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Is religion a necessity for society?

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Freakoland
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Is religion a necessity for society?

Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:50 pm

So, since we're all locked up in our houses I'm sure many of you have had more time for intellectual pursuits. Hence the reason I'm here. I'll be honest I am very bored (not say that reading is boring) and I'm at home and I want to hear an interesting and volatile discussion.

Recently I read "The Brothers Karamosov" by Fyodor Dostoevsky. If you have not read it I highly recommend very good book which pokes some pertinent questions in regards to human nature. One of these is religion, and more specifically whether or not religion is necessary. I think "god" may be a better word for that matter. One of the principle characters, Ivan, talks about how that if god did not exist, it would be necessary to invent god. More specifically that god and religion are essentially the corner stones of society. Now as a Roman Catholic I have my own opinions on this matter but as I said before I'm bored and I want to hear a debate on an internet forum.

So.....is "god" and/or religion a necessity for society?

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Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:52 pm

Freakoland wrote:So, since we're all locked up in our houses I'm sure many of you have had more time for intellectual pursuits.


I've been drinking all week and got a a couple pre-rolls left before I'm out of weed, so you're wrong.

As for the question, I don't think society needs religion but people do need something to believe in. I just wish they could believe in themselves.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:52 pm

Not inherently but religion in its various forms be it Christian, Hindu, Muslim, pagan etc etc does provide a sense of community and belonging that thus far at least purely secular things have failed to match.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:54 pm

Truth is justified unto itself. We should have the courage to ask only "what is true?" and not worry about what the consequences of reality might be.

We should also resent those who try to thrust this kind of infantilizing rhetoric upon us (which, thankfully, most religious people don't.) The worst kind of tyranny is the one that's "for your own good."
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:56 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Freakoland wrote:So, since we're all locked up in our houses I'm sure many of you have had more time for intellectual pursuits.


I've been drinking all week and got a a couple pre-rolls left before I'm out of weed, so you're wrong.

As for the question, I don't think society needs religion but people do need something to believe in. I just wish they could believe in themselves.


i would still consider that intellectual.....to a certain extent

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:56 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Not inherently but religion in its various forms be it Christian, Hindu, Muslim, pagan etc etc does provide a sense of community and belonging that thus far at least purely secular things have failed to match.


The power of the immaterial is greatly beyond the power of the material.

Simply put, faith is stronger than mere ideals. This isn't always a bad thing but also isn't always a good thing. It simply is.
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The Right Hand of the King
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Postby The Right Hand of the King » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:58 pm

Well, because I am Catholic, I am obviously biased. With that being said, religion is needed for a society to function because that's where we get morals from. From our morals, come our laws.

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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:59 pm

Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:03 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Not inherently but religion in its various forms be it Christian, Hindu, Muslim, pagan etc etc does provide a sense of community and belonging that thus far at least purely secular things have failed to match.


The power of the immaterial is greatly beyond the power of the material.

Simply put, faith is stronger than mere ideals. This isn't always a bad thing but also isn't always a good thing. It simply is.


It does, and we better have those faiths to inspire people to work for the betterment of society as opposed to throwing other people off buildings.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:04 pm

It depends, if the spiritual is real, it is a necessity. If the spiritual is not real, it is not a necessity.
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:07 pm

I don't think it is necessary for society, but I do think its development is almost inevitable by any given human society. We naturally seek meaning and explanation for things, and see agency in patterns which may or may not have any.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:07 pm

Religion is not a necessity for society, no. Societies can exist without religion. But then again, religion does not exist with societies in mind. The purpose of religion is to appeal to the soul of the individual. Whether this ultimately benefits the greater community is irrelevant; if even only one soul has been touched, then the religion has accomplished it's goal. From one can come many, and not necessarily through society. Rather it may be society attempting to strike out against it, but I digress.

Ultimately there is nothing mortal, nor finite, nor material for which religion is a necessity. It isn't about this world, but the next one. Now, with that in mind, is religion a necessity for an individual? That is a question dependent entirely on one's own, personal views of religion - whether in general or in reference to one specific religion in particular. Given my own religious views, I'm inclined to say: "Yes."

But that's just my opinion.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:08 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:Here's my opinion:

1. The Czech republic is a nice and peaceful central European country with good healthcare, high standard of living, and an irreligiousity rate of 72%. Meanwhile, Afghanistan is a totalitarian fundamentalist sh*thole country with quack infrastructure and subsistence-level income. I'm not saying that all religion is bad for society per se, some quite the opposite in fact, but I do say that religion isn't really an important factor.

2. The problem with most religion is that, being a dictatorial commandment from the sky that we must obey or else, they can't evaluate the result of their existence and correct them (or at least efficiently). Humans need principles, sure, but we also need a way to evaluate if those principles makes the world a better place or instead drag ourselves to the 6th century.


I think that's interesting what you said in your second point., that religion being a "dictatorial commandment from the sky" or else, in that perhaps religion is just a reflection human nature's desire for some sort of higher authority. People dont really do well in chaos so most people naturally accept a dictorial commandment from the sky. Now that being said I wouldn't say that it is good. People who are able to train themselves out of needing that dictorial commandment in the sky and see the absolute chaos and arbitrariness of the universe and are still able to hold that and be ok with, I think that's where real life begins.

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Region of Dwipantara
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Postby Region of Dwipantara » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:11 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:It depends, if the spiritual is real, it is a necessity. If the spiritual is not real, it is not a necessity.

Good point, actually. If it is proven that there lies a giant homophobic super-Being above the seventh heaven, we better be realistic about our prospects and ditch our current morality to conform with whatever He has dictated. I mean, we stand no chance.
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Sadakoyama
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Postby Sadakoyama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:12 pm

The Right Hand of the King wrote:Well, because I am Catholic, I am obviously biased. With that being said, religion is needed for a society to function because that's where we get morals from. From our morals, come our laws.


Religions or the religious are not necessarily moral; I won't insult you with the obvious recent example but there a plethora of occasions of immorality in the history of religion, and plenty of religions with contradictory morals. The Aztecs, for example.

"Morality" itself is a subjective thing, different across cultures, times, and circumstance.

Laws have bugger-all to do with morality as well; some of the worst injustices have been done in the name of legislating "morality"
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:12 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:Religion is not a necessity for society, no. Societies can exist without religion. But then again, religion does not exist with societies in mind. The purpose of religion is to appeal to the soul of the individual. Whether this ultimately benefits the greater community is irrelevant; if even only one soul has been touched, then the religion has accomplished it's goal. From one can come many, and not necessarily through society. Rather it may be society attempting to strike out against it, but I digress.

Ultimately there is nothing mortal, nor finite, nor material for which religion is a necessity. It isn't about this world, but the next one. Now, with that in mind, is religion a necessity for an individual? That is a question dependent entirely on one's own, personal views of religion - whether in general or in reference to one specific religion in particular. Given my own religious views, I'm inclined to say: "Yes."

But that's just my opinion.



What I think would be interesting is to compare different societies which have tried to eradicate religion versus those which were basically theocratic.

Say Communist Russia vs. Imperial Russia.

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Postby Cekoviu » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:13 pm

Not in the least.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:15 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:It depends, if the spiritual is real, it is a necessity. If the spiritual is not real, it is not a necessity.

Good point, actually. If it is proven that there lies a giant homophobic super-Being above the seventh heaven, we better be realistic about our prospects and ditch our current morality to conform with whatever He has dictated. I mean, we stand no chance.


For now, we'll just have to do with one camp being hateful, and the other camp being hateful, but wrongly.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:15 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
The Right Hand of the King wrote:Well, because I am Catholic, I am obviously biased. With that being said, religion is needed for a society to function because that's where we get morals from. From our morals, come our laws.


Religions or the religious are not necessarily moral; I won't insult you with the obvious recent example but there a plethora of occasions of immorality in the history of religion, and plenty of religions with contradictory morals. The Aztecs, for example.

"Morality" itself is a subjective thing, different across cultures, times, and circumstance.

Laws have bugger-all to do with morality as well; some of the worst injustices have been done in the name of legislating "morality"


I'm intrigued by what you said about the Aztecs and contradictory morals? Would you care to enlighten me?

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Postby Sadakoyama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:16 pm

Freakoland wrote:What I think would be interesting is to compare different societies which have tried to eradicate religion versus those which were basically theocratic.

Say Communist Russia vs. Imperial Russia.


Communist Russia rather quickly replaced worhip of god with worship of Stalin, though. It would be better to look at cultures evolving out of religion, such as Scandanavia.
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.
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Sadakoyama
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Postby Sadakoyama » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:19 pm

Freakoland wrote:I'm intrigued by what you said about the Aztecs and contradictory morals? Would you care to enlighten me?


The Aztecs thought it was perfectly moral, indeed absolutely necessary, to sacrifice tens of thousands of people to show proper gratitude to their gods. To not do these sacrifices was to incur their wrath and risk losing the sun or the rain; that would be immoral, to them.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:20 pm

Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.


Is that contempt I sense?
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Postby Alvecia » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:21 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Personally I don't think so. That which religion provides can be provided through other means.

That said, even without it, people are gonna believe in some stupid shit. Just look at the paranormal, alien consipracies, or pseudoscientific bullshit.


Is that contempt I sense?

I dunno, why don't you guess what I'm contemptuous of and I'll tell you how close you get.
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Freakoland
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Postby Freakoland » Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:21 pm

Sadakoyama wrote:
Freakoland wrote:What I think would be interesting is to compare different societies which have tried to eradicate religion versus those which were basically theocratic.

Say Communist Russia vs. Imperial Russia.


But what about Russia after Stalin, say under Khrushchev or Gorbachev? I think worship of Stalin was no different than any other megalomania seen in say Hitler's Germany or present-day North Korea. But are these cults of personality really "religious"? I don't think so because they don't qualify to be religious in the sense that they lack the spiritual aspect of religion. Now, if you see religion as not specifically spiritual then that would be interesting for another discussion, but in regards to worship of Stalin replacing worship of God I would challenge you on that supposition.
Communist Russia rather quickly replaced worhip of god with worship of Stalin, though. It would be better to look at cultures evolving out of religion, such as Scandanavia.

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