[PASSED] Access to Abortion

[Picairn]

"Ambassador at this point your argument has been rejected as a made-up scenario several times. Why should we address something that needs such contortions, such a tortured reading of the text, to ever be reality? If your lawyers want to implement this resolution in the least cost-efficient manner possible, I cannot stop you, but do not pretend it is because of the text. That is on you."

"Ambassador, a large part of my arguments remains unaddressed at this point, such as travel subsidies and free rides for the rich. The delegate from Separatist Peoples mocked them by downplaying the issue, while Godular thought he could solve this problem by replicating resources over and over. Unbeknownst to him, he just effectively caused a deflationary spiral by wiping out supply with unlimited resources. Nonetheless, there are no clauses banning rich people from using taxpayer and WA money to get an abortion, and we consider that horrendous. As for our lawyers, their job is to literally find holes within laws to prevent abuses and contortions. They help strengthening the laws by pointing out loopholes and I do not see any flaws with that.

But enough. I am tired of incessant nonsensical misrepresentations and mockery of my arguments, from Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Godular, Separatist Peoples and you. 1 vs 4 is really an uphill battle, and it seems that no reason can penetrate a wall of ignorant extremism. So we will still comply to this proposal after it is passed, albeit with some difficulties even though we have voted Against. Good day to you, Ambassador, I hope you will find comfort in this Festering Snakepit. As for me, I will go on vacation for a few days, drinking wine on a beach."

[Ardiveds]

"Well no use pretending like this could fail anymore. We really hoped the government could avoid spending taxpayer money on making a nonessential service like abortion free. Atleast our moral concerns of having to kill viable foetuses was unfounded. Well, time to increase a few taxes."

[Godular]

"Ambassador at this point your argument has been rejected as a made-up scenario several times. Why should we address something that needs such contortions, such a tortured reading of the text, to ever be reality? If your lawyers want to implement this resolution in the least cost-efficient manner possible, I cannot stop you, but do not pretend it is because of the text. That is on you."

"Ambassador, a large part of my arguments remains unaddressed at this point, such as travel subsidies and free rides for the rich. The delegate from Separatist Peoples mocked them by downplaying the issue, while Godular thought he could solve this problem by replicating resources over and over. Unbeknownst to him, he just effectively caused a deflationary spiral by wiping out supply with unlimited resources. Nonetheless, there are no clauses banning rich people from using taxpayer and WA money to get an abortion, and we consider that horrendous. As for our lawyers, their job is to literally find holes within laws to prevent abuses and contortions. They help strengthening the laws by pointing out loopholes and I do not see any flaws with that.

But enough. I am tired of incessant nonsensical misrepresentations and mockery of my arguments, from Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Godular, Separatist Peoples and you. 1 vs 4 is really an uphill battle, and it seems that no reason can penetrate a wall of ignorant extremism. So we will still comply to this proposal after it is passed, albeit with some difficulties even though we have voted Against. Good day to you, Ambassador, I hope you will find comfort in this Festering Snakepit. As for me, I will go on vacation for a few days, drinking wine on a beach."

"Complaining just to complain confirmed. I was fully cognizant of whatever market effects might result from my requisition process. The point was that there are SUBSTANTIAL resources being put into the General Fund, and that it is folly to presume that they would be appropriated in a substandard manner. We are not mocking your objections, ambassador, we are indicating to you --repeatedly-- that your objections have already been accounted for in ways that we would otherwise have thought need not be spoken. At this juncture we must conclude that you are simply making significant efforts to be contrarian as a categorical imperative."

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ambassador, a large part of my arguments remains unaddressed at this point, such as travel subsidies and free rides for the rich. The delegate from Separatist Peoples mocked them by downplaying the issue, while Godular thought he could solve this problem by replicating resources over and over. Unbeknownst to him, he just effectively caused a deflationary spiral by wiping out supply with unlimited resources. Nonetheless, there are no clauses banning rich people from using taxpayer and WA money to get an abortion, and we consider that horrendous. As for our lawyers, their job is to literally find holes within laws to prevent abuses and contortions. They help strengthening the laws by pointing out loopholes and I do not see any flaws with that.

But enough. I am tired of incessant nonsensical misrepresentations and mockery of my arguments, from Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Godular, Separatist Peoples and you. 1 vs 4 is really an uphill battle, and it seems that no reason can penetrate a wall of ignorant extremism. So we will still comply to this proposal after it is passed, albeit with some difficulties even though we have voted Against. Good day to you, Ambassador, I hope you will find comfort in this Festering Snakepit. As for me, I will go on vacation for a few days, drinking wine on a beach."

"Complaining just to complain confirmed."

"It was inevitable, really."

[Picairn]

"Complaining just to complain confirmed... At this juncture we must conclude that you are simply making significant efforts to be contrarian as a categorical imperative."

"People are entitled to their delusions, but not facts."

[La Xinga]

"Ambassador at this point your argument has been rejected as a made-up scenario several times. Why should we address something that needs such contortions, such a tortured reading of the text, to ever be reality? If your lawyers want to implement this resolution in the least cost-efficient manner possible, I cannot stop you, but do not pretend it is because of the text. That is on you."

"Ambassador, a large part of my arguments remains unaddressed at this point, such as travel subsidies and free rides for the rich. The delegate from Separatist Peoples mocked them by downplaying the issue, while Godular thought he could solve this problem by replicating resources over and over. Unbeknownst to him, he just effectively caused a deflationary spiral by wiping out supply with unlimited resources. Nonetheless, there are no clauses banning rich people from using taxpayer and WA money to get an abortion, and we consider that horrendous. As for our lawyers, their job is to literally find holes within laws to prevent abuses and contortions. They help strengthening the laws by pointing out loopholes and I do not see any flaws with that.

But enough. I am tired of incessant nonsensical misrepresentations and mockery of my arguments, from Austria-Bohemia-Hungary, Godular, Separatist Peoples and you. 1 vs 4 is really an uphill battle, and it seems that no reason can penetrate a wall of ignorant extremism. So we will still comply to this proposal after it is passed, albeit with some difficulties even though we have voted Against. Good day to you, Ambassador, I hope you will find comfort in this Festering Snakepit. As for me, I will go on vacation for a few days, drinking wine on a beach."

OOC: I argued with more than just 1 vs 4. Indeed, it is hard. Sometimes so much that I need to spoiler my posts because there are too many posts to respond to. Yet I somehow manage.

[Godular]

"Complaining just to complain confirmed... At this juncture we must conclude that you are simply making significant efforts to be contrarian as a categorical imperative."

"People are entitled to their delusions, but not facts."

"Indeed, which is why we're making such an effort to educate you on the matter."

[Picairn]

"Indeed, which is why we're making such an effort to educate you on the matter."

"The effort by our side has fallen on deaf ears, however. Ignorant extremism takes more than a generation to destroy."

[Godular]

"Indeed, which is why we're making such an effort to educate you on the matter."

"The effort by our side has fallen on deaf ears, however. Ignorant extremism takes more than a generation to destroy."

"If you wished to simply express that you were opposed to this legislation, I'm sure you will note that many have done so. As it stands, whether your population agrees with the legislation or not is of little concern to us. We're not FORCING them to have abortions, this legislation simply ensures that if someone wishes to get an abortion they are able to do so in the most conducive manner. You can enact any number of welfare and educational reforms to assist in minimizing the chance that somebody will feel such services as necessary, and you'll find those measures will pay for themselves many times over in the long run. This legislation is however not dedicated to removing any extant preconceptions and extremism among the population of your people or any people."

[Picairn]

"You can enact any number of welfare and educational reforms to assist in minimizing the chance that somebody will feel such services as necessary, and you'll find those measures will pay for themselves many times over in the long run."

"What an irony, since paying 100% of all abortion costs right now would require us to freeze all spending increases to prevent an abrupt explosion in spending. Maybe in the next fiscal year and we will revisit them."

This legislation is however not dedicated to removing any extant preconceptions and extremism among the population of your people or any people."

"It sure didn't, especially when I witnessed a record turnout of ignorant extremism against my arguments".

[Godular]

"You can enact any number of welfare and educational reforms to assist in minimizing the chance that somebody will feel such services as necessary, and you'll find those measures will pay for themselves many times over in the long run."

"What an irony, since paying 100% of all abortion costs right now would require us to freeze all spending increases to prevent an abrupt explosion in spending. Maybe in the next fiscal year and we will revisit them."

"No, it would not. Unless of course you are implying that the instant you enact these reforms pregnant people will swarm the abortion clinics like a tyranid swarm on a world made entirely of ham sandwiches. If such is indeed the case, one might suggest that you've bigger problems."

This legislation is however not dedicated to removing any extant preconceptions and extremism among the population of your people or any people."

"It sure didn't, especially when I witnessed a record turnout of ignorant extremism against my arguments".

"Your arguments were not in good faith. We have advised you repeatedly that these reforms will pay for themselves in the long run, and if you need any assistance in enacting these reforms then there are resources to aid you in the doing. You, in turn, keep trying to cast doubt on the assembly's capacity to do exactly that without cause to do so. That is ignorance, if ever there were an example of such."

[Picairn]

"Your arguments were not in good faith. We have advised you repeatedly that these reforms will pay for themselves in the long run, and if you need any assistance in enacting these reforms then there are resources to aid you in the doing. You, in turn, keep trying to cast doubt on the assembly's capacity to do exactly that without cause to do so. That is ignorance, if ever there were an example of such."

"Resources to aid? Like your suggested plan of resources replication, which will definitely lead to a deflationary spiral? Good faith? As in how you redefined my arguments as "complains for a categorical imperative"? That's sophistry. That's (just a part of) ignorant extremism. Not to mention the mockery and misrepresentations from other delegates. One was so bold (and foolish) to assume that my nation has a PPP of less than $2/person."

[Godular]

"Your arguments were not in good faith. We have advised you repeatedly that these reforms will pay for themselves in the long run, and if you need any assistance in enacting these reforms then there are resources to aid you in the doing. You, in turn, keep trying to cast doubt on the assembly's capacity to do exactly that without cause to do so. That is ignorance, if ever there were an example of such."

"Resources to aid? Like your suggested plan of resources replication, which will definitely lead to a deflationary spiral? Good faith? As in how you redefined my arguments as "complains for a categorical imperative"? That's sophistry. That's (just a part of) ignorant extremism. Not to mention the mockery and misrepresentations from other delegates. One was so bold (and foolish) to assume that my nation has a PPP of less than $2/person."

"Yes. Exactly all that. You wanted an idea of the resources the WA could bring to bear, and I gave an example. You continue to argue about how X cannot be done or Y defies the laws of physics or Z is infeasible in an association where there is a talking car frequenting the bar and several of the ambassadors are ACTUAL gods. Any sophistry here is purely on your own part, I ASSURE you."

[Picairn]

"Yes. Exactly all that. You wanted an idea of the resources the WA could bring to bear, and I gave an example. You continue to argue about how X cannot be done or Y defies the laws of physics or Z is infeasible in an association where there is a talking car frequenting the bar and several of the ambassadors are ACTUAL gods. Any sophistry here is purely on your own part, I ASSURE you."

"Thank you, but I prefer options that don't crash an economy in a deflationary spiral. As for the sophistry, it is hilarious to see you projecting yourself into me."

[Godular]

"Yes. Exactly all that. You wanted an idea of the resources the WA could bring to bear, and I gave an example. You continue to argue about how X cannot be done or Y defies the laws of physics or Z is infeasible in an association where there is a talking car frequenting the bar and several of the ambassadors are ACTUAL gods. Any sophistry here is purely on your own part, I ASSURE you."

"Thank you, but I prefer options that don't crash an economy in a deflationary spiral. As for the sophistry, it is hilarious to see you projecting yourself into me."

"The funny thing about projection is that the person claiming it is most often the one guilty of it. I'm simply pointing out that all of your complaints have been repeatedly addressed, and you're getting offended over it. The universe is enormous and full of wonders, many of which are present in this very chamber, and a great deal that you would consider to be impossible is in point of fact very much possible. Ensuring that this resolution is accounted for in the most expeditious and painless manner is a feat of astounding triviality compared to what many members of this assembly are capable of doing. Yet here you remain, complaining.

"Did you not say you were planning on being on a beach about now?"

[Picairn]

"The funny thing about projection is that the person claiming it is most often the one guilty of it. I'm simply pointing out that all of your complaints have been repeatedly addressed, and you're getting offended over it. The universe is enormous and full of wonders, many of which are present in this very chamber, and a great deal that you would consider to be impossible is in point of fact very much possible. Ensuring that this resolution is accounted for in the most expeditious and painless manner is a feat of astounding triviality compared to what many members of this assembly are capable of doing. Yet here you remain, complaining.

"Did you not say you were planning on being on a beach about now?"

"The person who uttered that rubbish about projection haven't seen themself in the mirror. Even the universe, which does have many incredible wonders, must obey the respective laws of different and diverse worlds, otherwise it risks destabilizing them and disrupting order. My world is no different, and neither do others'. Not all worlds are a mess of anarchy with zero laws, where stuff can appear and disappear out of thin air at random. Anyhow, saying that I'm "complaining" is rich, Ambassador, coming from a person who consistently try to reply to every single comment of mine in return, as if you were competing to have the last word.

Anyhow, I'll go. See you much later."

[Godular]

"The funny thing about projection is that the person claiming it is most often the one guilty of it. I'm simply pointing out that all of your complaints have been repeatedly addressed, and you're getting offended over it. The universe is enormous and full of wonders, many of which are present in this very chamber, and a great deal that you would consider to be impossible is in point of fact very much possible. Ensuring that this resolution is accounted for in the most expeditious and painless manner is a feat of astounding triviality compared to what many members of this assembly are capable of doing. Yet here you remain, complaining.

"Did you not say you were planning on being on a beach about now?"

"The person who uttered that rubbish about projection haven't seen themself in the mirror. Even the universe, which does have many incredible wonders, must obey the respective laws of different and diverse worlds, otherwise it risks destabilizing them and disrupting order. My world is no different, and neither do others'. Not all worlds are a mess of anarchy with zero laws, where stuff can appear and disappear out of thin air at random."

"And yet here you stand, in a world where exactly those things are QUITE possible. At this juncture, the best we can say is that if implementation of this resolution is a problem for you, it is because you are making it one."

Anyhow, saying that I'm "complaining" is rich, Ambassador, coming from a person who consistently try to reply to every single comment of mine in return, as if you were competing to have the last word."

"This is a chamber for discussion. People talk."

"Anyhow, I'll go. See you much later."

"Enjoy the beach! Just remember, if you see a beached whale, check first to see whether it is an ambassador sunbathing before you report it."

[Riverpost]

"Yes. Exactly all that. You wanted an idea of the resources the WA could bring to bear, and I gave an example. You continue to argue about how X cannot be done or Y defies the laws of physics or Z is infeasible in an association where there is a talking car frequenting the bar and several of the ambassadors are ACTUAL gods. Any sophistry here is purely on your own part, I ASSURE you."

"Thank you, but I prefer options that don't crash an economy in a deflationary spiral. As for the sophistry, it is hilarious to see you projecting yourself into me."

OOC: If we're worried about the WA ruining the economy, I think it's kind of a bit late to ask that in an RP sense, though there's nothing to suggest it with the aforementioned 'bottomless' spending and revenue of the international body doing nothing to most (if any) factbooks across NationStates. Unless you'd like to repeal a money-sucking HQ, there's little use questioning financial plausibility if all us nations comply with not following it whatsoever. We already are required to have national offices for the WA, so you'd have nothing stopping you from trying to repeal the center of non-political entertainment to this body if all our countries are hermit kingdoms by the sophistry of our delegations.

Unless it's all in good fun, then proceed. Sophistry, sophistry, sophistry, it's really all there is to politics, and we're only all following the playbook. That subway thing, though? That's poor taste and really breaking out of the ICness of all this.

But otherwise, it's really a dead-end. If this is all to immerse random passer-by nations, there's quite a lot of barking up trunks and very little dialogue. Logic isn't NationStates. Pretending there is would be an affront to the incredibly creative (and probably bored) minds of all who play, which come not to stringently recreate true and honest governorship. There are some who may try that, but pretending to follow some universal lawbook is technobabble; the universe is stranger and more complex than we can fathom in ways that most of us have no business dictating for, so much that there is never a nation that will truly feel or act like it should IRL here on this website. But that's what makes it fun and why many of us play, or otherwise we'd go get a real job and run an actual country ourselves, economy and all.

[New Jewlan]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkROwZVWUAA ... ame=medium

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

OOC: You would do very well not insulting the victims of enemies of mankind.

[New Jewlan]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

OOC: You would do very well not insulting the victims of enemies of mankind.

Elaborate.

[Riverpost]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

OOC: You would do very well not insulting the victims of enemies of mankind.

Neither sides mean bad in all this, believe me.

Both are going for what values they deem to be right and just, and power to them.

Suggesting they inherently mean otherwise is true and proper sophistry, if to use Picairn's vocabulary. As much as we may disagree, civil discussion is key to what builds progress. It cannot exist, though, if it is forgotten that we are humans who debate this (for and against). To suggest anybody here means ill will or to lie before us, is simply not true 9 times out of 10.

New Jewlan, from what I can observe, is certainly within that 9.

(I, for one, can see the connection he makes quite clearly. Knowing family who were affected by the Holocaust, I can strongly state that there's no insult in his statement. If anything, it brings attention to those horrific events, and allows questions into how this issue can compare in some ways to it.)

[Kenmoria]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkROwZVWUAA ... ame=medium

(OOC: I don’t think these circumstances are comparable. Jewish people and slaves are functionally no different to non-Jews and non-slaves. Foetuses, on the other hand, have several differences to adults. More importantly, foetuses live inside someone’s body, which is a trait unique to them among humans.

It is also, as Austria-Bohemia-Hungary said, disrespectful to Holocaust victims to diminish their suffering by comparing it to abortion. It would be better if any future arguments you make do not use this comparison.)

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

OOC: Comparing the cessation of life support to a being who feels, thinks and does nothing to gassing Jews is not good faith.

[Ardiveds]

I, for one, am against the murder of the unborn. A woman says that a baby is her property; slave traders treated slaves the same way, and Jews were treated the same way by the Nazis.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CkROwZVWUAA ... ame=medium

"Ambassador, the jews weren't physcially joined and obtaining nutrition from nazi bodies, same goes for the slavers and slaves... so how exactly you could compare the three is beyond me."