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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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Giovenith
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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:58 am

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Further Reading
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...

What is Feminism?
Feminist theory
Feminist philosophy
~
History of Feminism
History of Feminism
"History of Feminism"
The Cynical Historian

~
Types of Feminism
~
Books
Books and texts that explore varying
perspective on both men and women's issues.
By no means a complete list, but a good place
to start.

"The Big Book of Feminism: Big Ideas Simply Explained"
~
"A Vindication of the Rights of Woman" Mary Wollstonecraft
~
"The Second Sex" Simone de Beauvoir
~
"The Feminine Mystique" Betty Friedan
~
"Sexual Politics" Kate Millett
~
"Are Women Human? Astute and Witty Essays on the Role of
Women in Society" Dorothy L. Sayers
~
"The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity is Hurting Young
Women" Jessica Valenti
~
"The Myth of Male Power" Warren Farrell
~
"Sex, Power, and Partisanship: How Evolutionary Science Makes
Sense of Our Political Divide" Dr. Hector A. Garcia
~
"The Myth of Mars and Venus: Do Men and Women Really Speak Different
Languages?" Deborah Cameron
~
"Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls" Dr. Mary Phipher
~
"Sacred Cows: Is Feminism Relevant To The New Millennium?" Rosalind Coward
~
"The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory" Cynthia Eller
~
"Gentlemen and Amazons" Cynthia Eller (sequel to above)
~
"Rage Becomes Her: The Power of Women's Anger" Soraya Chemaly
~
"Women v. Religion: The Case Against Faith—and for Freedom" Karen Garst
~
"Lean In: Women, Work, and the Will to Lead" Sheryl Sandberg
~
"Nice Girls Don't Get the Corner Office" Lois P. Frankel
~
"Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and
Controlling Men" Lundy Bancroft
~
"Abused Men: The Hidden Side of Domestic Violence" Philip W. Cook
~
"Woman-to-Woman Sexual Violence: Does She Call It Rape?" Lori B. Girshick
~
"The Vagina Bible: The Vulva and the Vagina—Separating
the Myth from the Medicine" Dr. Jennifer Gunter

Old threads:
The NationStates Feminist Thread
The NationStates Feminist Thread II
The NationStates Feminist Thread III
The NS Mens Rights Thread


Sidebar is a work in progress.
Suggestions for resources welcome.

Hi there, everybody!

Welcome to the fourth iteration of the NationStates feminism megathread.


Here is where you will find all manner of topics relating to feminism and the issues it concerns itself with.

Discussion of men's rights is also welcome. There used to be a thread specifically for men's rights, but it was rarely used as most relevant talks took place in the feminism thread. So please, feel free to bring those conversations here too — apologies if this is not ideal for some.

This thread is always a work in progress to provide the best resources for those interested in gender rights of all sorts. Please, feel free to suggest books, websites, articles, and documentaries that you feel give insight to be linked and organized in the OP.


What is Feminism?

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Defining feminism has always been a tricky topic. While the concept of women's rights has been around since the beginning of human history (if not always reaching the heights we'd prefer today), the term "feminism" itself is relatively new, and there is some debate as to where women's rights in general and feminism proper meet.

From Wikipedia:

    "Charles Fourier, a utopian socialist and French philosopher, is credited with having coined the word "féminisme" in 1837. The words "féminisme" ("feminism") and "féministe" ("feminist") first appeared in France and the Netherlands in 1872, Great Britain in the 1890s, and the United States in 1910. The Oxford English Dictionary lists 1852 as the year of the first appearance of "feminist" and 1895 for "feminism". Depending on the historical moment, culture and country, feminists around the world have had different causes and goals. Most western feminist historians contend that all movements working to obtain women's rights should be considered feminist movements, even when they did not (or do not) apply the term to themselves. Other historians assert that the term should be limited to the modern feminist movement and its descendants. Those historians use the label "protofeminist" to describe earlier movements."
Many people are fond of the tongue-in-cheek definition that feminism is "the radical notion that women are people," but more seriously, feminism is traditionally defined as the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. While this might seem straight forward at first, debate flares among the feminist community about exactly what it means to be "equal," how that is achieved, where gender-based oppression comes from, and who should be responsible for what in the cause. Such debate topics can include:

  • Does equality mean that men and women will usually wind up doing the same things, or does it mean that they will do different things but that those things will be equally valued?
  • What sorts of roles, activities, and expectations empower women, and which hold them back?
  • Can certain enterprises like religion, atheism, capitalism, socialism, technology, ecology, conservatism, liberalism, etc. aid in women's rights, or are they part of the problem?
  • How much should feminism combine with other forms of advocacy, such as the LGBT+ movement or racial equality?
  • Are men oppressed alongside women, or are men the oppressors of women?
  • Should feminism encompass men's issues too, or should it focus on women while men have their own branch of gender equality advocacy? Do men even need advocacy at all?
Many people throughout the history of feminism and women's rights circles have had different answers to these questions. Often the first thing that a young feminist will be surprised by when getting into discourse is how her/his/their own answers are not considered as "obvious" as they initially believed. History, sociology, psychology, economics, and philosophy all provide avenues to addressing them, and this thread serves as a center to do so.

Feminism has many subsets, a few of which are listed in the sidebar under "Types of Feminism."

Who is a feminist?

Whoever says they are.

There's a lot of grandstanding in the conversation about feminism, a lot of declarations about who is and is not "really" a feminist based largely on self-proclaimed authority. You're not a real feminist if you think this, you're not a real feminist if you don't think that, men can't be feminists just feminist allies, feminist is a title that has to be earned, etc., etc., etc.

While that debate is welcome here (within reason), the fact is that there is no Queen of Feminism or Feminist Police or Official Feminist Bible who has the power to decide those things once and for all. Despite what (self-admittedly) many feminists like to imagine, feminism has been diverse and complicated from the start, there was never this mythic time where those involved in it were all in agreement about what it meant to be a feminist and who qualified as such. Even the suffragettes had strong disagreements with each other about women's role in society and the best angle for achieving suffrage — Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton famously conflicted with Victoria Woodhull. Feminism is just a branch of philosophy like any other, it is free to be interpreted and transformed to evolving values, needs, factors, and agendas. As ever, No True Scotsman (Scotswoman?) looms in judgment of those who think that they hold the invisible guidebook for determining True Feministhood™.

Quotes to set the tone...
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    I have encountered riotous mobs and have been hung in effigy, but my motto is: Men's rights are nothing more. Women's rights are nothing less.
— Susan B. Anthony

    I do not wish them [women] to have power over men; but over themselves.
— Mary Wollstonecraft

    Misogyny or misandry is not a status or a belief; it is just a sickness.
― M.F. Moonzajer

    In reaction against the age-old slogan, "woman is the weaker vessel," or the still more offensive, "woman is a divine creature," we have, I think, allowed ourselves to drift into asserting that "a woman is as good as a man," without always pausing to think what exactly we mean by that. What, I feel, we ought to mean is something so obvious that it is apt to escape attention altogether, (...) that a woman is just as much an ordinary human being as a man, with the same individual preferences, and with just as much right to the tastes and preferences of an individual. What is repugnant to every human being is to be reckoned always as a member of a class and not as an individual person.
— Dorothy L. Sayers

    All this pitting of sex against sex, of quality against quality; all this claiming of superiority and imputing of inferiority, belong to the private-school stage of human existence where there are 'sides,' and it is necessary for one side to beat another side, and of the utmost importance to walk up to a platform and receive from the hands of the Headmaster himself a highly ornamental pot.
— Virginia Woolf

    Anything may happen when womanhood has ceased to be a protected occupation.
— Virginia Woolf

    If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.
— Abigail Adams

    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
— Martin Luther King Jr

    I am a men's liberationist (or "masculist") when men's liberation is defined as equal opportunity and equal responsibility for both sexes. I am a feminist when feminism favors equal opportunities and responsibilities for both sexes. I oppose both movements when either says our sex is THE oppressed sex, therefore, "we deserve rights." That's not gender liberation but gender entitlement. Ultimately, I am in favor of neither a women's movement nor a men's movement but a gender transition movement.
— Warren Farrell

    I shall not change my course because those who assume to be better than I desire it.
— Victoria Woodhull

    Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.
— George Carlin

Women's Resources


International Women's Day is March 8th! Save the date!

Women's Rights Agencies, Groups and Organizations

Women's Health, Victim Assistance, Support

Blogs

Journals and Books

Men's Resources


International Men's Day is November 19th! Save the date!

Important note: "A Voice For Men" is an illegal link on NationStates due to their involvement in doxxing. Do not link anything from them on this thread or anywhere else.

Men's Rights Organizations, Agencies, Misc

Support and discussion (pro-man without being anti-woman):

Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention

Parenting Support

Because men's rights isn't as popular as women's rights, unfortunately, many people aren't sure where to begin when researching the topic. The original Men's Rights thread provided these links:




If you're new here, before you post...
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Since this seems to be one of the first places that people new to the site like to visit (likely because of how common strong opinions about feminism are across the rest of the internet), I feel the need to go into a bit more detail about what is expected here that veteran players shouldn't need to be told. If you are new, please make sure that you have read The One Stop Rules Shop before posting on the forums.

"A feminism thread? My time to shine! Feminism is cancer! Come at me, SJWs!"

No.

If I had a nickel for every person who walked into this thread expecting to be the first person here to stand in opposition to a den of rabid "SJW" stereotypes, I'd have a fortune to rival that of the nickels obtained from people complaining about the swastika flag restrictions. It's neither clever nor unique. You are not the first person here to be critical of feminism, you will not be the last, you will almost certainly not be the most memorable.

Also, keep in mind that calling anyone "cancer" or other such colorful memetics (ex, "get back in the kitchen lol!" trolling) will get you disciplined by the Moderators (free speech doesn't exist on this website — yes, we know it's tyrannical, no, we don't care) — this isn't Reddit or the YouTube comment section. Go back to there if you want virtual high-fives for unimaginative "pwning." While on NationStates, you abide by our rules.

And try actually listening to people you disagree with, for once. You might learn something.

"Why are non-feminists allowed here? This is supposed to be a thread for promoting feminism!"

This is a thread for topics about feminism, not solely for feminists. Said topics will include those that are critical of feminism. Obviously feminists are more than welcome here, but this is not an exclusive circle for them. This is a debate thread, not a sanctuary. Keep in mind that not everyone who brands themselves as "anti-feminist" intends that label to mean an opposition to gender equality itself, but rather what they see as the poor handling of gender equality by the individuals who label themselves as the feminist movement. You are free to disagree with that position, but understand that it is a position that people take, and try to keep it in mind in order to debate in good faith.

Similarly to the above warning, just like this is not Reddit or the YouTube comments section, this is not Tumblr, BuzzFeed, or Jezebel either. On this website we are interested in debate and conversation, not in "gotcha!" zingers designed to snappily put critics of feminism in their place while the rest of us go, "You tell 'em, girl!" You're not going to be the next big "best, response, EVER!!" screenshot that gets shared around social justice media, and the whole super sassy, "proud bitch," yawning-and-waving-hand-dismissively-at-the-manbabies routine was already old by thread one — not even the other feminists are impressed by it, and absolutely no one is flustered by it.

You are also not held to any different standard than your opponents. "But I was saying it to a misogynist/alt-right/Nazi/bad guy! Saying bad things to them is a good thing! Come on, this is [current year] for crying out loud!" is not an acceptable excuse for breaking the rules. "Ironic" misandry such as "kill all men" is definitely not welcome. Several a social justice-oriented newbie has been banned in the past for mistakenly thinking that that sort of logic would hold here. There is no "punching up" exception on NationStates — keep your hands to yourself, period.

And try actually listening to people you disagree with, for once. You might learn something.


Thanks to Swith Witherward for running the last three threads, and doing most of the work of compiling these links. Also thanks to Hirota for the original Men's Rights thread and its links, as well as anyone else who as contributed to the gathering and organization of this OP.
Note to OP: Headliner font permalink.
Last edited by Giovenith on Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Giovenith
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:59 am

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~
Come here to see a changing variety of topics related to feminism, women's rights, and gender abolition in general. Suggestions welcome.
~♡~



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Two questions I'm often asked as an advocate for diversity in ballet are, "Do you think ballet organizations are genuine?" and, "Do you think it's changing?"

Quite honestly, there are times when I am not so certain. Then there are days when I get texts and Facebook messages alerting me to a story that reinforces my belief that ballet might just be shifting.

One such moment was in late November when Andrea Long-Naidu texted me the image of Pacific Northwest Ballet's Clara, Samrawit Saleem. There she was, seated on the floor in her party dress, gazing down lovingly at her Nutcracker with an elegant use of épaulement. Andrea called me, "Theresa, she's gorgeous, she's brown and look at her hair!!" She was referring to Saleem's double strand twists that were styled half-up half-down. My mouth was agape.

On social media, "skin-folk" had gotten hold of the image and were reposting it, prizing the casting and, of course, her hair. African American hair has been stigmatized since slavery, when women were forced to wear head scarves because it was deemed unsightly. Even today there are court cases against employers who forbid black women to wear their natural hair in corporate settings, deeming it "unprofessional." PNB's casting of a black Clara was courageous, but a black Clara with natural hair was radical.

I needed to get to the bottom of it.

I soon learned that, over the past three years, PNB has had five Claras, who perfectly represent the demographics of Seattle: two are white, one is Korean, one is Japanese/Spanish and the last is Saleem (who is the first African American Clara in PNB's Balanchine version of Nutcracker). Artistic director Peter Boal makes it clear that she was not chosen because she was black. "Samrawit was cast as Clara because of her talent and presence," he says, "and there were no barriers at PNB to block her from this opportunity."

Often in my advocacy, I find myself to be a sounding board for the frustration and mistrust the African American community has when it comes to ballet's push for diversity. It's warranted. Often our issues are treated as fads, and organizations pocket large amounts of money for simulating support and offering "exposure" that yield little-to-no sustainable change. It is natural for folks to be suspect. I've made it my self-imposed job to suss out the authentic players from the face savers. When I saw the PNB picture of Saleem, I was warmed, not only because of her undeniable coco-ness and her twists, but because I knew deep down the work was working.

I have seen how Boal and PNB's executive director Ellen Walker have been unafraid to hear hard truths, and have committed to listening, learning, then doing the right thing. PNB has been part of Seattle's Justice and Equity Committee, and together they are dedicated to making changes organization-wide. "Hearing the perspective of others reiterated the importance of being intentional about our casting, and showing audiences, families, board and the community what our values are," Boal says. "It reiterated the importance of putting role models in the front of the room, or at the center of the stage."

When asked about earning the coveted role of Clara, 11-year-old Saleem says, "I was really excited and worked really hard on this." Saleem joined PNB's school three years ago through its DanceChance program in partnership with Seattle's public schools, after training with Edna Daigne of Ewajo Dance Studio, a veteran dance teacher in the African American community.

Saleem's parents are acutely aware of the culture of whiteness in ballet and do not hesitate to speak up. When her mother accompanied her to the DanceChance orientation, there was talk about hair and the traditional bun. Mrs. Saleem approached DanceChance coordinator Lauren Kirchner, and suggested that she include hair alternatives. Kirchner was responsive. PNB is on a learning curve, but seems to be leaning in.

Samrawit's father Zithri Saleem, is a critical theorist, and keeps this event in perspective. "We celebrate, but we celebrate in the context of whiteness," he says. "It is a reflection—the 'first black' anything is an indictment of where we are, and we can't lose sight of that." As parents, the Saleems are vocal when necessary—something that quite frankly frightens most ballet organizations: having to "deal" with parents. However, PNB has been receptive. "We have never had any issue getting access," says Mr. Saleem, "and we don't let anything slide."

After her casting, Samrawit says that there was a discussion about her hair amongst her classmates. "There were some girls who were saying, 'Well you know you're going to have to change your hair.' "

They were wrong. Boal was clear from the onset: "I felt quite strongly about this and started a conversation about her hair as soon as she was cast. I didn't want Samrawit or her family to think they needed to change her hair to fit a tradition. I also didn't want Samrawit to feel obligated to keep her braids. We communicated with Samrawit and her mom, letting them know that her hairstyle was their call: As long as the crown would stay on her head, my needs were satisfied. She wears that crown beautifully."

As a major ballet company, PNB is emerging as a leader in the diversity movement. "It's no longer good enough for PNB to be a welcoming place for people of color," Walker says. "We need to do that intentional work of finding people of color to join our school, our company, our staff and board."

Zithri Saleem has seen a conscious shift. "Over these three years, I've seen an awakening," he says. "It has been a great experience for Samry. I feel that she is valued here."

PNB might be the largest ballet company to feature a brown Clara this season, but it is certainly not the only one. Is this a trend or is the media just picking it up more?

At Ballet Memphis, Felicia Baker is not the company's first non-white Clara, but she is its first African American Clara. Diverse casting has been the norm at Ballet Memphis for a long time now, says artistic director Dorothy Gunther Pugh. "We have had interracial lead couples in our Nutcracker, as we have in all our work we present. I think it is enormously important for all audiences to see non-white boys and girls and women and men on the stage."

Salomé Tregre is Cincinnati Ballet's first black Clara in 50 years. (There have only been two non-white Claras in the role previously). The 13-year-old has been at the academy for 10 years. "Salomé is a student that we have watched for quite some time," says second company director Suzette Boyer Webb. "Her drive, hard work, attention to detail and coachable manner earned her this role."

You have to wonder if audiences were taken aback after almost a half a century of traditionally white Claras. But Webb says Tregre was welcomed by the audience and everyone involved in the production "with open arms."

I see these Claras as evidence that the work for equity is beginning to make a difference, not solely because of casting but the thinking that motivates it. However, I would be remiss if I did not mention that some of the productions that feature African Americans at Christmastime are nontraditional, like Debbie Allen Dance Academy's Hot Chocolate Nutcracker and Brooklyn Ballet's Brooklyn Nutcracker.

For 25 years, Atlanta-based Ballethinc has been presenting its Urban Nutcracker rewritten by co-founder and director Waverly Lucas. "I was motivated by the fact that I had performed in many Nutcrackers as a guest artist and only one had a black Clara," he says. "I began by changing the perspective of the story with characters that reflect African American or African diasporic culture." Taking a page out of Karel Shook and Arthur Mitchell's Creole Giselle book (both Lucas and co-founder/director Nina Gilteath are DTH alums), he flipped the script and culturally redesigned the characters making Clara into Sarah, Sugar Plum Fairy became Brown Sugar, and the Cavalier (I love this one) became The Chocolatier.

The thing that makes this rendition so brilliant is that it eradicates the offensive stereotypes that we all try to look beyond in the second act. Lucas also added culturally-specific characters like Big Mama, Mother Spice, Sassy Sadie and the Sailor, and The Reggae Ragdolls. He even reimagined the actual Nutcracker. "Ours is in the image of Marcus Garvey and his Garveyite Soldiers," he says.

Demographically, it's genius. Atlanta is a majority African American city. If Atlanta Ballet—which only has one African American dancer—is interested in drawing African Americans into the theater, a collaboration with Ballethnic on something like a reimagined Nutcracker might do the trick!

Perhaps Ballethnic has it right in reimagining the traditional ballet, because when we talk about creating equity in ballet, essentially we are talking about reimagining the ballet tradition—Eurocentric whiteness. It won't happen overnight, and it may take a while until the work is visible. In the meantime, Peter Boal is right when he says, "We are thrilled that more children in both the audience and at PNB School can see themselves onstage as future Claras and ballerinas."




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In 1984, Ruth Coker Burks' discovery of a hospital room door with a "big, red bag" over it and her encounter with the dying young man inside changed her life — and led her to becoming the final caregiver for hundreds of people dying of AIDS, most of them young gay men who had been abandoned by their families. When Burks, then 26 years old, learned how many young men were being left to die alone and often were not even being claimed for burial, she recalls thinking, "Who knew there’d come a time when people didn’t want to bury their children?” Over the next ten years, Burks estimates that she helped care for over 1,000 people dying of AIDS and even dug the graves for 40 of them herself in her family's cemetery. In recognition of today's World AIDS Day, we're sharing her inspiring story — and the powerful and timeless lesson it teaches about the power of compassion to overcome fear and prejudice.

Burks was visiting a friend at University Hospital in Little Rock, Arkansas when she noticed a door with a big red bag over it. “I would watch the nurses draw straws to see who would go in and check on him,” she recalled in an interview with the Arkansas Times. Burks, whose cousin was gay, knew enough about AIDS to guess who the patient inside the door was — and fears about the disease didn’t stop her from sneaking into the room. Inside, she discovered a skeletal young man desperate to see his mother before he died. When she told the nurses, “They laughed. They said, ‘Honey, his mother’s not coming. He’s been here six weeks. Nobody’s coming.’” Burks convinced the nurses to give her his mother’s number and she tried reaching out one last time time, but it was obvious his mother had no intention of coming to see her “sinful” son who she considered already dead to her. As Burks told Katie Couric in an interview, she then returned to the room and took his hand. "I ended up staying with him for thirteen hours until he took his last breath on this earth."

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With his family refusing to claim his body, Burks decided to bury him herself in a local cemetery where her family owned hundreds of plots. “No one wanted him,” she says, “and I told him in those long 13 hours that I would take him to my beautiful little cemetery, where my daddy and grandparents were buried, and they would watch out over him.” The closest funeral home that agreed to cremate his body was 70 miles away and she paid for it out of her savings. A friend at a local pottery gave her a chipped cookie jar to use as an urn and she used a pair of posthole diggers to dig the hole.

Over the next few years, when she became one of the go-to people in the conservative Southern state caring for people with AIDS, Burks buried more than 40 people in similar jars, most of them gay men who had been rejected by their families. “My daughter would go with me,” she recalls. “She had a little spade, and I had posthole diggers. I’d dig the hole, and she would help me. I’d bury them, and we’d have a do-it-yourself funeral. I couldn’t get a priest or a preacher. No one would even say anything over their graves.” As a result, she reflected in a CBS News interview, "I had that honor of handing them back to their friends and to God."

During this time, as the AIDS epidemic was devastating the gay community across the country, she began to get referrals from rural hospitals from across the state. "They just started coming,” she explains. “Word got out that there was this kind of wacko woman in Hot Springs who wasn’t afraid... I was their hospice. Their gay friends were their hospice. Their companions were their hospice.”

Time and time again, Burks reached out to their parents but, out of the 1,000 people she cared for, she says that only a handful didn't reject their dying children. And, although she often saw the worst in people, she says she was also privileged to see people at their best as they cared for their friends and partners with dignity and grace: “I watched these men take care of their companions and watch them die... Now, you tell me that’s not love and devotion.” Burks also saw how the gay community supported one another and her efforts. “They would twirl up a drag show on Saturday night and here’d come the money. That’s how we’d buy medicine, that’s how we’d pay rent. If it hadn’t been for the drag queens, I don’t know what we would have done.”

By the mid-1990s, better treatment, education, and social acceptance made her efforts largely obsolete and Burks stopped caring for patients personally. Today, the work that she and others did on behalf of the many people who died during the height of the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s and early 1990s has been largely forgotten. Burks' efforts, however, were brought to light in recent years when a crowdfunding campaign raised $75,000 to finally fulfill her dream of creating a memorial to those she buried at the the Historic Files Cemetery. A memorial that Burks had long hoped would read, in part: "This is what happened. In 1984, it started. They just kept coming and coming. And they knew they would be remembered, loved and taken care of, and that someone would say a kind word over them when they died."



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"Why Does He Do That?"

by Lundy Bancroft

In this groundbreaking bestseller, Lundy Bancroft—a counselor who specializes in working with abusive men—uses his knowledge about how abusers think to help women recognize when they are being controlled or devalued, and to find ways to get free of an abusive relationship.

He says he loves you. So...why does he do that?

You’ve asked yourself this question again and again. Now you have the chance to see inside the minds of angry and controlling men—and change your life. In Why Does He Do That? you will learn about:

• The early warning signs of abuse
• The nature of abusive thinking
• Myths about abusers
• Ten abusive personality types
• The role of drugs and alcohol
• What you can fix, and what you can’t
• And how to get out of an abusive relationship safely

“This is without a doubt the most informative and useful book yet written on the subject of abusive men. Women who are armed with the insights found in these pages will be on the road to recovering control of their lives.”—Jay G. Silverman, Ph.D., Director, Violence Prevention Programs, Harvard School of Public Health
Last edited by Giovenith on Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:59 am

Like the Emilie Autumn song. Nice title.
Code name: Ratatouille Strychnine
Also: THERNSY!!
Your story isn't over;֍Help save transgender people's lives֍Help for feral cats
Cat with internet access||Supposedly heartless, & a d*ck.||Is maith an t-earra an tsíocháin.||No TGs
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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:00 pm

Wow that OP is info overload.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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West Leas Oros 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:00 pm

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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:37 pm

Thank you, everyone. And if you have any suggestions for the OP, feel free.

I was thinking of using the reserved spot to highlight a changing array of specific topics. Will all that's going on, perhaps something relating to feminism for women of color?
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Postby Anatoliyanskiy » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:41 pm

Yet again, unrelated from the current topic, but thanks for adding ecofeminism.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 12:42 pm

Anatoliyanskiy wrote:Yet again, unrelated from the current topic, but thanks for adding ecofeminism.


No problem. Any ecofeminist material you'd want to see up there?
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Postby Kowani » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:12 pm

If NS had OP award contests, I would definitely nominate this one.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:14 pm

Wow there's a lot of good info there and includes good resources for both women and men's issues.
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:27 pm

But yes, this series of threads reminds me of the responsibility that men have to women in the forms of fatherhood, brotherhood, friendship, courtship, and spousal duties.
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Postby Centai Mal » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:32 pm

Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist
Last edited by Centai Mal on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sundiata » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 pm

Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

It's not a good thing for men to get so careless with respect to their duties as men. These men would be better served joining the Knights of Columbus.

I'm also glad to see that you're a fellow Catholic.
Last edited by Sundiata on Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 pm

That's a mightily well put-together OP.
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:46 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at least on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

It's not a good thing for men to get so careless with respect to their duties as men. These men would be better served joining the Knights of Columbus.

I'm also glad to see that you're a fellow Catholic.

Did you bother to read the page? At all? It talks about advancing equality between men and woman, not about "getting careless with respect to their duties as men"
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Giovenith
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:53 pm

Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist


I haven't seen that one before, though it's nice to see a Reddit men's group that isn't just bashing women for not sleeping with them. The Reddit misogynists and the Tumblr misandrists are just two sides of the same coin to me: Individuals who probably started out as having legitimate anger and grievances, but got twisted and radicalized by hyperbolic echo chambers. I think, though, there's been a notable shift in the zeitgeist towards more productive conversation and less pointless, angry complaining.
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:05 pm

Sundiata wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the https://www.reddit.com/r/MensLib/ movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist

It's not a good thing for men to get so careless with respect to their duties as men. These men would be better served joining the Knights of Columbus.

I'm also glad to see that you're a fellow Catholic.

I don’t like this line of reasoning. What duties does a man have, anyway? The way I see it, society expects so much from men and keeps telling them that it’s for their own sake, but it isn’t. All it is is society keeping men from reaching their true potential. Forcing them to be what society wants them to be, with no regard for his aspirations or goals. A man has a duty to be a decent human being, just like anybody else, but he has no duty to be what everyone thinks he has to be. This sort of thing is what leads to hateful rhetoric. Men and women are unique individuals, and forcing them to be somebody they don’t want to be only breeds mistrust and harmful prejudices against them.
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Postby Frostnia » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:14 pm

Giovenith wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist


I haven't seen that one before, though it's nice to see a Reddit men's group that isn't just bashing women for not sleeping with them. The Reddit misogynists and the Tumblr misandrists are just two sides of the same coin to me: Individuals who probably started out as having legitimate anger and grievances, but got twisted and radicalized by hyperbolic echo chambers. I think, though, there's been a notable shift in the zeitgeist towards more productive conversation and less pointless, angry complaining.


If you want more communities like that, may I suggest taking the bropill?
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Centai Mal
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Postby Centai Mal » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:17 pm

Giovenith wrote:
Centai Mal wrote:Can I ask what y'all think of the Men's Lib movement? I'm in it, and it generally, at leas on the reddit platform, seems to be pretty pro-feminist


I haven't seen that one before, though it's nice to see a Reddit men's group that isn't just bashing women for not sleeping with them. The Reddit misogynists and the Tumblr misandrists are just two sides of the same coin to me: Individuals who probably started out as having legitimate anger and grievances, but got twisted and radicalized by hyperbolic echo chambers. I think, though, there's been a notable shift in the zeitgeist towards more productive conversation and less pointless, angry complaining.

That’s why I like the group. There’s a real focus on healthy discussions of the ways the men are disadvantaged (particularly in mental health and child care/custody) without everything turning into “but women are evil”
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Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:18 pm

Frostnia wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
I haven't seen that one before, though it's nice to see a Reddit men's group that isn't just bashing women for not sleeping with them. The Reddit misogynists and the Tumblr misandrists are just two sides of the same coin to me: Individuals who probably started out as having legitimate anger and grievances, but got twisted and radicalized by hyperbolic echo chambers. I think, though, there's been a notable shift in the zeitgeist towards more productive conversation and less pointless, angry complaining.


If you want more communities like that, may I suggest taking the bropill?


Very cool! I think I'll throw them both up in the OP somewhere. Probably I'm not the only person in search of that stuff.
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Frostnia
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Postby Frostnia » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:21 pm

Giovenith wrote:
Frostnia wrote:
If you want more communities like that, may I suggest taking the bropill?


Very cool! I think I'll throw them both up in the OP somewhere. Probably I'm not the only person in search of that stuff.


What I particularly like about them is that they're not anti-masculinity; they want to make the concept better, and to try and combat toxic ideas that may have settled in men's heads, not tear down the entire concept as evil. They're proud of being men and "bros", but don't let that get in the way of healthy relationships and emotions.
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Giovenith
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Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:30 pm

Frostnia wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
Very cool! I think I'll throw them both up in the OP somewhere. Probably I'm not the only person in search of that stuff.


What I particularly like about them is that they're not anti-masculinity; they want to make the concept better, and to try and combat toxic ideas that may have settled in men's heads, not tear down the entire concept as evil. They're proud of being men and "bros", but don't let that get in the way of healthy relationships and emotions.


I appreciate that too. There's nothing wrong with being a traditional manly man bro type if that's what you're into, the point should be that there's nothing about that kind of personality that requires disrespect towards women or other types of men. Just be ourselves all together, you know?
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Postby Centai Mal » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:31 pm

Frostnia wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
Very cool! I think I'll throw them both up in the OP somewhere. Probably I'm not the only person in search of that stuff.


What I particularly like about them is that they're not anti-masculinity; they want to make the concept better, and to try and combat toxic ideas that may have settled in men's heads, not tear down the entire concept as evil. They're proud of being men and "bros", but don't let that get in the way of healthy relationships and emotions.

I’m gonna look into that, then. I’m pretty proud of being masculine (even if I have my more feminine traits) and I like the focus on healthy masculinity
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Postby Forsher » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:41 pm

Ah, the black hole of interesting topics better suited for individual discussion returns.

Thus far the thread consists almost entirely of people praising a post full of external links and suggestions to go offsite. Which while compromising the blackhole metaphor rather says it all.

Kowani wrote:If NS had OP award contests, I would definitely nominate this one.


Start one.

I mean, I remember the 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2018 ones... I even ran 2015-16 myself.

I can't remember if someone asked to do 2017 or if I just couldn't be arsed doing it. Hell, I might have suggested someone else do it like this.

Someone asked to do 2019's but as far as I can tell never got round to it. Never to late to start it up again. I won't be doing it since as I told the 2018 OP:

I am, however, too jaded these days, too convinced that NSG has lost all sense of community and if it hasn't I post too infrequently to notice that community... without a community of Generalites, the poster awards just aren't the same.


I blame megathreads.

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Sundiata wrote:It's not a good thing for men to get so careless with respect to their duties as men. These men would be better served joining the Knights of Columbus.

I'm also glad to see that you're a fellow Catholic.

I don’t like this line of reasoning. What duties does a man have, anyway? The way I see it, society expects so much from men and keeps telling them that it’s for their own sake, but it isn’t. All it is is society keeping men from reaching their true potential. Forcing them to be what society wants them to be, with no regard for his aspirations or goals. A man has a duty to be a decent human being, just like anybody else, but he has no duty to be what everyone thinks he has to be. This sort of thing is what leads to hateful rhetoric. Men and women are unique individuals, and forcing them to be somebody they don’t want to be only breeds mistrust and harmful prejudices against them.


Damn, is this seriously the most interesting on topic post in here so far? Ugh.

The individual is socially constructed and the notion that they have aspirations or goals outside of that context is extreme arrogance. Any perceived sense of duty or being will shape entirely and wholly those aspirations and goals, in the same way that a penalty taken 7-0 up is not the same as penalty taken in stoppage time at 0-0.

What I find interesting is that there is definitely a masculine ideal that is rigidly opposed to social pressure. I'm sure there's a quote to the effect of "if they push one way, push back" but that doesn't appear to be it (or the quote is way more obscure than I think it is). This is presumably related to a sort Atlas-style burden to bear the weight of the world on one's shoulders, but whether it evolved out of a perceived duty to put food on the table and provide the bills, who knows? Similarly, how to judge the outcome of this ideal? Does it encourage embracing the heteronormie life? Deciding that whatever the world wants and throws at the being, picking up that burden and carrying it anyway is the way to go? Or would it entail a total rejection? Both are entirely logical outcomes...
Last edited by Forsher on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Giovenith
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Giovenith » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:49 pm

Forsher wrote:Ah, the black hole of interesting topics better suited for individual discussion returns.

Thus far the thread consists almost entirely of people praising a post full of external links and suggestions to go offsite. Which while compromising the blackhole metaphor rather says it all.
...
Damn, is this seriously the most interesting on topic post in here so far? Ugh.


I'm so sorry the thread is only four hours old, I'll try harder to time travel next time.

Centai Mal wrote:
Frostnia wrote:
What I particularly like about them is that they're not anti-masculinity; they want to make the concept better, and to try and combat toxic ideas that may have settled in men's heads, not tear down the entire concept as evil. They're proud of being men and "bros", but don't let that get in the way of healthy relationships and emotions.

I’m gonna look into that, then. I’m pretty proud of being masculine (even if I have my more feminine traits) and I like the focus on healthy masculinity


What would you say your trait make-up looks like? What do you like to do?
Last edited by Giovenith on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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