allow slavery and taxing people.

You know what abolished slavery in America? The Emancipation Proclamation signed by Abraham Lincoln. Great guy. Also, the 3/5ths clause counted slaves as 3/5 of a person, not African Americans specifically even though they were the majority of if not all of American slaves. The 13th amendment effectively gutted it anyway.

If we're abolishing countries because of their racist history, we should be abolishing almost all countries off the face of the Earth. It's an idiotic principle that I think has been proven to not work from the short-lived CHAZ. Good luck getting rid of America in the first place, we have the most powerful military in the world.

[Bombadil]

The Founding Fathers and the Constitution become almost static pillars to a point of being a thing that makes genuinely looking at change very difficult.

This seems to me particularly insightful. There hasn't been an amendment in ages, and that was a rather trivial one.

There's an argument to be made that Incorporation of the constitution has made amendments almost impossible. The states didn't mind putting restrictions or even granting powers to Federal government, but now they know an amendment can apply to them too, they see amendments as a federal power grab.

Independent states in a Union was a great idea for its time, but times have changed. America as a country has to have a good degree of Federal powers. It's not to remove state powers, I think a degree of devolved governance is good, but it could be cleaned. I also think the Supreme Court needs clarifying, frankly for Nixon and Trump to have 7 nominations in essentially one term presidencies whereas Obama has 2 over the same period is silly, it causes it to become political.

There's lots of things, but essentially the past can become a form of belief that isn't questioned.

He said, "Mankind got it all wrong by takin' a good idea and building a belief structure out of it."
Bethany: So you're saying that having beliefs is a bad thing?
Rufus: I just think it's better to have an idea. You can change an idea; changing a belief is trickier. People die for it, people kill for it.

[Maroza]

The United States is holding a lot of debt. If it was abolished, creditors would seize most or all of its assets. National parks, military equipment, that sort of thing.

Not if we replace it with the glorious state of Octavia.

Darn beat me 2 it.

If you ask me, I think the United States should be divided into separate regions. I don’t mean that each state has to be its own independent country, what I’m saying is that each region should contain around 8 - 10 states. However, the United States doesn’t necessarily need to be abolished just because of its racism and dark past. Nevertheless, I support the idea of the United States being divided.

I dislike this idea. It reminds me of the breaking up of Germany after world war 2. Lets just force people to no longer be linked together because they are powerful when they see each other as the same people.

[Lord Dominator]

The Founding Fathers and the Constitution become almost static pillars to a point of being a thing that makes genuinely looking at change very difficult.

This seems to me particularly insightful. There hasn't been an amendment in ages, and that was a rather trivial one.

There's an argument to be made that Incorporation of the constitution has made amendments almost impossible. The states didn't mind putting restrictions or even granting powers to Federal government, but now they know an amendment can apply to them too, they see amendments as a federal power grab.

I don't exactly see incorporation of the amendments to be relevant as to why there hasn't been more of them - we haven't had an amendment passed in quite awhile that didn't already affect the states, and none of the proposals in the modern day that I'm aware of don't have ambiguity in terms of who they are to be applied to that causes incorporation as such.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Fuck yeah. Pack it in, we're giving this all back to the Cherokee.

[Disgraces]

Whatever, just don't name it "[...] of America". Also freedom is cringe