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[DRAFT] Conscription Fairness Act

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Bears Armed
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Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Mon Aug 05, 2019 7:49 am

Liberimery wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:You can't win a war by defending. At maximum, it would yield a white peace.


The US Revolutionary war, the war of 1812, and the Vietnam war were won by the team playing defense to name three wars. The Russo-Japanese war was a humiliating defeat for Russia, who declared war on the Japanese.
OOC
That's an oversimplified viewpoint -- to put it politely -- all three cases:
In the US Revolutionary War, both sides were the "defending" side to some extent: Don't forget that the British-run administration was not only actually the lawful government but also had the active support of a significant proportion of the colonials right through to the end. Then although the rebels mostly stayed at home (There were one or two attempts to seize Canada, and a small-scale naval raid on civilian shipping in one English harbour), their allies France and Spain and the Netherlands were actively attacking British colonies & ships elsewhere... and, of course, France sent troops overseas into America to fight alongside the rebels.
It's arguable whether the War of 1812 really had a winner at all: Despite what some Americans seem to think, Britain certainly wasn't trying to reconquer the colonies .(And, again, the American attack on Canada wasn't exactly a strictly "defensive" move...)
And in Vietnam the North started as effectively a separate nation from the South in which American forces were helping to suppress rebels, and only succeeded in taking over the South -- which they did by an offensive war -- after the American forces had been withdrawn.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:40 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:You can't win a war by defending. At maximum, it would yield a white peace.

White peace is still victory if you get what what you want. Winning wars doesn't requiring conquering the other side.
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:30 am

(OOC: Are we agreed that the clause should have ‘primarily ’ or similar wording instead of ‘exclusively ’?)
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:41 am

Araraukar wrote:
Liberimery wrote:The US Revolutionary war, the war of 1812, and the Vietnam war were won by the team playing defense to name three wars. The Russo-Japanese war was a humiliating defeat for Russia, who declared war on the Japanese.

OOC: Also Finland in 2nd World War. (Well, "winning" is always a bit relative, but not getting annexed by Russia - which was Russia's goal - is counted as a win, despite the loss of some areas and reparations required.)

OOC:Irish war of independence too
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WayNeacTia
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Postby WayNeacTia » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:30 pm

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Drystar
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Drystar » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:59 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Liberimery wrote:
The US Revolutionary war, the war of 1812, and the Vietnam war were won by the team playing defense to name three wars. The Russo-Japanese war was a humiliating defeat for Russia, who declared war on the Japanese.
OOC
That's an oversimplified viewpoint -- to put it politely -- all three cases:
In the US Revolutionary War, both sides were the "defending" side to some extent: Don't forget that the British-run administration was not only actually the lawful government but also had the active support of a significant proportion of the colonials right through to the end. Then although the rebels mostly stayed at home (There were one or two attempts to seize Canada, and a small-scale naval raid on civilian shipping in one English harbour), their allies France and Spain and the Netherlands were actively attacking British colonies & ships elsewhere... and, of course, France sent troops overseas into America to fight alongside the rebels.
It's arguable whether the War of 1812 really had a winner at all: Despite what some Americans seem to think, Britain certainly wasn't trying to reconquer the colonies .(And, again, the American attack on Canada wasn't exactly a strictly "defensive" move...)
And in Vietnam the North started as effectively a separate nation from the South in which American forces were helping to suppress rebels, and only succeeded in taking over the South -- which they did by an offensive war -- after the American forces had been withdrawn.


You forgot to mention Allied forces were restrained from crossing the border between north and south Vietnam by political decisions. That played a huge role in the North’s ability to outlast US participating.

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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:31 am

“For clause 5, many countries are in an almost perpetual state of war, especially if they are rather militaristic in nature. As these are the countries most likely to be using conscription, I suggest reworking the clause.”

(OOC: As an example, the USA has been at constant war since its founding, with only a few days of complete peace.)
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Araraukar
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Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Aug 07, 2019 5:34 pm

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: As an example, the USA has been at constant war since its founding, with only a few days of complete peace.)

OOC: Which were the peace days? Or what year(s) anyway?
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Kenmoria
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Founded: Jul 03, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Kenmoria » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:02 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: As an example, the USA has been at constant war since its founding, with only a few days of complete peace.)

OOC: Which were the peace days? Or what year(s) anyway?

(OOC: My mistake, it should have been years not days. The US has been at war 222 of the 239 years it has existed.)
Hello! I’m a GAer and NS Roleplayer from the United Kingdom.
My pronouns are he/him.
Any posts that I make as GenSec will be clearly marked as such and OOC. Conversely, my IC ambassador in the General Assembly is Ambassador Fortier. I’m always happy to discuss ideas about proposals, particularly if grammar or wording are in issue. I am also Executive Deputy Minister for the WA Ministry of TNP.
Kenmoria is an illiberal yet democratic nation pursuing the goals of communism in a semi-effective fashion. It has a very broad diplomatic presence despite being economically developing, mainly to seek help in recovering from the effect of a recent civil war. Read the factbook here for more information; perhaps, I will eventually finish it.

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Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:33 am

Kenmoria wrote:(OOC: My mistake, it should have been years not days. The US has been at war 222 of the 239 years it has existed.)

OOC: To be fair, that only counts entire years, so even if there was a one-day war (there have been shorter ones, just so you know :P), that year wouldn't count. EDIT: Still, amusing.
Last edited by Araraukar on Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
- ambassador miss Janis Leveret
Araraukar's RP reality is Modern Tech solarpunk. In IC in the WA.
Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.

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Bears Armed
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21475
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:25 am

Kenmoria wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Which were the peace days? Or what year(s) anyway?

(OOC: My mistake, it should have been years not days. The US has been at war 222 of the 239 years it has existed.)
OOC
Technically that's "been involved in armed conflicts" rather than "been at war", at least if being "at war" is taken to require a declaration of war: The USA hasn't actually declared itself to be at war very often...
Maybe this proposal needs to clarify whether it is only talking about declared wars, rather than conflicts in general?
Last edited by Bears Armed on Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
Author of issues #429, 712, 729, 934, 1120, 1152, 1474, 1521.

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Inhorto
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Founded: Jun 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Inhorto » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:36 pm

Would anybody still be interested in this resolution? I'm happy with it and may consider submission, but more feedback is always appreciated.
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Imperium Anglorum
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:52 pm

You still will not get my approval due to:
FURTHER PROHIBITS Members from conscripting persons for longer than four years;

Consider revision or omission.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Inhorto
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Founded: Jun 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Inhorto » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:14 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:You still will not get my approval due to:
FURTHER PROHIBITS Members from conscripting persons for longer than four years;

Consider revision or omission.

Are six years more equitable for you? Ten?
Commonwealth of Auratian Catholic States
Joseph Yu of the Unity and Consolidation Party (UCP), Former Prime Minister (1 May - 1 July)


"Differences of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open." — Albus Dumbledore

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