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Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

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Salus Maior
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:59 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
If the medical sector, whose job it is to provide medical supplies and assistance in society, is not effectively doing that job, then it's only reasonable to change things so that they will do their job.

The medical sector's job in the US is to turn a profit. All else is secondary. Even so, it would be wrong to burn down a private hospital.


I disagree. The priority is to fulfill a social need, not to stuff already well-off pockets.

If profit gets in the way of fulfilling a social need, then another solution has to be found.

Sure, it would be bad to burn down a hospital.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:37 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:At fighting it, yes.

Although it's fun to believe in the converging of timelines, that has happened in none of them.

Read less von Mises propaganda, mate.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:38 am

Kowani wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
One republican does not make a bipartisan committee. It makes tokenism so you can claim bipartisan to those not paying attention.

2 republicans and an independent.
And again, their findings are irrelevant. This isn't science, it's politics hidden in a labcoat.

…It is science, and there’s a decent amount of statistical analysis, but that would require that you read the report.

Northern Davincia wrote:They have a right not to sell, and it's still not justification for arson.

Seems pretty justified to me.


No. One Republican, and a few who don't have any public affiliation but nonetheless work in the fields of grievance studies.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:49 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:History is too complicated to simply revere Washington, so instead name parts of the country after him and build monuments to him everywhere and build a five hundred foot obelisk in his memory. Nuance!


We shouldn't pretend he's some sort of saint, but without the efforts Washington went to, the Republic likely would not have survived its infancy. And, comparatively, he was also very tolerant and supportive of American minority groups such as Catholics and Jews and assured them their freedom. He's also mostly responsible for setting up a Presidency with limited powers and terms.

Washington at his best exemplifies the best of what an American president should be in my opinion; insofar as he treated the position with an incredible amount of respect and wasn't a power-monger, and sought to use it in service to the country.

As we can see from this thread, some people do just want to pretend he's some sort of saint.
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Picairn
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Postby Picairn » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:44 am

Kowani wrote:Read less von Mises propaganda, mate.

Is the Great Purge "von Mises propaganda" now?
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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:49 am

Purpelia wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:As if each and every person who supports statues coming down is a communist.

No, but they are idiots. And there is a reasonable overlap between the two to the point where you could be forgiven for confusing them.


Purpelia, given your history, take a *** 1-day ban for trolling ***. Note that this ban applies to you the player and not just this nation. Referring to groups of people as idiots is against forum rules.
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Stylan
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Postby Stylan » Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:59 am

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
That's pretty sad. "We lost, but at least we put up a fight. Shame about all the statues that will be destroyed"

I also support other tactics if the Supreme Court sides with communists. Ones I wouldn't share on this site because of this.

>The supreme court sides with communists

I assume you're saying that because some of the people who took down statues are communists, and the Supreme Court sides (?) with them, that's a monstrosity.

You understand by that logic the Supreme Court side with Nazis right?
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:09 am

Kowani wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I had figured the socialist would be more acquainted with tyranny than anyone.

At fighting it, yes.

You don't even believe in the concept of rights, lol.

Stylan wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:I also support other tactics if the Supreme Court sides with communists. Ones I wouldn't share on this site because of this.

>The supreme court sides with communists

I assume you're saying that because some of the people who took down statues are communists, and the Supreme Court sides (?) with them, that's a monstrosity.

You understand by that logic the Supreme Court side with Nazis right?

I'm sure the group that wants to keep the statues has less Nazis in it percentage wise than the group that wants to tear them down has communists.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:23 am

Somehow I feel like I should read Eco's Ur-Fascism again.
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Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
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Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:29 am

This is a great disrespect to the founder leader and Thomas Jefferson is my distant relative
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:32 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Kowani wrote:2 republicans and an independent.

…It is science, and there’s a decent amount of statistical analysis, but that would require that you read the report.


Seems pretty justified to me.


No. One Republican, and a few who don't have any public affiliation but nonetheless work in the fields of grievance studies.

Sigh. At the time of writing the report, the committee had 4 lawyers, 1 judge, 1 “grievance studies” activist and the democratic chair.

But try harder.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 am

Picairn wrote:
Kowani wrote:Read less von Mises propaganda, mate.

Is the Great Purge "von Mises propaganda" now?

Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Kowani wrote:At fighting it, yes.

You don't even believe in the concept of rights, lol.

That what I say is unpalatable does not make it any less true.
Spanish Atheist.
“The rocks were covered with blackbirds and there were the Geirfugles ... They walked slowly. Jón Brandsson crept up with his arms open. The bird that Jón got went into a corner but mine was going to the edge of the cliff. It walked like a man ... but moved its feet quickly. [I] caught it close to the edge – a precipice many fathoms deep. Its wings lay close to the sides – not hanging out. I took him by the neck and he flapped his wings. He made no cry. I strangled him.

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:58 am

Kowani wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
No. One Republican, and a few who don't have any public affiliation but nonetheless work in the fields of grievance studies.

Sigh. At the time of writing the report, the committee had 4 lawyers, 1 judge, 1 “grievance studies” activist and the democratic chair.

But try harder.


Let's not pretend I didn't look up each of the writers. :roll:
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The Reformed American Republic
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Postby The Reformed American Republic » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:18 am

Kowani wrote:
Picairn wrote:Is the Great Purge "von Mises propaganda" now?

Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

The Reformed American Republic wrote:You don't even believe in the concept of rights, lol.

That what I say is unpalatable does not make it any less true.

Don't pretend you have a concept of tyranny with such ideas, because you don't. Unless of course you de facto have a concept of rights but are just trying to be edgy.

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Northern Davincia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:25 am

Kowani wrote:
Picairn wrote:Is the Great Purge "von Mises propaganda" now?

Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

This does not explain why bad actors among the far left come to power with greater frequency than "good" ones.
Perhaps there is something unique to communism that permits such horrors.
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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:32 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Kowani wrote:Sigh. At the time of writing the report, the committee had 4 lawyers, 1 judge, 1 “grievance studies” activist and the democratic chair.

But try harder.


Let's not pretend I didn't look up each of the writers. :roll:

Clearly, you did not, since only one (K. Narasaki) of them seems to be in any way related to “grievance studies.”

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Kowani wrote:Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.


That what I say is unpalatable does not make it any less true.

Don't pretend you have a concept of tyranny with such ideas, because you don't. Unless of course you de facto have a concept of rights but are just trying to be edgy.

I mean, if you exclusively define tyranny as “violation of rights”, then sure, but such a definition is overly reductive.

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

This does not explain why bad actors among the far left come to power with greater frequency than "good" ones.
Perhaps there is something unique to communism that permits such horrors.

I would argue that most “communist” revolutions are brought about in countries that were already poor, and tend to be more susceptible to strongmen.
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“The rocks were covered with blackbirds and there were the Geirfugles ... They walked slowly. Jón Brandsson crept up with his arms open. The bird that Jón got went into a corner but mine was going to the edge of the cliff. It walked like a man ... but moved its feet quickly. [I] caught it close to the edge – a precipice many fathoms deep. Its wings lay close to the sides – not hanging out. I took him by the neck and he flapped his wings. He made no cry. I strangled him.

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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:43 am

Kowani wrote:I would argue that most “communist” revolutions are brought about in countries that were already poor, and tend to be more susceptible to strongmen.

I would argue that hierarchies are an inescapable fact of living in a society with a high population, and attempts to undo the hierarchy are bound to fail.
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:45 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kowani wrote:Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

This does not explain why bad actors among the far left come to power with greater frequency than "good" ones.

Do they? Or does it occur at about the same frequency for every ideology on the planet.

Perhaps there is something unique to communism that permits such horrors.

Probably not.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:49 am

Heloin wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:This does not explain why bad actors among the far left come to power with greater frequency than "good" ones.

Do they? Or does it occur at about the same frequency for every ideology on the planet.

Perhaps there is something unique to communism that permits such horrors.

Probably not.

Liberal democracy has a far better track record of not collapsing into a dictatorship, unlike the vast majority of attempts at communism.
Seems like folks really dug the idea of a Dictatorship of the Proletariat.
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Pilipinas and Malaya
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Postby Pilipinas and Malaya » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:08 am

Purpelia wrote:
Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
I guess it does depend on the monument/statue we are talking about, but fifteen years is definitely too excessive. Even the fines alone would be enough to deter those who wish to desecrate much more important targets. For the statues of people who were pretty horrible though, they should either be taken down (and possibly left to the public to tear apart) or be moved to museums to showcase depictions of the past.

And what happens when in a couple decades your children decide that our generation was terrible and need taking down? And their children? And their children after that? Your way would have us live in an empty world devoid of history and culture as every generation destroys that which it finds objectionable until there is nothing left to destroy. You are no better than ISIS blowing up historical sites from the ancient world because they are preislamic.


This is a rather radical comparison. I did not mention anywhere that I would try to erase history by starting with statues. I even said that I would advocate for these statues to be moved to museums to showcase what happened in the past. All I'm saying is that several statues of people with particularly antiquated ideas either have to go or be moved to educational centres.

This is also veering into slippery slope territory.
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Northern Davincia
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Postby Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:10 am

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And what happens when in a couple decades your children decide that our generation was terrible and need taking down? And their children? And their children after that? Your way would have us live in an empty world devoid of history and culture as every generation destroys that which it finds objectionable until there is nothing left to destroy. You are no better than ISIS blowing up historical sites from the ancient world because they are preislamic.


This is a rather radical comparison. I did not mention anywhere that I would try to erase history by starting with statues. I even said that I would advocate for these statues to be moved to museums to showcase what happened in the past. All I'm saying is that several statues of people with particularly antiquated ideas either have to go or be moved to educational centres.

This is also veering into slippery slope territory.

All ideas are eventually antiquated, we might as well accept that and leave the statues be.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:49 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
This is a rather radical comparison. I did not mention anywhere that I would try to erase history by starting with statues. I even said that I would advocate for these statues to be moved to museums to showcase what happened in the past. All I'm saying is that several statues of people with particularly antiquated ideas either have to go or be moved to educational centres.

This is also veering into slippery slope territory.

All ideas are eventually antiquated, we might as well accept that and leave the statues be.



You know I agree with you on the founding fathers and other non-confederate statues. We can just accept that history is messy, people are complicated. I mean sure our founding fathers were racist slave owners, they were also products of their time and happened to give us a governing document that would set the bar for freedom and democracy up through the later part of the 20th century. Not to mention birthing what would become the most powerful nation the world has ever seen in the process. Yeah they have some flaws, big ones. But the other shit they did is so incredible that it deserves public celebration, in spite of them.

However these confederate statues, it's not merely an issue of antiquated ideals. These men tried to found a nation entirely predicted on those antiquated ideals, committed high treason in pursuit of said nation, and after losing the bloodiest war this country ever fought in defense of those antiquated ideals, they were commemorated in stone by their contemporaries to ensure that, while they may have lost the war, those antiquated ideals would project long in to the future.

It's not about erasing history. These men don't deserve the glory afforded to them through these statues, and we would do well to make sure that neither they, nor their antiquated ideals, continue to receive it any longer.
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Bassoe
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Postby Bassoe » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:50 pm

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:I did quite a bit of reading regarding the dynamics connected to toppling down these statues and stumbled upon an academic criticism of the collection of fields known by some as grievance studies. To sum it up, it's not flattering, and some of those academics should be ashamed of letting ideological orthodoxy get in the way of genuine scholarship. MLK would be rolling in his grave.

Personally, it codified that gut feeling that as I sympathize and agree with the goals of addressing racism and prejudice, there seems to be a rot within the existing movements that needs to be excised.

I'm gonna take a page out of Chairman Mao's book, if and when a "Cultural Revolution" occurs in the United States, they better get this "grievance studies" or whatever cleaned out. Or not. Be a lot cooler if they did. Try not to massacre anyone, though.

The grievance studies crowd are the most likely Cultural Revolutionaries.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:53 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:All ideas are eventually antiquated, we might as well accept that and leave the statues be.



You know I agree with you on the founding fathers and other non-confederate statues. We can just accept that history is messy, people are complicated. I mean sure our founding fathers were racist slave owners, they were also products of their time and happened to give us a governing document that would set the bar for freedom and democracy up through the later part of the 20th century. Not to mention birthing what would become the most powerful nation the world has ever seen in the process. Yeah they have some flaws, big ones. But the other shit they did is so incredible that it deserves public celebration, in spite of them.

However these confederate statues, it's not merely an issue of antiquated ideals. These men tried to found a nation entirely predicted on those antiquated ideals, committed high treason in pursuit of said nation, and after losing the bloodiest war this country ever fought in defense of those antiquated ideals, they were commemorated in stone by their contemporaries to ensure that, while they may have lost the war, those antiquated ideals would project long in to the future.

It's not about erasing history. These men don't deserve the glory afforded to them through these statues, and we would do well to make sure that neither they, nor their antiquated ideals, continue to receive it any longer.

In continuing to deify the vaguely defined group of politicians known as the Founding Fathers you are not accepting that history is messy and people are complicated. You are deliberately ignoring their flaws as much as you possibly can without somehow removing that knowledge from your brain.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:58 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

You know I agree with you on the founding fathers and other non-confederate statues. We can just accept that history is messy, people are complicated. I mean sure our founding fathers were racist slave owners, they were also products of their time and happened to give us a governing document that would set the bar for freedom and democracy up through the later part of the 20th century. Not to mention birthing what would become the most powerful nation the world has ever seen in the process. Yeah they have some flaws, big ones. But the other shit they did is so incredible that it deserves public celebration, in spite of them.

However these confederate statues, it's not merely an issue of antiquated ideals. These men tried to found a nation entirely predicted on those antiquated ideals, committed high treason in pursuit of said nation, and after losing the bloodiest war this country ever fought in defense of those antiquated ideals, they were commemorated in stone by their contemporaries to ensure that, while they may have lost the war, those antiquated ideals would project long in to the future.

It's not about erasing history. These men don't deserve the glory afforded to them through these statues, and we would do well to make sure that neither they, nor their antiquated ideals, continue to receive it any longer.

In continuing to deify the vaguely defined group of politicians known as the Founding Fathers you are not accepting that history is messy and people are complicated. You are deliberately ignoring their flaws as much as you possibly can without somehow removing that knowledge from your brain.


::shrug:: donitism is heresy.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
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