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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
39
72%
No
9
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
6
11%
 
Total votes : 54

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:14 am

There is also a difference between a call for more responsiveness from local authorities in acquiescing to the demands of locals as regards statues, and up and declaring they have failed and we need an elected body to decide it without their input.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:14 am

North German Realm wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The British Empire did some dubious things. That's part of our history too.

Yes. It did a lot of terrible things, and those parts should be demonized. That doesn't mean its history should be viewed -inside the UK itself- from a perspective other than that of the British People. The statue of some Slaver being removed by the people of Bristol is just a demonstration that their perspective does not see that guy as someone deserving of having a Statue erected.


From a certain perspective the danelaw was really about cultural enrichment of the local Anglo-Saxon population.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:14 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This is grotesque philistinism on the level of ISIS destruction of historical monuments because it doesn't align with their ideology. I am ambivalent on the monarchy, but would never support the destruction of historical monuments and artifacts alluding to them.

Statues are intended to glorify. The monarchy, as an institution, should not be glorified.


We disagree as to the purpose of statues, and your attempt to act like there is an objective meaning behind a piece of art is foolhardy.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:17 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:Statues are intended to glorify. The monarchy, as an institution, should not be glorified.


We disagree as to the purpose of statues, and your attempt to act like there is an objective meaning behind a piece of art is foolhardy.

In what world is this:
Image

Not intended to glorify?
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North German Realm
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Postby North German Realm » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:18 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
North German Realm wrote:Yes. It did a lot of terrible things, and those parts should be demonized. That doesn't mean its history should be viewed -inside the UK itself- from a perspective other than that of the British People. The statue of some Slaver being removed by the people of Bristol is just a demonstration that their perspective does not see that guy as someone deserving of having a Statue erected.


From a certain perspective the danelaw was really about cultural enrichment of the local Anglo-Saxon population.

While that's historically not really accurate, given the actual nature of the Danelaw, I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything I said.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:19 am

North German Realm wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:
From a certain perspective the danelaw was really about cultural enrichment of the local Anglo-Saxon population.

While that's historically not really accurate, given the actual nature of the Danelaw, I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything I said.

From what I've seen Loben post, I think it's evident you shouldn't take much of what he says seriously.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:22 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
North German Realm wrote:While that's historically not really accurate, given the actual nature of the Danelaw, I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with anything I said.

From what I've seen Loben post, I think it's evident you shouldn't take much of what he says seriously.


Stay angry if it’s that important to you, I guess.
Last edited by Loben The 2nd on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:22 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
We disagree as to the purpose of statues, and your attempt to act like there is an objective meaning behind a piece of art is foolhardy.

In what world is this:
Image

Not intended to glorify?


A world where the urinal exhibit has taken place and changed peoples understanding of what art is. I suggest you learn about it. An object has no meaning outside of its contextual environment.

I also note that your position, and the far-lefts position in general, is on the face of it entirely inconsistent.

When calling for their removal it's because such statues impact popular understanding in a negative and racist way, and so removing them helps to tackle racism. (I.E, they present a message to the public you disagree with).

When it's noted you can provide context by having other exhbibits, but can't provide context by destroying historical monuments, and thus this message you are alleging is being transmitted can be changed, suddenly "Statues don't communicate messages compared to books".

In which case, what's the problem?

It seems that your understanding of statues changes based on whatever allows you to call for their removal, almost like you have a goal and are working backwards to justify it with whatever argument comes to hand. Almost like your real goal is hostility to the west, white people, and so on, and all of this is merely a series of excuses and rationalizations.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:31 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:In what world is this:

Not intended to glorify?


A world where the urinal exhibit has taken place and changed peoples understanding of what art is. I suggest you learn about it.

I also note that your position, and the far-lefts position in general, is on the face of it entirely inconsistent.

When calling for their removal it's because such statues impact popular understanding in a negative and racist way, and so removing them helps to tackle racism. (I.E, they present a message to the public you disagree with).

When it's noted you can provide context by having other exhbibits, but can't provide context by destroying historical monuments, and thus this message you are alleging is being transmitted can be changed, suddenly "Statues don't communicate messages compared to books".

In which case, what's the problem?

It seems that your understanding of statues changes based on whatever allows you to call for their removal, almost like you have a goal and are working backwards to justify it with whatever argument comes to hand. Almost like your real goal is hostility to the west, white people, and so on, and all of this is merely a series of excuses and rationalizations.

I think it's fair to say that whatever wishy-washy perception of art you can conjure doesn't detract from the ostensible fact that this statue is intended for the glorification of a monarch. Most of the time, when people build an expensive statue of a leader or monarch, it's usually intended as a glorification. The statues of Victoria stand as a representation of this country's colonial legacy, the inherent injustice of monarchy, and the oppression it has inflicted upon the world at large -- and, by any reasonable measure, it's glorifying.

My stance is rather simple. Building statues costs money and teaches us nothing. Furthermore, statues that glorify things that really shouldn't be glorified should be torn down. It's a symbolic gesture against the willing neglect our nation displays towards our past, and how this impacts our future. My opposition to the glorification of racism does not mean I suddenly hate white people and the west. You're attempting to demonise my views to legitimise your own.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Jakker
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Postby Jakker » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:31 am

Lost Memories wrote:Who would get endangered there? True things written on a piece of stone, what's the harm there?
(but that example assumes, you did care even one bit about your grandma, it's hard to make examples of insensitivity to insensitive persons)

Not like it's really worth having this discussion about value of history and cultural identity here, not surprised at all some would try to defend that vandalism here, afterall, the mindset of those vandals isn't to far detached from the general mindset often seen in this forum. If you guys were less lazy you could have been out there with them, have some selfies, vandalize some statues of historical figures you know little about, and generally have a good time after some stressful and boring weeks caused by that virus pandemic limiting your access to getting an education and personal freedumbs.


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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:33 am

What inherent injustice of monarchy?
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:34 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:What inherent injustice of monarchy?

You know, the fact that someone is somehow entitled to be Head of State because of who their parents are/were.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:34 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
A world where the urinal exhibit has taken place and changed peoples understanding of what art is. I suggest you learn about it.

I also note that your position, and the far-lefts position in general, is on the face of it entirely inconsistent.

When calling for their removal it's because such statues impact popular understanding in a negative and racist way, and so removing them helps to tackle racism. (I.E, they present a message to the public you disagree with).

When it's noted you can provide context by having other exhbibits, but can't provide context by destroying historical monuments, and thus this message you are alleging is being transmitted can be changed, suddenly "Statues don't communicate messages compared to books".

In which case, what's the problem?

It seems that your understanding of statues changes based on whatever allows you to call for their removal, almost like you have a goal and are working backwards to justify it with whatever argument comes to hand. Almost like your real goal is hostility to the west, white people, and so on, and all of this is merely a series of excuses and rationalizations.

I think it's fair to say that whatever wishy-washy perception of art you can conjure doesn't detract from the ostensible fact that this statue is intended for the glorification of a monarch. Most of the time, when people build an expensive statue of a leader or monarch, it's usually intended as a glorification. The statues of Victoria stand as a representation of this country's colonial legacy, the inherent injustice of monarchy, and the oppression it has inflicted upon the world at large -- and, by any reasonable measure, it's glorifying.

My stance is rather simple. Building statues costs money and teaches us nothing. Furthermore, statues that glorify things that really shouldn't be glorified should be torn down. It's a symbolic gesture against the willing neglect our nation displays towards our past, and how this impacts our future. My opposition to the glorification of racism does not mean I suddenly hate white people and the west. You're attempting to demonise my views to legitimise your own.



"Wishy washy".
It's the overwhelming consensus of anyone who knows what they're talking about on the subject. An object has no meaning outside of the context it is placed in. The intent of the artist is also not very relevant compared to how the art is perceived, and if we're so focused on intent (there's another of those sudden inconsistencies), then why do you care so much about historical racists given that their intent was not to be evil jackasses?

Why does the intent of the artist matter to you, but not the intent of the subject?

Because again, it seems like you just so happen to make whatever argument and suddenly hold whatever values or opinions allows you to be hostile to white people and their history.

Does intent matter, or doesn't it?
Is the main thing the impact on people, or isn't it?

What is it you actually believe?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:37 am

Thanatttynia wrote:
Celritannia wrote:Injuring police officers is indeed wrong, but that's a small minority.
So the UK should deny its act in the Atlantic Slave Trade?
The racism is here just as much as the US.

AS NCR has mentioned, the statue of Churchill has been sprayed by graffiti multiple times before this.
Again, I highly doubt these will be to the same degree as the statue in Bristol. Worrying over nothing.

No, memes are not damaging to the culture, there no evidence. Nor is there any evidence to suggest YA novels have damaged society, or video games cause violence. Those are opinions with no grounded evidence. You are pulling at straws to find a fault, when the fault is simply systematic racism.
Also I was using the video games argument to compare to your unfounded claim that YA novels have increased these ideals of protests, so it is relevant.

I think a claim like 'racism is as bad in the UK as it is in the US' is in greater need of sources than 'YA popular culture has had an effect on young people' ?

I doubt anyone has done a study on the latter - for anecdotal evidence look at the proliferation of protest signs featuring popular YA franchises; the well-known inability of many young people to recognise e.g. Biblical allusions and instead speak of things in relation to Harry Potter; the culture wars happening within the publishing world (been going on for a few years now.)

If you recognise that culture can affect people's political beliefs I don't see why it's such a stretch to suggest that basically the most successful publishing phenomenon ever and its numerous also successful descendants (esp. on the big screen) have had an effect on the cohort of the population they were marketed to and most popular with? But this is a stupid argument to be having.

I never said anything even remotely like 'the UK should deny its role in the transatlantic slave trade' ? If you want to argue with my position feel free, but there's no need to just invent positions for me and then get mad at them. As for 'worrying over nothing' I take your point because I used to be exactly the same lol, I will just say that if you think for a minute you're outside of the tent pissing in you should prob be made aware asap that we're both inside of a much bigger tent (;


Considering the UK still has an air of racism, the 2 points are not the same.

Funny how you mention HP, despite the fact people have criticised JK Rowling for her anti-trans stance.
Again, Star Wars is still part of the culture, so it isn't modern YA novels. And in fact, less people are reading now anyway.

I'm not saying it cannot affect people. What I am saying is, the correlation between modern culture and these protests is unfounded. Using some quote of a popular series does not mean it is the major reason people are now protesting. It's a silly comparison.

Alright, maybe I jumped the gun, but the removal of the statue was due to people not liking the idea of a slaver getting recognition.
How come no other statues have been torn down then? While Churchill was a racist prick, his statues will not be torn down.

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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:37 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:What inherent injustice of monarchy?

You know, the fact that someone is somehow entitled to be Head of State because of who their parents are/were.


Annnnnnd the head of state which irc in the UK is a.....ceremonial role.

Of a monarchy that has more or less existed for slightly less then a thousand years.

And you, assuming you’re British, wish to change this why?
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:40 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:I think it's fair to say that whatever wishy-washy perception of art you can conjure doesn't detract from the ostensible fact that this statue is intended for the glorification of a monarch. Most of the time, when people build an expensive statue of a leader or monarch, it's usually intended as a glorification. The statues of Victoria stand as a representation of this country's colonial legacy, the inherent injustice of monarchy, and the oppression it has inflicted upon the world at large -- and, by any reasonable measure, it's glorifying.

My stance is rather simple. Building statues costs money and teaches us nothing. Furthermore, statues that glorify things that really shouldn't be glorified should be torn down. It's a symbolic gesture against the willing neglect our nation displays towards our past, and how this impacts our future. My opposition to the glorification of racism does not mean I suddenly hate white people and the west. You're attempting to demonise my views to legitimise your own.

"Wishy washy".
It's the overwhelming consensus of anyone who knows what they're talking about on the subject. An object has no meaning outside of the context it is placed in. The intent of the artist is also not very relevant compared to how the art is perceived, and if we're so focused on intent (there's another of those sudden inconsistencies), then why do you care so much about historical racists given that their intent was not to be evil jackasses?

A statue of Victoria in a society where the kind of racism and injustice her reign perpetuated still leaves its footprint today...? Yeah, even in context I still don't think it's the best thing to have around. Furthermore, I think you'd have a hard time justifying how Victorian England didn't "intend to be" racist and imperialist.
Loben The 2nd wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:You know, the fact that someone is somehow entitled to be Head of State because of who their parents are/were.


Annnnnnd the head of state which irc in the UK is a.....ceremonial role.

Of a monarchy that has more or less existed for slightly less then a thousand years.

And you, assuming you’re British, wish to change this why?

It's a position that still bears immense privilege and stature granted upon merit of birth. It is, categorically, corrupt.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 am

And you’re surprised that being born into a monarchy comes with immense privilege why?
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:And you’re surprised that being born into a monarchy comes with immense privilege why?

I'm not surprised. I just object to it.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Loben The 2nd
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Postby Loben The 2nd » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:42 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:And you’re surprised that being born into a monarchy comes with immense privilege why?

I'm not surprised. I just object to it.


You and a dozen other people?
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:44 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:I'm not surprised. I just object to it.


You and a dozen other people?

That's an argument ad populum -- popular support for a notion does not alone impact the validity of said notion.
Last edited by South Reinkalistan on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
MT pseudo-nazbol hellscape run in a distinctly Orwellian fashion; a tin-pot dictatorship turned world superpower with the intent of spreading highly religious socialism across the world.
Looking for old-fashioned yet "functional" weaponry? We might just have what you need.

THE PROLETARIAN PRESS || Nacrad declares war over Kongsi dispute! Red Army charged with defense of the revolution. || Agricultural and industrial output see yet more phenomenal increase, proving the success of Reinkalistani socialism. || Three new Battlecruisers commissioned for the Red Fleet -- sailors acting in peak peformance. || Questions of General Mobilisation in the People's Congress against Nacradian imperialists.

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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:45 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:
You and a dozen other people?

That's an argument ad populum -- popular support for a notion does not alone impact the validity of said notion.


There are more important political issues than the need to remove the Monarchy.
Last edited by Celritannia on Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:45 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:"Wishy washy".
It's the overwhelming consensus of anyone who knows what they're talking about on the subject. An object has no meaning outside of the context it is placed in. The intent of the artist is also not very relevant compared to how the art is perceived, and if we're so focused on intent (there's another of those sudden inconsistencies), then why do you care so much about historical racists given that their intent was not to be evil jackasses?

A statue of Victoria in a society where the kind of racism and injustice her reign perpetuated still leaves its footprint today...? Yeah, even in context I still don't think it's the best thing to have around. Furthermore, I think you'd have a hard time justifying how Victorian England didn't "intend to be" racist and imperialist.
Loben The 2nd wrote:
Annnnnnd the head of state which irc in the UK is a.....ceremonial role.

Of a monarchy that has more or less existed for slightly less then a thousand years.

And you, assuming you’re British, wish to change this why?

It's a position that still bears immense privilege and stature granted upon merit of birth. It is, categorically, corrupt.


It intended to be imperialist but did not intend the injustice behind it, and rather focused on the positive aspects they believed arose. Same for the racism.
Similarly, the context you're arguing there can nonetheless be altered through the addition of other monuments, not through the destruction of current ones.

And again;
The intent of the artist is also not very relevant compared to how the art is perceived, and if we're so focused on intent (there's another of those sudden inconsistencies), then why do you care so much about historical racists given that their intent was not to be evil jackasses?

Why does the intent of the artist matter to you, but not the intent of the subject?

Because again, it seems like you just so happen to make whatever argument and suddenly hold whatever values or opinions allows you to be hostile to white people and their history.

Does intent matter, or doesn't it?
Is the main thing the impact on people, or isn't it?
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:48 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:
You and a dozen other people?

That's an argument ad populum -- popular support for a notion does not alone impact the validity of said notion.


This presumes some objective set of values on which society should be based. That's nonsense. There is only popular support for certain values and that's all the legitimacy they can have. The argumentum ad populum fallacy only really applies within a value set.

I.E, it is not an argumentum ad populum to note that 99% of people don't value freedom.

It is an argumentum ad populum to say that within the context of a framework, say, science, the popular opinion is what decides the matter.

"We don't care about freedom" isn't a fallacy. "We have popularly decided what freedom means" might be.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Posts: 13475
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:49 am

Celritannia wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:That's an argument ad populum -- popular support for a notion does not alone impact the validity of said notion.


There are more important political issues than the need to remove the Monarchy.

Like the fact that British nuclear industry will be half-owned by a slaver-genocider like the PRC in a few years.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54361
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:51 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
There are more important political issues than the need to remove the Monarchy.

Like the fact that British nuclear industry will be half-owned by a slaver-genocider like the PRC in a few years.


Doing something about that doesn't fit one of the criteria our politics is based on.

It wouldn't be profitable to do anything about, and it doesn't let us hate white people or men and be hostile to them. So neither wing will do anything about it.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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