UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

But she was a child when she went to join them. Children do stupid shit, Is there really a need to make her stateless for life because she was a stupid 15 year old.

I never joined a terrorist organisation when I was 15.

Most 15 year olds don't.

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?

[The Blaatschapen]

I never joined a terrorist organisation when I was 15.

Most 15 year olds don't.

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?

Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?

Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.

[Greed and Death]

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?

Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

Maybe we just shouldn't let kids use the computer then.

[Hirota]

Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.

We're not Americans. My first thought was of Jemima Puddle Duck.

I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?!

[Gormwood]

An international forum where American issues are openly discussed- especially racial matters as of recent times, and especially by Ostro in regards to gender. But everyone suddenly wants to feign provinciality to pile on with the slams and laughs. Fine.

[Hirota]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally find slams and laughs via classical literary works always seem far more rewarding than the cheap digs. You know the sort, the ones who look at names and use them as cheap zingers for the purposes of baiting. Awful folks.

I remember one time when my good friend Tarquin pulled off a right zinger by using the flopsy bunnies to refer to a bunch of drunken reprobates we saw hanging outside the job center. It was most delightful wot wot.

---

Anyhoo, back to less silly matters.

Statement has come out regarding Russian interference!

This wouldn't have been covered in the report that we are waiting for any day now, but suggests maybe there is a pattern of sustained behaviour by Russia?

[Greed and Death]

Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.

Don’t ask me, blame the government and national curriculum that names them as British values.

And this is why we in America avoid a national curriculum just thinly veiled nationalism disguised as values that no one knows what the heck the government means. But the values must be obeyed or you are othered.

[CoraSpia]

Then 'the community' can deal with it. It is never acceptable to strip someone of citizenship and leave them to rot because you can't find something to charge them with, nor should we go back to the days of state-sanctioned murder.

Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me. "Don't piss off literally everyone and then cry about the law protecting you from their vengeance" is a rule that our ruling classes have internalized (though seem to be forgetting), it applies here too.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

[Gormwood]

Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me. "Don't piss off literally everyone and then cry about the law protecting you from their vengeance" is a rule that our ruling classes have internalized (though seem to be forgetting), it applies here too.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?

[CoraSpia]

Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.

Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.

[The Blaatschapen]

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?

Australia seems pretty fine to me

[Hrythingland]

Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.

Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.

Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

If your useless waste of land that's called a golf course cuts somebody's water off it deserves to be bulldozed by the State. With dynamite if necessary.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.

Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.

Actively aiding the ISIS regime should put one beyond the realm of rehabilitation attempts. She does not deserve another chance. The trouble is that the lack of the death penalty means we will not be able to eliminate her, and I'm sure lobbying groups will pressure for her to be given that undeserved second chance.

But that is our problem I think. She was British until she decided not to be, and it's wrong to leave unwanted litter behind on someone else's territory even if we don't have proper disposal facilities, so to speak.

[Fartsniffage]

Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.

Actively aiding the ISIS regime should put one beyond the realm of rehabilitation attempts. She does not deserve another chance. The trouble is that the lack of the death penalty means we will not be able to eliminate her, and I'm sure lobbying groups will pressure for her to be given that undeserved second chance.

But that is our problem I think, it's wrong to leave unwanted litter behind on someone else's territory even if we don't have proper disposal facilities, so to speak.

As I recall, Syria has some pretty strict policies around litter.

[Chan Island]

We're not Americans. My first thought was of Jemima Puddle Duck.

I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?!

They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?

On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.

[Ifreann]

I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?!

They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?

On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.

I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.

[Gormwood]

They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.



On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.

I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.

[Fartsniffage]

I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.

Article 8
Contracting States shall not deprive people of their nationality so as to render them stateless. (Exceptions: where otherwise provided in the Convention; where nationality has been acquired by misrepresentation or fraud; disloyalty to the Contracting State).

[Agarntrop]

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.

Article 8
Contracting States shall not deprive people of their nationality so as to render them stateless. (Exceptions: where otherwise provided in the Convention; where nationality has been acquired by misrepresentation or fraud; disloyalty to the Contracting State).

[Fartsniffage]

Why did you think I quoted that Article and not any of the others?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

:roll:

You know... convict her in a court of law and deprive the passport that way as part of a punishment package. Doing it because lol why not is shit PRC pulls.

[Ifreann]

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.

Article 8
Contracting States shall not deprive people of their nationality so as to render them stateless. (Exceptions: where otherwise provided in the Convention; where nationality has been acquired by misrepresentation or fraud; disloyalty to the Contracting State).

I should have anticipated an "Unless They're A Bad'Un" clause.

[Gormwood]

You know... convict her in a court of law and deprive the passport that way as part of a punishment package. Doing because lol why not is shit PRC pulls.

Also, terrorists who run over people in vans, slice open a soldier's neck or bomb concerts don't get their citizenships revoked despite flagrant disloyalty.