Is it time for Europe to unite?

[Latvijas Otra Republika]

Europe is not a monolith, it never was.

Nothing ever was until the first time it is.

It’s not a continent of a singular assimilated language, culture or ethnicity.

None of the countries within Europe, except maybe the microstates, are monoliths of a single language, culture, or ethnicity. And even if they were right now, that would eventually change, as languages, culture, and ethnicities always do.

The reigns of power would be placed in the West, all power wielded would be by the Germans or the French. The end result would be massacre and war.

I don't see why a united Europe would have to work like that.

Handing over power to an elite in Brussels brings no human benefit,

Is the problem that the elites with power over us are in Brussels and not some other city? Or that there are elites with power over us at all?

European politicians leave their national/regional positions after a scandal or not enough pay to go work there. Whole thing is meant to make a quick buck and rub shoulders with other EU coffee makers.

Yes, many governments are corrupt. It's something we should really get a handle on.

---

What people? All Europeans should be treated equally.

You tell me what people you are excluding when you talk about specific cultures being treated equally and properly.

Monarchs are unifying figures that work best with parliamentary systems of government and can use their royal powers to dismiss elected figures that are threatening to the democratic institutions of a united Europe. Monarchs should be protectors of democracy when the people are too charmed to realise their mistake.

Monarchs are embodiments of inequality that serve to highlight that some in the nation are born with incredible advantages and some are born with nothing. What use to a nation is a bejewelled crown when its people are hungry?

It’s been tried over and over again, as far as Teutoburg and the most recent Lebensraum. It’s satisfying knowing each time sovereignty and freedom has triumphed in the face of inescapable odds. That all people may live their lives not by the rules of those who have more wealth or a ‘better culture’.
The narrative that ethnic and cultural ‘change is inevitable’ is not so profound, Indo-European languages still hold on to their original words and cultures and languages have barley shifted from 1700s. If you want Europe to be a mixed Americanized vomit bucket then by all means hold on to that view, Though I rather enjoy traveling Poland and Germany and seeing the changes from place to place. While China has Mandarin and America has American, Europe dose not have a European and won’t have a European.

On what planet do you live on where Germany and France, probably the largest exporters and economies of Europe, with the most expenditure and population and economic centers, wouldn’t control Europe. They formed the EU from the start, to think somehow a federal state wouldn’t be just France and Germany bumming everyone else- that’s a bit mad.

[Heloin]

What counts as being native to the European continent?

I don't really want a government that's only going to treat people equally if they're members of some arbitrary "native European" group. That sounds like a bad idea. Let's just treat everyone equally.


We can elect people to do those things if we need them done. No need to pick one family and give them enormous wealth and power.

If the culture originally rose within Europe. To me, Europe ends at the Urals, Bosporous Strait and Strait of Gibraltar.

Cultural enclaves generally aren’t supported by me if they’re not native, sorry.

If anyone can be elected to such a position of power it’ll only attract the power hungry, the corrupt or the idealistic - the lattermost of which would never make it to power in the current world order.

That’d make the Hungarians non European.

[The Alma Mater]

On the issue of coronavirus recovery fund talks, I actually support the northern states here. Countries like Spain have horribly mismanaged the pandemic through gross incompetence and now they go to Europe to beg for money. Pathetic.

To be fair, the thing that upsets the "northern" countries is not the begging, but the adamant refusal of the "southern" countries to promise they will try to better themselves so that less begging will be needed in the future.

The southern countries then ofc strike back by pointing out many of the northern countries, especially the Netherlands, are taxhavens used by companies to not pay anything in the southern lands.

And then they fling poo at eachother.

[Aureumterra]

If the culture originally rose within Europe. To me, Europe ends at the Urals, Bosporous Strait and Strait of Gibraltar.

Cultural enclaves generally aren’t supported by me if they’re not native, sorry.

If anyone can be elected to such a position of power it’ll only attract the power hungry, the corrupt or the idealistic - the lattermost of which would never make it to power in the current world order.

That’d make the Hungarians non European.

Hungarians originated outside of Europe, but so did literally every European culture that speaks an Indo-European language

[Vivolkha]

When it comes to Spain's monarchy. I did hear a report mention that the old monarch has an undisclosed amount of money in Switzerland. Also, that it seems he liked to cheat on his wife. They say the Spanish press never really questioned him on those things. It seems they are in the monarchies pocket. The new monarchy is so far squeaky clean but they still mention that the press seems to be in there pocket.

The monarchy started out as popular, seen as the master of the transition to democracy and its protector after it thwarted a coup in 1981. Then it ruined its own image through public scandals, including multiple visits at hospital for stupid reasons, Juan Carlos's infamous sleep-inducing speeches, apparently cheating on his wife multiple times, happily going hunting while the economy of the country was a dumpster fire, several corruption scandals involving the royal family, and so on.

His successor, Felipe VI, isn't any better, with police squashing republican protests on the day of his crowning, and prioritizing keeping his own position in the face of declining popular support over anything else. After years of insisiting that the constitution should not be changed, the government did change it to keep the monarchy alive and permit his daughter to become queen. The lavish lifestyle that her now teenage daughter enjoys is a symbol of the inequality that monarchies inherently embody and another reason for its impopularity.

The Borbons have never been competent. That is why we kicked them out. Twice.

[Heloin]

That’d make the Hungarians non European.

Hungarians originated outside of Europe, but so did literally every European culture that speaks an Indo-European language

Everyone’s African at the end of the day.

[Vivolkha]

On the issue of coronavirus recovery fund talks, I actually support the northern states here. Countries like Spain have horribly mismanaged the pandemic through gross incompetence and now they go to Europe to beg for money. Pathetic.

To be fair, the thing that upsets the "northern" countries is not the begging, but the adamant refusal of the "southern" countries to promise they will try to better themselves so that less begging will be needed in the future.

The southern countries then ofc strike back by pointing out many of the northern countries, especially the Netherlands, are taxhavens used by companies to not pay anything in the southern lands.

And then they fling poo at eachother.

Who cares if some northern countries are tax havens. Better for them. The southern countries are poorly governed (namely Spain, Italy and Greece come to mind) and seem to lack the will and the competence to improve. It's frustrating, really.

That’d make the Hungarians non European.

Hungarians originated outside of Europe, but so did literally every European culture that speaks an Indo-European language

Hungarians are European now. Case closed.

[Heloin]

Hungarians originated outside of Europe, but so did literally every European culture that speaks an Indo-European language

Hungarians are European now. Case closed.

Are the Romani?

[Centrallonia]

When it comes to Spain's monarchy. I did hear a report mention that the old monarch has an undisclosed amount of money in Switzerland. Also, that it seems he liked to cheat on his wife. They say the Spanish press never really questioned him on those things. It seems they are in the monarchies pocket. The new monarchy is so far squeaky clean but they still mention that the press seems to be in there pocket.

Some members of a unified European monarchy would need to be kept in check, no doubt, they’re human after all. I just simply would be less supportive of a republican EU than one with a crown.

Spain's current monarchy is Bourbon. But for all intended purposes that is a foreign royal house. Not native to Spain. The Trastámara dynasty is the native royal house which built Spain which was a backwater. When there were no more Trastámara to take over the monarchy, the Hapsburgs and later the Bourbons came into the picture. At this point Spain was very rich and had a far flung empire. With some exceptions, both Hapsburg and Bourbons rulers thus used Spain has a cash cow. After all, they had other major interest in Europe. So if the Trastámara had managed to continue on, would Spain have been more stable. Would there even have been a civil war. Yes, the Trastámara like the first Portuguese royals had a connection to southern France but both nations were backwaters when these royal houses took over.

[Aureumterra]

Hungarians are European now. Case closed.

Are the Romani?

Why wouldn’t they be?

[Greed and Death]

"As long as the Germans are paying for it yes Europe should unite."
Some Greek Government Official.

"But do not let them dare suggest that solidarity is a two way street and ask us to manage our funds a little better so that they do not always have to pay the bill"

If you support austerity you are just a bad person

Some Greek Government Official.

[Sundiata]

Yes, but it's even more important that the world should unite.

Meanwhile, in reality...

Survival depends on hope, courage, and fidelity to what's right.

[Ifreann]

What counts as being native to the European continent?

I don't really want a government that's only going to treat people equally if they're members of some arbitrary "native European" group. That sounds like a bad idea. Let's just treat everyone equally.


We can elect people to do those things if we need them done. No need to pick one family and give them enormous wealth and power.

If the culture originally rose within Europe. To me, Europe ends at the Urals, Bosporous Strait and Strait of Gibraltar.

The cultures that first arose within Europe developed from the cultures of people that migrated into Europe. Given that, it seems nonsensical to mistreat people from whose culture will develop the European cultures of the future.

Cultural enclaves generally aren’t supported by me if they’re not native, sorry.

And I really don't think that people should be subjected to unequal and improper treatment just because you arbitrarily dislike their culture.

If anyone can be elected to such a position of power it’ll only attract the power hungry, the corrupt or the idealistic - the lattermost of which would never make it to power in the current world order.

But you support a parliamentary government. Will those positions of power not likewise attract the power hungry and corrupt? Whatever the solution to fighting corruption there can be applied to any other elected position.

[Heloin]

Are the Romani?

Why wouldn’t they be?

Someone’s European if they live in Europe is to broad for racists. But since they’ll want to exclude the Romani then they’ll have to exclude Hungarians which makes the point Europe for Europeans stupid.

[Neuer Deutsches Reich]

No, they have shown themselves to be idiots of a new class. I would never support it even if the Eu was competent. The UK was the first, many will follow. Eventually one of the original members will eave and that will be the official final death sentence.

[The Emerald Legion]

Europe can't get things together now. Why do you think them uniting together will be any different?

[Ifreann]

Nothing ever was until the first time it is.

None of the countries within Europe, except maybe the microstates, are monoliths of a single language, culture, or ethnicity. And even if they were right now, that would eventually change, as languages, culture, and ethnicities always do.

I don't see why a united Europe would have to work like that.

Is the problem that the elites with power over us are in Brussels and not some other city? Or that there are elites with power over us at all?

Yes, many governments are corrupt. It's something we should really get a handle on.

---

You tell me what people you are excluding when you talk about specific cultures being treated equally and properly.


Monarchs are embodiments of inequality that serve to highlight that some in the nation are born with incredible advantages and some are born with nothing. What use to a nation is a bejewelled crown when its people are hungry?

It’s been tried over and over again, as far as Teutoburg and the most recent Lebensraum. It’s satisfying knowing each time sovereignty and freedom has triumphed in the face of inescapable odds.

Provided we don't count all the times that European nations ceased to be sovereign. How many sovereign nations once existed in the nation we today call Germany? Or France? Or Italy? Or almost any European nation?

That all people may live their lives not by the rules of those who have more wealth or a ‘better culture’.

In which nation in Europe today do the rich not have more power than the poor?

The narrative that ethnic and cultural ‘change is inevitable’ is not so profound,

Of course it's not profound, it's just obviously true.

Indo-European languages still hold on to their original words and cultures and languages have barley shifted from 1700s.

How many languages once spoken in Europe have gone extinct in the last three hundred years? And how much of that specifically because of the actions of national governments?

If you want Europe to be a mixed Americanized vomit bucket then by all means hold on to that view, Though I rather enjoy traveling Poland and Germany and seeing the changes from place to place. While China has Mandarin and America has American, Europe dose not have a European and won’t have a European.

It might, it might not.

On what planet do you live on where Germany and France, probably the largest exporters and economies of Europe, with the most expenditure and population and economic centers, wouldn’t control Europe. They formed the EU from the start, to think somehow a federal state wouldn’t be just France and Germany bumming everyone else- that’s a bit mad.

I live on a planet in which a united Europe, if it ever does come about, will not necessarily come about today. Political and economic conditions can change, and can be made to change.

---

...it seems nonsensical to mistreat people from whose culture will develop the European cultures of the future. ...

Though, to be clear, I think it's nonsensical to mistreat anyone, ever.

[Ansarre]

Will this EU superstate crackdown on illegal migrants or continue to have open borders?

Europe doesn't have open external borders.

Europe is facing a lot of problems especially illegal immigrants so yes,i think the time is right for europe to unite

Everybody drink.

It's a valid thing to point out, actually. The lack of an EU navy and common EU border policy for external borders has been of significant detriment to our continental security and has exacerbated euroscepticism.

My opinion is that yes, Europe should unite into one large country. Now what countries are actually in Europe and which aren't, is another story entirely. (for example, would Iceland be included, or Russia? Would we even include Turkey?)

In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.

Europe is way too diverse to function in any sort of centralized manner without the interests of smaller, marginal countries being subverted in favour of those with more weight to throw around. Which is probably why pan-Europeanism is so popular among white nationalists who don't understand that "white" is not a nation and crypto-imperialists aiming to secure hegemony for their nation/faction over the rest of the European continent. The more centralized the EU gets, the less its going to function.

I disagree wholeheartedly. A united Europe would elevate our common heritages while working to actively preserve our individual cultures. The European Union already does a stellar job at preserving and promoting European cultures already. For more information click here.
As for pan-Europeanism among white nationalists... I wouldn't know anything about this since I'm not one I'm not looking to establish a nation-state but a federation of many peoples with shared geopolitical interests.

A part of me says it should, another says it shouldn’t. I fear a federated Europe would be detrimental to the preservation and independence of Europe’s multitude of cultures and peoples. The status and power of states like Germany and France have over the EU in its current form makes me fearful for them being favoured over, say, the Silesians, the Bretons, and so on. Only if every native culture was treated equally and properly, then yes.

The EU has done a stellar job at supporting efforts to promote and preserve minority languages, as well as all of the cultures of Europe. I do not have any reason to fear, as someone from three cultural minority backgrounds, that a unified EU would harm efforts to preserve and promote my cultures. In fact, I haven't heard anyone I've campaigned with point it out either.

Ideally, Europe should unite into a single monarchic polity not unlike a kind of reborn HRE (but not German-dominated). Crowns and thrones should be revived in order to cement ourselves strongly in our collective European heritage.

Well ya know, Otto von Habsburg was an enthusiastic supporter of Pan-Europeanism!

I would not be against the UK joining if a united Europe was to my liking. If nothing else it would further break Washington’s hold on global hegemony.

As a Briton who voted Conservative in 2019, I would love to see the UK rejoining the EU in future. But as it stands the UK is an opponent to further integration, so its in both our interests to be separate.

A united Europe needs to have a Palmerstonesque leadership, however. Russia and China aren’t threatened by fancy letters, there needs to be real fear of European retaliation against them for any transgression.

Indeed! Post-unification I think Europe should immediately step up her role on the world stage.

That would be like North and South America uniting into one country.
It’s stupid, I’m happy with the living standards in my nation, and I don’t want them to get worse because other more corrupt nations get mixed with mine.

This is an ignorant comment. Europe is already well integrated and outside of a few examples of ex-communist countries, there isn't that significant of a gap in living standards going from country to country as there is in the Americas.

Why can't a united Europe be better, independent, and free?

Europe is not a monolith, it never was. It’s not a continent of a singular assimilated language, culture or ethnicity. The reigns of power would be placed in the West, all power wielded would be by the Germans or the French. The end result would be massacre and war.
Handing over power to an elite in Brussels brings no human benefit, European politicians leave their national/regional positions after a scandal or not enough pay to go work there. Whole thing is meant to make a quick buck and rub shoulders with other EU coffee makers.

This is just extreme fearmongering. No human benefit? Membership in the EU and increased integration has brought SIGNIFICANT benefits to Latvia. Latvia joined in 2004 and GDP more than doubled in four years.

Conceptually sounds great. Timing is a little bad.
Also, where was the OP copied from, cause that's some interesting kerning you got going on there.

Copied from nowhere. I just prefer reading things in bigger font and I forgot to remove the [size] tags.

Are the Romani?

Yes.

Europe can't get things together now. Why do you think them uniting together will be any different?

You could say this about any country with an elected/non-patrimonial government.

[Dumb Ideologies]

There is a good case for military and security cooperation. On the other hand, I'd prefer that individual states maintained the capacity to produce sufficient food for their own populaces and that countries were allowed to freely support their own companies to maintain near-full employment.

The EU was a social democratic organisation but it has always been an elite project and as such it has been badly impacted by the power of lobbyists and advocates for external free trade. Despite the principle of subsidiarity, it tends to take control of more and more things as part of the inertia of ever-closer union favouring a "European solution" to every problem it can find.

I am torn on it. I think some degree of European cooperation is required to counterbalance the US/China rivalry but the EU in my opinion is federalising too much on things it shouldn't and not enough on things it should.

The UK leaving it entirely doesn't seem massively smart in retrospect in terms of economics or influence. Perhaps it could have been done better if properly planned rather than hoping to win the referendum then years of panicking, but we are where we are. Reforming it also seems very difficult due to its labyrinthine nature, and outright collapse could lead to the negotiating power of other big countries and blocs fucking people over more than the deals that the Eurocrats have done.

Frankly, I find it very hard to come up with a coherent position on the thing.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I know vass. How can anyone be so immoral to disagree with you on immigration.

Who said anything about morality rather than y'all being so fucking predictable?

You are also predictable.

[Ifreann]

Who said anything about morality rather than y'all being so fucking predictable?

You are also predictable.

Useful contribution.

[Dumb Ideologies]

You are also predictable.

Useful contribution.

This snark-a-go-round is making me dizzy how do I get off.

[Vivolkha]

In my personal opinion? A future where Russia moves away from the Putin regime and towards liberal democracy would be one where I would be supportive of its membership in the European Union - provided it agrees to accept further integration. Turkey under no circumstances should be included in the European Union. Iceland maybe, if it wanted to be a member.

Russia includes a huge territory in Asia and many different ethnic groups. Point being, even though I would also like a democratic Russia in the EU, many Russians might not be as supportive.

Why not Turkey? Provided Erdogan is gone, obviously, and the country is stabilized and democratized.

As far as I know most people in Iceland do not want to join the EU.

[Greed and Death]

Europe can't get things together now. Why do you think them uniting together will be any different?

Because Germany can pay for more stuff.

[Ethel mermania]

As I have said before, I think the common market was a really good idea and very helpful in integrating and strengthening the European community.

I think the EU is political overreach as I dont think there is a european consensus on how to go about governing things. The national interest of Germany is very different that that of greece or Poland. So as to further consolidating political power, I think it's a bad idea.