1906: Alternative Divergence [AH][OOC-CLOSED]

[Tracian Empire]

So. About Spain and Central America and the New World.

How much did Spain conquer in this world precisely? How much did the natives gain/suffer? Also...how would things have developed in Central America, taking into the account things in Europe?

As always, I'm not sure that I can answer. The presence of European colonies on the New World indicates that they started like in real life, but we had apps for surviving native states in previous iterations, and it's not impossible for us to receive such apps here too.

I guess it really depends on what you want for your nation, the exact effects of colonialism could have varied depending on the area.

I will however try to contact the Spanish player and see if he is still interested, the period of reservations is expiring soon.

[Theyra]

Reservation

Nation Name: Neo Inca Empire
Territory: Peru, Ecuador, Colombia and Panama
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

[Tracian Empire]

Reservation

Nation Name: Neo Inca Empire
Territory: Peru, Ecuador, Colombia and Panama
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

Oh well, just as we were speaking about American natives xD

Accepted!

[Reverend Norv]

Reservation

Nation Name: Neo Inca Empire
Territory: Peru, Ecuador, Colombia and Panama
#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)
*Note: Reservations will last for 48 hours. The OP board reserves the right to be subjective in regards to accepting and removing reservations.

Oh well, just as we were speaking about American natives xD

Accepted!

Speak of the Devil, I was about to say.

[Zelent]

Hammering out app now, can anyone point me in a good direction as far as the history of the colonization of North America?

[Tracian Empire]

Hammering out app now, can anyone point me in a good direction as far as the history of the colonization of North America?

Well, apps are still a work in progress, but I do believe that Angelond and Scandinavia would have been the big colonizers. For more details, you could try to look at their WIP apps, they're on the first two pages of this thread, or ask then any questions you might have directly xD

[Sao Nova Europa]

My app is OK? (if you have other apps/other work to look first, no worries and no need to rush - just asking)

[Tracian Empire]

[box]

Royalist Flanders
(Image)
"Unity Makes Strength."

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Full Nation Name : Royalistisch Vlaanderen (Eng: Royalist Flanders / Fr: Flandre Royaliste / Informal: Clerical Flanders)

Now, this is a very interesting concept! You can consider the app tentatively accepted - I would just like you to add what I assume would be a sizeable amount of internal unrest to the national issues section - it's only been three years and the nation is going through a lot of changes.

I also really like the concept because the idea of a Catholic fanatic nation might be pleasing to the Pope, but perhaps not so much to the Roman monarchists next to him

[Tracian Empire]

As always, I apologize for my slow reviews today, but I have been working on my own app too. I'll try to review all apps tonight, regardless of whether I sleep or not xD

[Reverend Norv]

[box]

Royalist Flanders
(Image)
"Unity Makes Strength."

---

Full Nation Name : Royalistisch Vlaanderen (Eng: Royalist Flanders / Fr: Flandre Royaliste / Informal: Clerical Flanders)

Now, this is a very interesting concept! You can consider the app tentatively accepted - I would just like you to add what I assume would be a sizeable amount of internal unrest to the national issues section - it's only been three years and the nation is going through a lot of changes.

I also really like the concept because the idea of a Catholic fanatic nation might be pleasing to the Pope, but perhaps not so much to the Roman monarchists next to him

It's kind of interesting in that way. In a number of respects, Flanders looks rather like a Catholic/authoritarian attempt at France's social model and institutions, rather than an extension of traditional Roman norms. It's a society more deeply influenced by its foes than by its friends.

[Tracian Empire]

Now, this is a very interesting concept! You can consider the app tentatively accepted - I would just like you to add what I assume would be a sizeable amount of internal unrest to the national issues section - it's only been three years and the nation is going through a lot of changes.

I also really like the concept because the idea of a Catholic fanatic nation might be pleasing to the Pope, but perhaps not so much to the Roman monarchists next to him

It's kind of interesting in that way. In a number of respects, Flanders looks rather like a Catholic/authoritarian attempt at France's social model and institutions, rather than an extension of traditional Roman norms. It's a society more deeply influenced by its foes than by its friends.

That is indeed true, it's part of what makes this concept so interesting!

It's also why the Orthodox Eastern Romans would be using it as an example of why the Latin rite and dogma is so obviously inferior xD

[The Ik Ka Ek Akai]

Full Nation Name :
ENGLISH
Western Roman Empire
Latin Empire
Holy Roman Empire
ITALIAN
L'impero romano d'Occidente
Il Senato e il popolo romano
DALMATIAN
Saran e Suant Impero
I depotuti e el poplo viaspro
Juan Raigno

Majority/Official Culture : In official terms, the official terminology used is "Romani", a counterpart to the Eastern "Romaic". The Westerners pride themselves on their Latin heritage, and exploit it to its full extent. The state does not recognize regional languages, only dialects of "Lingua Latina Nova", otherwise called "New Latin" or "Modern Latin". They insist that the Italo-Dalmatian languages are just the natural progression of the Latin language, compared to the "Gallic speech" or the "Hispanic language". Natives will often call themselves by local or regional terms, sometimes with classical reference. Some might say "We are Liguri", others might say "We are Etrusci" or "We are Tusci", and so on. Interestingly, the African Latins have adopted the name Punici for themselves, in contrast with the remaining Punic speakers centered in Libya, who are called Cartaginesi.

The Western perception of Romanitas varies from the Eastern one in some ways, but aligns in most. It is not necessarily fixed to any particular ethnic group, but it is more pluralistic in forgetting religious boundaries as well. In Italy, a mosaic of Christendom exists, with Catholics, Orthodox concentrated in the South, some traces of Arianism in the North, all conflicting with the Caesaropapist question of whether the emperor or the pope should rule the other. This is to say nothing of remnant pagans, or attempts to incorporate the Jews (and, in the same idea, the Carthaginians) for a slew of reasons. However, for political reasons, Latins are given more arbitrary and imaginary points regarding Romanitas, especially in relation to the Greeks. While there is a greater sense that Romanitas corresponds in many ways to a civilization, which any given individual can join, the notion of bloodline from the republic and the older empire still carries extra weight, much to the chagrin of the East.

A more demotic and republican tradition, brought about by the relative lack of courtly grace in the early military government and, just perhaps, a higher confidence in their own Romanitas as Latins, has allowed this more pluralistic view of to flourish over the ages. The relative liberty of the West has led it to pin former atrocities on the East - claiming to the Jews that it was the East which harmed them, and currying their favor through resettlement in somewhat autonomous communities as Carthaginians, just for example. Few attitudes are so universalist as in the East, and thus they are more often opportunistic, relative, contextual, and at times arbitrary. Perhaps the only constant is that 'we' are more Roman than 'them', which especially includes the East.
Territorial Core : You know, plus the additional colonies we talked about
Territorial Claim : Technically, the whole of the original Western empire, and maybe a bit more, but for practicality we can say Gaul and maybe Spain and kinda leave it at that
Capital City : Rome, Rome, Rome
Population : ~49,200,055
35,000,000 (Italy)
3,000,000 (Africa)
5,200,000 (Balkans)
55 (Tavolara)
4,000,000 (Venezuela)
2,000,000 (Caribbean)

Government Type : Exarchate - a nifty way to shorten that it is a militaristic monarchical government that still yet maintains republican overtures and a functioning senate appointed by a vulgar electorate
Government Ideology/Policies : The Latin government puts a heavy emphasis on the preservation of national Romanitas underlying all subject peoples, and the bearing of the Roman spirit through the ages. What this has meant, exactly, is both a strong continuous belief, and highly situational. From the fall of Rome and its recapture by Belisarius, to the Renaissance of later history, ideals have been carried - or so the story goes, anyway. There is no small truth in the fact that this later empire has focused strongly on classicism and neoclassicism across its history, making it highly traditional and conservative, but its traditions are not exactly like those of other lands.

Pulling on Roman roots and helping to be defined by the pluralism that was ancient Rome and that would become the later empire, a sense of pragmatism, relative tolerance, and one might dare say outright humanism was pervasive throughout the conservative circles of Roman society. This was, of course, seamlessly blended with notions of the divine, and a sort of application of rationalism unto the divine and vice versa. For long ago it was said that the difference between Etruscans and Romans was that while Romans believe lightning occurs because the clouds strike, the Etruscans believe the clouds strike that lightning may occur - God is universal, but perhaps predictable, and the universe has rules that bind it. The old Etruscan augurs haven't gone to rest either, with pagan remnants and nominally Christian fortune tellers being popular figures throughout the empire.

And so Roman society works, bound by the belief that any given individual may bear the light of civilization and honor within themselves, and accepting that there are variations to be found that still fit the scheme. Bound by the philosophy and the styles of the ancients, who nonetheless advocated pragmatism and advancement, who were militaristic and yet unafraid to negotiate and make contracts with those who were quite different indeed from them. A society that appreciates earthly things, luxuries, where the money can flow from market to merchant even if they may be a Jew, or a Greek. The Republican tolerance fits just as well into the urban and mercantile nature of so many cities therein.

The union of the divine and the rational, the supernatural and the natural, upholding Christian values alongside Roman ideals, of thesis and antithesis into synthesis, this synthesis is the ideology of the Romans.
Government Focus : The Western Empire is well aware of its legitimacy, as are its neighbors. As an institution, it has stood for many centuries, with the backing of its Eastern parent to support it. It is a powerful regional player as well, and so need not from uncertainty or insecurity try to project itself unnecessarily unto others as some sort of moral crusader. It will dabble where it feels interest, but this is primarily its decision, nobody else's. The main focus, instead, is domestic and civic in nature. Government officials often have ties to business and artistic enterprises, and the imperial government itself sponsors infrastructure such as the periodic upgrading and repair of the Veran Wall, the construction of roads, highways, and sanitation infrastructure like baths and waterworks, as well as paying out pensions and rationing for times of crisis. The church, in its charitable missions and following the advice of a church father or two, throw their support behind these initiatives wholeheartedly.
Head of State : Cesara Alessandra Udina Belisaria
Head of Government : above
Government Description : Originating as a military governorship ruled by the crown in Constantinople, the ravages of time and practicality have rendered this entirely nominal. The title is now more or less hereditary, , with some gaps allowed for the influence of members of court and the senate in choosing or confirming the exact successor. Although the East has influenced the direction of government, a Latin senate still exists elected by the masses and comprising largely people of significant financial or military status, who tend to gain favor through sponsorship and patronage of the arts up to and including architecture. The hard power of the Senate is ultimately limited, but the members thereon are highly influential all the same.

Majority/State Religion : Latin Chalcedonian Christianity, with guaranteed freedom of worship, and significant Jewish and Pagan minorities.
Religious Description : Under the watchful imperial eye, the Great Schism never did manifest as it did in our reality. There is no schism between the Latins and Greeks in theory, though the practice often differs from the theory. The patriarch of Rome, the Pope, still has very significant influence over things, moreso than his counterpart in Constantinople, but the Emperor reigns supreme above all. Significant colonies of Carthaginian Jews exist in Africa, invited to help fill out the area and given a safe place to live with promised freedom from prosecution and including Papal protections. In the distant colonies, there live mixed religious populations, but indigenous American belief systems certainly still exist among the population. Forms of folk belief, magic systems, and sometimes outright idolatry persist in some regions of Italy as well, and especially in Tuscany - this is exacerbated by a revival movement undertaken in the Renaissance by a wave of Neoplatonic scholars like Gemistus Pletho, as well as the spread of popular classical study.

Economic Ideologies : Regulated State Capitalism
Major Production : Dyes, leather, textiles, wines, luxury items, fine and finished manufactured goods.
Economic Description : A specialized economy for turning raw goods into fine things to flaunt, turning water into fine, the Italian economy is quite competitive and broadly prosperous, albeit highly specialized. They are known, at the moment, for hand-built and fine-tuned machinery (as compared to mass-production, industrialized machines), exquisite leathers, and promulgating locally-dyed and embroidered Byzantine silk to the Western market. These all come in both individual or 'raw' components, as well as finished products. Wines are only another thing on the list, with some speculating that the Western Empire simply creates the most wine in the world per unit of volume. Colonial economies are a bit different, much more agriculturally focused, and modeled in part on the Roman colonia, giving gifts of land as reward for state service and promoting the birth of farmlands in these new territories, and largely with intermixing of Roman and native populations and the growing of native crops. It is, in a sense, an overseen development of a region, rather than specifically the resettlement of a people or the replacement of another. Resource extraction is important, but these would be viewed perhaps more effectively as farming and trade colonies, rather than for the sole purpose of pure extraction.

Development: Modern
Development Description : The Western economy and industry has adapted well to the ages. Although the appreciation for decadent luxury has led to a great many things being built in a hand-crafted, rather than mass-produced, fashion, the industrial capability is still there all the same. As a foremost power of Europe, the West has had to keep up with the rest of the continent by necessity - and for spite of any reliance on their Eastern counterpart. The troublesome terrain of Italy meant that the old Roman highways were a godsend in times past, as they are maintained today, but alternative infrastructure has been in demand for some time. Where terrain is flatter, trains have sprung up to allow movement, but in no small part shipment across the empire is reliant on waterbound transport, with some limited train lines or highways connecting the Adriatic to the Tyrrhenian. In Africa, sheer size has forced the use of trains across its much more favorable landscape to get from one end to the other.

The Western Empire also excels in the field of sanitation infrastructure, perhaps moreso than others, and has kept up its habits of aqueducts, public baths, sewage, and ensuring access to clean water.

Army Description : The army is a carry-over from the Eastern themata, with military subdivisions and land grants ensuring a localized and battle-ready force is always prepared to be drawn up on the borders. Unlike the Eastern Empire, however, the themata follow regional powers and centers of conflict, conforming to what was, at times, only nominally subject city-based powers. Each city, thus, carries its own military legacy and rivalries. The military is largely modernized, perhaps moreso than the Eastern soldiers, due to proximity to the West and even the legacy of the Latins upon it. Being a frontier region, an exarchate, also gave an early emphasis on military development within it to the court at Constantinople. As a result of the localized military, the army as a whole is generally decentralized and grouped by place of origin, rather than forming large and diverse regiments. The discipline, however, suffers not. They are not often grouped into larger legions incorporating people from more than one region, however this allows a smaller-scale, more squad-based style of warfare similar to how the Romans defeated the Phalanx in antiquity. Malleable and focused.
Army Weakness : The army is highly decentralized and localized, leading to smaller units with less diversity. In this regard, a single squad will rarely be able to perform particularly diverse functions, even if as a formation they are more malleable than rigid lines. Being grouped with their regional fellows might incentivize more camaraderie, it also can take a toll on communities if an entire group is injured or killed. Moreover, it is not an effective offensive force, largely being trained to defend the hills of Italy and the sands of Africa, able to defend and garrison an urban setting well but perhaps struggling to capture it to begin with. Cavalry and reconnaissance is largely left to African auxilia, who often have their own equipment and training, and pose a linguistic barrier much stronger than inter-regional ones suffered by the Italians and Dalmatians.
Naval Description : The navy originated as an anti-pirate measure, but grew with the prominence of trade. Once reliant on the East for naval protection during the Middle Ages, the reunification and consolidation of power in the Renaissance allowed the individual shipbuilding traditions of the maritime cities to conglomerate into a more effective navy. The navy plays a much more prominent role in the West accordingly, and just as well considering the larger need for such a thing. The navy is, for the most part, fairly well modernized, and deals with much of the same equipment as the Eastern one. The ships are strong and well-equipped, the sailors often being recruited or conscripted merchants with generations of seafaring experience. A fully functional blue-water and green-water force, it makes an effective offensive force all the same. Hinterland tribes of Slavs and Albanians, though often somewhat neglected by the West, are valued as a source of marines.
Naval Weakness : The navy must compete with the army in many regards, with many preferring the comfortable life of a garrison at home instead of a working one of seabound patrols. Language barriers among the tribal marines and the 'civilized' mariners can lead to some issues as well. The cost of the fleet is substantial, and is partially subsidized by its role as a Merchant Marine as well. This dual purpose means that trade will suffer more than necessary in times of war, while strictly naval peacetime activities are limited. The ships sacrifice some military capability in favor of cargo space and speed, and might be supported by wooden ships when in need.
Further Military Description : Experimental technology

National Goals : Ascendancy to co-emperorship, perhaps even dominance. Glory and wealth, of course.
National Issues : Having less land and manpower than the East, diplomatic barriers, and not being exactly the best at industry even if technically industrialized. Let's not forget the ever-lasting problem of language barrier.
National Figures of Interest : Tuone di Ragusa, Giorgio da Firenze, Leo d'Arezzo, Antonio Farantouri, Asdruele Barco
National Ambition/Aspirations : Gloria in excelsis populo

History : The Greek general Belisarius was said to have been offered by the Ostrogoths the position of the Western Emperor when he laid siege to them. He accepted, only to turn against his Goths and betray them in the name of the court in Constantinople. For this, he was awarded the title Caesar of the West, reflecting his great accomplishment in battle and his everlasting loyalty to the Empire. He had been made the Exarch of Italy appropriately, and when he could no longer conquer and age beset his old bones, he settled in old Rome with his family. The great city had long since lost its importance, replaced by Ravenna and Mediolanum and other sites, but as the glory of all he knew originated with the city of Rome, it only seemed fitting that perhaps, just perhaps, it be given one more chance. Thus, it was born. Belisarius would live only so long to see the Lombards invade, and to personally drive them away with his son by his side.

Under the rule of the son of Belisarius, Nicephorus, there was conflict with the Patriarch of Rome. Nicephorus Belisarion had known the Greek Rite for much of his life. Furthermore, raised by the greatest general of the empire and mothered by the confidant of the empress, Nicephorus had of himself an ego rivaled only by the breadth of the imperial domain. The Roman Patriarch, who demanded submission and humility in accordance with the Latin tradition, grew to despise the decadent Nicephorus, but never dared to challenge him openly until the year 600, upon which a duel was held between the two. Nicephorus won, and the Patriarch was maimed. In but a few short weeks, he passed- and Nicephorus gained the epithet "Slayer of the Latins", known for his disrespect of the Latin ways. What had began initially as a glorious salvation from the hands of the Goths by a great general had quickly turned sour as the struggles between the Latins and Hellenes were emphasized once more. Rejected by his court, one by one, the Exarch grew anxious. Nicephorus, seeing his peril, married with a Latin woman and had five children with her- this gesture a symbol of the unity he had hoped to bring. Although he continued with the Greek Rite for his life, he took special precaution to help mend the wounds between Latins and Greeks. Naming his children in the local Latin, he passed his throne to his eldest Verus.

Verus, the first "Latin" emperor from his Greek brood, and the first since the collapse of the West near 150 years prior, grew in his life as a proper Latin. He spoke Latin, he dressed Latin, and he celebrated Latin holidays with his Latin court- the Italians had regained their position in the world, it had seemed, until all remembered the true power lay at Constantinople. It was by their grace alone that the breed of Belisarius continued to hold the throne, and by their favor towards his grandfather that Verus was allowed to govern the land. He took measure to ensure his fitness in the eyes of Constantinople- reinstating the old legions and fortifying the Alps being his major accomplishments. The fortification he had built on the Alps became known as the Veran Wall, and would be the first of many, many additions in the area.

Drawing from his predecessor, Honorius celebrated his ascension by adding to the Veran Wall. His additions were few, consisting primarily of nearby barracks to help garrison the wall- it was a gesture of support for the defense of the border, but furthermore connected him to his predecessor. This connection would become important, and the next few kings would all follow suit in making some additions to the Veran Wall, be they towers, extra layers, or even an extension entirely. The original, facing only against the lands of the Bavarii and incorporating the mountains of the Alps to fill gaps, would soon become a wonder in itself. It was also during this time that the refugees taken in from Judea and Samaria were redistributed, with promising programs set forth for them in Africa among the dwindling Carthaginians. Set up among these last Phoenicians, the Jews and Samaritans here converted them and kept their culture alive. Indeed, it began to flourish under autonomous rule. Honorius gifted the Temple Relics to the community, and the city of Carthage was repopulated with this Neo-Punic elite. While some scolded the emperor for his restoration of the Carthaginians, the peace and prosperity it brought to Africa paid itself off in interest. By his death, Honorius was celebrated by his old Senatorial enemies, and a new age of stability came.

Time came and went like the tides of the ocean, but in the year 712, the during the Ides of March, the Exarch Caesar Belisarion Severius dies in Venice after succumbing to his wounds by a Germanic blade. He has yet to proclaim a proper heir, and the unity of Italy begins to fall. His twin sons, Antonius and Nero, each take command of a section of the land. Nero, a brave general by heart, takes station in Venice by his father's bedside- here he garrisons the Wall alongside his men. Antonius, meanwhile, moves to Rome as the first properly administrative, non-military, ruler of the land. The court in Constantinople watches eagerly, as if an experiment, to see which of the brothers takes charge over the other, but neither does. It is in this divided reign that the Illyrian Betrayal happens, and many cities of Illyricum simultaneously declare a league of their own separate from the Italian influence. Nero moves quickly with his army, and warns of the precedent should Antonius let such events pass idly. Although Nero secures the loyalties of the Illyrians once more through 6 years of campaigning, the previous state is never recovered and they retain autonomy. It is in this new autonomy that the Dalmatian language, and its regional identity, begins to develop- as well as acting for a breeding ground for the mercantile city-republics that would come to dominate. A small town, Ragusa, begins to dominate by the end of the decade.

Antonius appeared to have won the battle of the brothers, but in his age his council turned against him. Slain by conspirators and with only a single daughter to claim the throne, the Italian cities followed the example of the Illyrians. The rule of Agrippa was rough, and only through the most cunning diplomacy and the most ruthless military action in conjunction with the elderly Nero was she able to, similarly to Nero, regain the allegiance of the Italians under different conditions. Unlike Illyria, however, the Italians failed to produce a single strong city to overcome and dominate the others - remaining divided instead. This played to Agrippa's favor, and she learned a "Divide and Conquer" tactic that she would later write about in her Codex Italicum. She would marry off her children to the local mercantile nobility, the lesser patricians, of her vassal cities and those of Nero to secure a general allegiance, but this would only serve to strengthen the autonomy of the cities. Agrippa's greatest triumph, however, came in the reconquest of Africa - launched from Sicily, the capture of Carthage was quick and decisive. Contacts in the city, especially the Neo-Punic population that the Western Empire had fostered and promised to, were eager to the Roman aid. From this base, Berber tribe after Berber tribe were bribed to harass the opposition as the legions swept through Libya, with Judeo-Punic connections informing communities to raise their banners in preparation. The Latin and Punic majority was warmed by the return of Roman authority, much to the chagrin of the warlords, as well as their tribes and mercenaries that they'd brought with them. Agrippa's Triumph was said to be legendary, a model for future celebrations of state for centuries to come.

As the world entered into the Middle Ages, the West began to brace for the changing world. While the East struggled against the Eastern hordes, the West was faced with age-old barbarian enemies. Old Roman attempts to maintain control over Caesar's Province in the south of Gaul were losing their effect, the Mohamedan regime seeming to counter Roman influence at every turn. A soft war began, a war of words, of faith, of influence. Meanwhile, to the far north, Frankish warlords slowly consumed both Roman and Muslim influence, spreading barbarity to the corners of Gaul city by city. When a Frank declared himself the new emperor, Agrippa was furious at the Papal response of relative neutrality and even some minor support. Though the debate continued to rage of emperor versus pontifex, it was mostly her gender that was called upon for support of the new Frank. Calling on the support of the Carthaginians and her sons-in-law, her position as the unequivocal leader of the Western Romans was reaffirmed. When it was reaffirmed as such by the Senate, the Pope quieted to a fully neutral position. To avoid any more such disturbances, the unusual circumstance of nominally appointed military governorship having been passed to a woman hereditarily, Agrippa took to law to reaffirm herself and her position. It was thus decreed that, like the Etruscans on which Rome had built itself, the Italians would make official that which had been known since the days of Ulpia Severina, and since Theodora: the rights and dignity of women. Although women were not allowed in the Senate or to participate in its vote, many offices were fully legalized in an official capacity. Thus, no barbarians or treasonous pontifeces could question her leadership.

With the collapse of central authority in Gaul, the Romans made their move once more. With some military conquest, ostensibly to "Restore order" to the region, and a large deal of Soft Power politics. Emperor after emperor, using the weight of merchant connections, injected Romanitas into Occitania. It was said that the people of that region spoke much more proper Latin, quite closer to the Latin of Italy than the barbaric "French" tongue. With his armored legions, the Emperor took to court in that land, sending senators and even himself as a judge to resolve disputes among the petty lords of Occitania. Land disputes between cities, resource rights over fields, guilds here and there, the Romans had an answer for everything. The affirmation of the Roman church in these lands grew stronger by the day, and the French were starting to seem not so bad after all. These wild barbarians had embraced a very Roman sense of things, broadly speaking, and the emperors began to refer to the lands of the French lords as Aeduia, in memory of Caesar's closest allies in his Gallic campaign. The free republics of the empire enjoyed increasing relations, and without an imperial title to threaten them, the emperors grew into it too.

Then came the Crusades. Holy wars to reclaim lost imperial territory for the East. While many in the West initially saw the pleading of the East as something worthy of mockery on stage, the cries of Deus Vult from Rome itself led the way to a turn of opinion. When asked for a show of support for the Crusades, Emperor Valente gave a speech at the Apostolic Palace to get the assembled Italian, Dalmatian, French, Spanish, even African, crowd to roar in approval. So the wars went, the empire focusing its soft power in Gaul, its hard power supporting the East, interrupted only by the rise of a peasant commune in Rome to remove Papal authority from the city. The emperor made a move from Ravenna with his personal retinue to seize Rome from the peasants. With a mixture of negotiation, siege, and threats, the city was recaptured. Instead of handing it back to the Pope, he instead moved the capital to that eternal city - declaring that the people of Rome had spoken, that it was the true heart of everything the West stood for, and that it was long past time to reclaim the city instead of the East's preferred Ravenna or the autonomous Milan. To appease the peasants, however, he also extended the Senatorial vote from patricians to commoners all, even if in practice the patricians were the vast majority of senators regardless. It was in the context of these holy wars to restore lost Roman territory that Africa was reclaimed as well, a more imminent concern for the Westerners, and a triumph was held down the streets of Carthage upon its recapture.

Not all in the Crusades was well, though. The Free Republic of Venice sacked some Dalmatian counterparts, culminating in the sacking of Constantinople and the founding of a rival Latin Empire in the East. Although the Western empire somewhat appreciated the sentiment of the emperor in Thessalonike, the East demanded the support of the West. Sympathizing with the East over its Frankokratia, recalling when such was threatened upon Agrippa, the emperor sent some forces to aid the East in its efforts. In the tradition of Belisarius, the West restored order across Epirus and Hellas, isolating the other Latin Empire from potential allies. When the East won, the West returned its Greek territories, with a few new trade ports established along the way. Venice faced no punishment for its role in the fight. Time marched ever onward.

The fourteenth century was a period of expansion. Influence in Gaul reached a critical peak, and the jurisdiction of the Western emperor was being steadily formalized on a city-by-city basis. As more disputes came to be solved, more influence gained, more tithe sent, the emperors began to twist things to their favor. If land came into dispute, it might go to the West. If a city needed an appointed leader, it fell to a senator to rule. If a war came to be and simply could not be determined, the Western legions helped the side most favorable to them. When the Plague rolled around, this only got worse, as the West grabbed for land and people not under the effects of the vile blight. By the fifteenth century, it began to slow, but any semblance that the Occitans were not under Western dominion was quickly fading. Like the free cities of Italy and Dalmatia, the people of Provincia were brought into the fold as autonomous holdings. In the classic fashion, they likewise began to compete with the Italian and Dalmatian free cities. Mercenary armies flew between them all, as did the daggers of assassins and the ships of great trade. While the previous century saw a rise of the Italians in dominance, the rise of the Rinascimento, a rebirth where Italian powers began to consolidate their countrysides, directly contributed to increasing centralization. Venice, Genoa, Ragusa, Vicla (Veglia), Florence, Naples, and Amalfi together owned the majority of Italy and Dalmatia, and most of the country's wealth. While the classics had never been truly abandoned, the centralization of wealth played a crucial part in the rebirth and the renewal into a neoclassical age.

Over the course of the fifteenth century, the exploratory nature of the Italo-Dalmatians in their previous capital ventures to other lands brought them further and further. By 1492, the first Italian had set foot in the New World. It was under this prospering that the Italians finally began to eclipse the Dalmatians, gaining a factor of exponential growth. However, the line of Belisarius was running thin- the Republican politics had all but killed the Italian half of his line- leaving behind the Viclasun line to take charge. Stemming from Vicla, also called Veglia and, in Latin, Curicum, this unlikely progeny of the great Belisarius through no less than 4 cadet branches had managed to survive purely because their republic had long ago been eclipsed by the nearby Ragusa. Rising to the throne due to their well-recorded, if distant, lineage, the first Dalmatian Exarch went by Domagna.

Domagna Udaina was a ruthless and cunning man. Long suppressed by his neighboring Venice and Ragusa, he gained an enmity for the free republics of the exarchate. Cooperating with the Medici of Firenze, Domagna established a power base in Central Italy, a strong alliance across the land. He first chose to reign in Genoa, who stood distant from the others and with a distrust for their own duxe, the citizens of Genoa sold their city out to Domagna. Using this power base, he reaffirmed the loyalty of the traditionally monarchical Napoli to move on Amalfi. Half of Amalfi's patricians were of Greek origin, and despite a notable military presence, none was needed for Domagna to seize power. His ties to the Greek emperor, as well as his relatively nonpartisan origin, meant a nonviolent swearing of fealty. As Venice made its move against Ragusa, historically held back by the limited influence of the exarch but now with a doge reckless enough to ignore it, their city was invaded under the cover of night. In the year 1543, the "Night of Tears" occurred- Domagna infiltrated Venice with his combined Italian army and wrecked havoc upon the streets. Many of the town guard were slaughtered, and their bodies thrown into the canals. The island flowed in red for 3 days after the fatal event, and the doge was forced to surrender. As he had captured Ragusa and even appointed a new Rector, that republic had been cleared out of the way as well.

Domagna, in his violent reign lasting from 1516-1552, became known as "the Slayer". His son, Jugno, tried initially to rule with a soft hand, but in the second month of his reign realized the error of this. He chose instead, to invite all the dukes of his realm- the duxe, the doge, the rettore, to watch him compete in games. He raced for Blue in chariots, and won a tzykanisterion tournament. The games, lasting a full month on their own, ended with Jugno inviting any patricians who wished to assert their independence a duel to the death for the opportunity. He went so far as to promise his crown to any who would fight him. After the demonstration of his abilities in the games, however, none stood forward. All throughout his life, Jugno would insist the offer was always on the table, and made it to each newly elected duke of his realm. Through such shows of force and fearlessness, as well as his well-meaning heart and his administrative excellence in improving the unity and strength of his realm, the Italians and Dalmatians alike took to calling him agosto, the first Exarch since Belisarius to ever be called by such a title in any capacity.

Jugno would attempt an invasion of Gaul to restore the lost Roman hegemony there. Senatorial support was strong, with Catholic elements wishing to crush the heretics, and an increasing Neoclassical faction inspired by Gemistus Pletho, the lingering pagan peasants in the Italian countryside, and the Rinascimento movement, called to restore Roman rule to Gaul more broadly. They were sort of Latins, were they not? Aeduia, the allies of Caesar? Jugno acted swiftly and decisively, only to be met with a strong and unexpected resistance from a new conglomerated republic. The first war that the Western Romans would undertake as a fully reunified power would test the strength of their unity, and Jugno would die before it finished.

In the chaos of succession, Empress Catarina took the throne only to learn that, without leadership, without certainty, without their unifying emperor, the Veran Wall had been passed, the legions stationed there weakened by their divisions. Rallying up an army in the center, she had the navy attempt to cut off any supply lines while she met the French army on the field of battle over and over again. Facing defeat, she agreed to the humiliating surrender in 1601 to recognize French independence once and for all, at which point she is said to have stated "So be it, the Gauls choose barbaritas". The internal divisions within the country were initially blamed for the defeat, but Catarina shifted the blame to rest on the shoulders of the senate, which had acted in regency at the time of the fall of the Veran Wall. Furthermore, she blamed the Pope for instigating the war in the first place, and exercised her imperial authority to have him removed from office. This was the first demonstration of Caesaropapism in near a millennium, apart from the minor example of the proper annexation of Rome centuries prior. This strengthened the Neoclassical movement, which had been gaining strength since the 14th century, among the elites of Roman society, and Catarina became known as Catarina the Pagan. In the elections of 1605, the senate was a pagan majority. With this pagan majority, Catarina enacted further reforms for the rights of women, teetering the precarious position of the pagans over a vastly Catholic populace. This included conditional female suffrage, for those of the Patrician class and those who acted as the heads of their families. It was said that the 'vote of every man' enacted earlier had been renamed by her to the 'vote of every family', thus by her logic that as the man was not always the head of the family, was not always the main moneymaker, and way not always the most influential, women should gain the right if they meet the conditions. As patrician families had always enjoyed special privileges, and patrician women were more likely to lead families, the suffrage was thus universal for them.

The great changes brought by the Treaty of Pavia and Catarina's rule, her conformity to the Rinascimento, inspired new theatrical and operatic works. Well past her death in 1647, Roman culture flourished. Although the 15th century brought many new and contemporary stories to the stage, this new theater brought grand epics of old, stories of emperors and demigods, classical mythology in total, to life. Names like Hercules and Ovid and Democritus flew at balls and on stage, as well as at convivia and in the senate. This all came to a head in 1755, when a Corsican senator by the name of Pasquale Paoli advocated universal female suffrage. The emperor took kindly, and this law became known as the Livian Reform, after the first empress in Roman history.

It was a golden age. Science, philosophy, and art flew as it never had before, with the printed word spreading these teachings faster than the ancients could've dreamed. The Library of Alexandria was little in comparison. Patricians and imperial family members heartily adopted the patronage system once run by the free republics of the land, while interfaith dialogue between pagan and Christian elites, as well as the Judaized Carthaginians, provided an exceptional home to tolerance in the West. The names of great polymaths were on the tongues of everyone, from the centuries-old work of Leonardo da Vinci, to Leon Battista Alberti, the economics of Luca Pacioli, the observations of Galileo and Zucchi, the shocking discoveries of Volta and Galvani, not to mention contributions by Dalmatians such as Giorgio Armeno, Stefano Gradi, the Nicolas of Nale and of Gozzi, and even from non-Latins such as Ruggiero Boscovich. A true flourishing throughout the 18th century, grounded in the works of the past and the peoples now reviewing them.

This came to a halt with the French warlord, Guerin. He brought a great reckoning to everything Roman. He broke past the Veran Wall, he tore through the north. The Roman army struggled to face him, it turned into a war of attrition. It is said that, as the Roman army continually retreated south, and he followed, his troops were jeered by passing towns. They had not forgotten the humiliation centuries prior, they chanted to them - "Gaulois vont chez", during which a French officer at one point rounded up the men of the village and gave them a lesson in French grammar. One stole the officer's horse and rode south in the middle of this, and from then on the villages they passed near and through told them the same message correctly. The Romans fought all the way to Rome itself, but there too were forced to retreat. The French navy, en route, was crushed by the Italian pride, and his supplies are thereon cut off. Running low, he establishes the vassal republic of Etruria and makes an ordered retreat back past the Alps. With the aid of Eastern troops, he is pushed until gone from Italy, and the French prisoners are triumphed through the the Eternal City that they had terrorized not long ago. It was made explicitly clear to them that, since their republic had declared its full separation from Rome those centuries prior and acted in atrocity against the Romans, that whatever kinship medieval Latins might've felt towards the Gauls was severed, that they had proven their lack of Romanitas through these actions and confirmed the fears of the Italians that the Gauls had not abandoned their barbarian nature after all.

The bloody warlord from France died, and his puppet republic immediately fell into trouble. The emperor, Jugno, sent a letter to them in Etruscan - the language preserved in the dictionaries of Claudius still preserved in Rome - to hold a vote. When it was held, the citizens, remembering their Romanitas, voted Jugno as the new leader. After only a matter of months, the republic was peacefully re-annexed. The French prisoners were paraded through northern Italy, being told to go home by the people of Tuscany, of Genoa, and finally by the border garrison as they were dumped on the other side of the Alps, at the exact spot the wall had been beaten prior. It was, in essence, a "de-invasion".

The 19th century saw much change, but also much the same. The Western Empire never recovered from the invasion, and their golden age ceased. Although classical scholarship of that age's like still continues strongly, the great debates, the treatises, the reports, the convivia, have all been reduced to but memory and ceremony, no longer feeling as if a living practice, but instead on life support. Italian technology began to fall behind, and the empire spent more of its money playing catch-up with the newest inventions, meaning less was devoted to patronage. It was not until the 1850s that the empire gained a more secure position in the world, settling in as a major power once again, if slightly behind the rest of Europe on more than few things. The luxury market was resolidified in its new form of furs, silks, and leathers, as it had been for centuries and yet breathed life anew. As we enter into this new age, perhaps the Romans will try to claim their place once more, or perhaps they will begin once more to fade. Only time will tell if the Romans, both West and East, will see another century yet.
RP Sample: :|

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

Hey I just noticed on the map but I already laid claim to the Bahama's on my app. Florida is a bit of a soft underbelly/weak spot of mine hence controlling those islands is important from a defensive standpoint. Hence I'm going to insists on keeping that. The islands are small so it's kinda hard to draw in them but still.

I'd be happy to work something out, then, and I'll try to check your app to see if there's a viable transition point or if I should just scrap it altogether.

EDIT: Given the lack of history in the app thus far, I'm sorry, but I really can't uh figure out how to find a compromise of some sort

[TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON]

Hey Tracian sorry to be a bother. I just wanted to make it a bit easier for you to understand the Japan I am painting.

In this timeline, the Japanese population is growing a bit faster, and there is greater need for territorial expansion. This Japan is not hindered by isolation and has kept in frequent trade with Asia and whomever wants to do trade. As a result this Japan has seen two Shoguns in the past 100 years reaching to expand their influence and colonize lands to feed their population and fuel their armies. There was never any influence from the west, and there were no Americans coming over to force them to open up trade. As a result, the Shogun has stayed in power as military dictator of the country. The Emperor is nothing more than a symbolic figurehead much like the IRL one today. He gives speeches, holds ceremonies, and lives a life of riches. Nothing else. He has zero control over the government. The Shogun has cemented his control by creating a constitution, and his form of government sees him as the absolute leader of the entire nation. He is advised by a council of aristocrats, military leaders, and former leaders of the different kingdoms, but whatever he says goes. He faces opposition due to this both within the military and the public, but for the most part, the major rebellions and revolts have been put down, their leaders dead.

Some military differences than IRL is that the Japanese military has mainly focused on fighting natives and inside revolts, and lack the experience. (IRL Japan had fought the Chinese in the First Sino War, and just beat the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.) But the military is taking influence from the Koreans and Chinese, looking at their tactics and learning from them so the Japanese Army is trained to fight a modern force. (This is kinda like the problem IRL America faces right now. They have fought terrorist all this time, and now are turning back to getting ready to fight conventional wars, but this is something modern commanders and their troops have no experience in.) Another difference, is that this Japan has kept conscription in place, meaning it has a potential to have a relatively large active force but for the time being doesn't as it faces resource shortages.

[Tracian Empire]

Hey Tracian sorry to be a bother. I just wanted to make it a bit easier for you to understand the Japan I am painting.

In this timeline, the Japanese population is growing a bit faster, and there is greater need for territorial expansion. This Japan is not hindered by isolation and has kept in frequent trade with Asia and whomever wants to do trade. As a result this Japan has seen two Shoguns in the past 100 years reaching to expand their influence and colonize lands to feed their population and fuel their armies. There was never any influence from the west, and there were no Americans coming over to force them to open up trade. As a result, the Shogun has stayed in power as military dictator of the country. The Emperor is nothing more than a symbolic figurehead much like the IRL one today. He gives speeches, holds ceremonies, and lives a life of riches. Nothing else. He has zero control over the government. The Shogun has cemented his control by creating a constitution, and his form of government sees him as the absolute leader of the entire nation. He is advised by a council of aristocrats, military leaders, and former leaders of the different kingdoms, but whatever he says goes. He faces opposition due to this both within the military and the public, but for the most part, the major rebellions and revolts have been put down, their leaders dead.

Some military differences than IRL is that the Japanese military has mainly focused on fighting natives and inside revolts, and lack the experience. (IRL Japan had fought the Chinese in the First Sino War, and just beat the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.) But the military is taking influence from the Koreans and Chinese, looking at their tactics and learning from them so the Japanese Army is trained to fight a modern force. (This is kinda like the problem IRL America faces right now. They have fought terrorist all this time, and now are turning back to getting ready to fight conventional wars, but this is something modern commanders and their troops have no experience in.) Another difference, is that this Japan has kept conscription in place, meaning it has a potential to have a relatively large active force but for the time being doesn't as it faces resource shortages.

I understand, but that is not you coming up with a original new concept either. You started by making a Japan that was very close to what existed in real life, and then you made changes in order to conform yourself with the realities of this world and timeline. There is not enough originality coming from you and your ideas, and you also do not have a point of start and a buildup. We have some complicated alt-histories here, but all nations have a change at the core of their concept - the Byzantines are reborn as a direct effect of the failure of the Fourth Crusade in my app, the Western Roman Empire is reborn through the coronation of Belisarius, France becomes Reformed in opposition to imperial authority, at so on.

My personal advice is for you to come with a divergence and a concept tied to it.

At the same time, you have also not answered my other concern.

[Tracian Empire]

(Image)

Full Nation Name : Res Publica Francorum. formal/legal; La République Française, French; The French Commonwealth (not the "French Republic"), English. France, colloquial, or "la République." There is a strong political antipathy toward the idea of empire, and so France's overseas possessions are usually euphemized as Greater France, or La Plus Grande France.

Alright, so, I do want to start by saying that this app is absolutely incredible. The ammount of detail present here is pretty much unbelievable, and this is what makes reviewing it a bit difficult

I know that this app was already accepted once, in the previous iteration, and that our discussions there led to a compromise, but that was happening with a different OP and management. I am obviously always trying to be objective, but there are a few things that I thought were issues back then, and that I feel like I have to mention here. But I'm sure that they can be discussed xD

The first issue is a bit more difficult to describe, and it's the main reason it took me so long to finish this review. I feel like there are just several contradictions in some parts of the app. It might be more of an issue of wording than of concepts necessarily, but it does get a bit confusing sometimes. The country has reasonable taxes, and yet it sustains extensive public education and public welfare systems. It is very free-market and capitalistic, and yet the government controls and funds important parts of the industry. It industrialized a lot more aggressively and rapidly than France in real life, and yet it seems to enjoy extensive worker rights and has powerful unions. It's industrialized and urbanized, with a declining agriculture, and yet it is the largest wine producer in the world, an honor that France doesn't have in real life either. It is incredibly well focused on the army and yet it has a navy that is sufficient to control the Western Mediterranean, while it has two neighbors that would presumably have stronger naval forces. The Army is not restricted by tradition and always prides itself on innovation, and yet its units have traditions going back centuries. I know that this sounds like nitpicking, but my point is that it's just too easy to read the app and perceive the country as too perfect. I do feel like the country should have a bit more issues from some points of view to balance things out, but I'm not sure what to suggest since I don't want to intrude on your concept too much, you know?


Now, the second issue is a little more concrete - it's about the army. I of course do understand that a strong army is very important to your concept of this France, and I have nothing against the French Army being among the, or perhaps even the best armed force around - but I do feel like it's just a bit too powerful in some aspects. The present need for the army to be strong would also be somewhat decreased when compared to France's past. France defeated its rivals just a few decades ago, and it would make sense for the military to grow somewhat complacent because of such a victory. Looking at it objectively, France isn't in an impossible situation anymore. The one traditional weak border of France, the northeastern one, is shared with a Zentraleuropa that has just been spiraling further and further out of control,so it would be clear to any foreign observer that the divided military of the Germans is not a worthy rival. And to the south, the borders are easily defensible, and are shared with an enemy also focused on defense in the WRE, and an with an enemy that doesn't strike me as particularly offensive either in Spain. I do think that a certain complacence in the High Command would be an acceptable weakness to balance the otherwise excellent army, and if you have any other proposals instead, feel free to share them!

Continuing with the army however, there are two things that are going to receive a hard no from me - the French theorizing the creeping barrage, and preparing to use gas attacks. And the reason for this is two-fold. The first is that I simply don't believe that wargames and theories are enough to make the general staff come up with something that took two or three years of invaluable and brutal world war experience for real life nations to devise. Even more so since the circumstances that could compel the French to think about that are not fully here. The creeping barrage and the usage of poison gas were both designed in order to break the stalemate of trenches. Not only has France already broken through the defenses of its enemies a few decades ago, but like mentioned above, the one theater of war where such tactics might be used is not enough of an issue. The creeping barrage and poison gas would both be more difficult to use in the Alps or in the Pyrenees, and are as such unlikely to come up as theories about how to break through the Varian Wall as an example. And the second reason is more from an OOC perspective - the French Army is already a terrifying force, granting it tactics and weapons that were properly developed a decade later would be unfair to everyone else. As for machine guns, I am a bit more on the fence, but I tend to not believe that the French would integrate it on a platoon level - machine guns at this point are somewhat heavy and defensive in purpose, which would be contrary to the French offensive strategies. If I remember correctly, the German Army, that was the most advanced around in real life, was only integrating them at regiment level before WW1.


The third issue is the smallest - in regards to history, Kai is against the French just easily punching through the Varian Wall, advancing in the WRE without any resistance and sacking Rome during the wars of Guerin. It doesn't make that much sense - advancing through the fortified Alps would be difficult and bloody even for the best of troops, and the Romans would have fought every step of the way, while sacking Rome in the end doesn't achieve anything in particular - it just seems like something to crown the French victory. It is still perfectly fine for the French to invade the WRE and win, but there would have been resistance, and the further south they would have advanced, the more violent the attacks would have been during their withdrawal.

[Tracian Empire]

This is my app post. If there is any need to revise or any mistakes, just inform me. My history begins at 1800s, as I wanted to leave the history before that to the Spanish player.

Flag:

([url=https://i.postimg.cc/y80mpTTt/1024px-Flag-of-Argentina-1818-svg.png]Image)[/url]

Full Nation Name : Confederate States of South America (CSSA)

The concept looks interesting, but I think that adding a few more details in some spots would be great!

I'm not sure exactly how to formulate it, but I'd like you to explain why in this timeline, the state became the CSSA and didn't break up like the United Provinces of South America did in real life. I am not familiar enough with South American history to give you ideas, but I know that this period was very volatile. There would have certainly been other factions revolting alongside or against García Óñez , how would he have brought them under his control? How would have have dealt with the debates between centralization and decentralization? I read a little bit about the United Provinces, and there seem to be a lot of interesting things there that you could use. Óñez sounds like an incredible historical figure, so a few more details about him would be great, even more so since he seems to have tried to foster republicanism after his dictatorship and so on.

Other than that - a few more details about the exact powers of the president and his relations with the Congress would be important, and a few more details about religion would be intriguing to hear - do your people still consider themselves to be Catholics? Economically, I know that Argentina had a similar economic boom so it is realistic, but you could try to ask around in the OOC and find some nations that would have been willing to invest into your nation. I'd also personally make a distinction between a modern southern part of the country, and a semi-industralized or close to primitive north maybe, around the Andes?

And the last thing - how would the CSSA be treating its natives? Especially if it owns Bolivia, it would have considerable numbers of them. Is this South American identity built around the Spanish-speaking colonial culture only, or has the government tried to include the natives too? I know that real life regimes around this time weren't that friendly with the natives, so you could mention some tensions and hostility.

If you need any help, feel free to ask!

[Axis Asteroid]

As always, I apologize for my slow reviews today, but I have been working on my own app too. I'll try to review all apps tonight, regardless of whether I sleep or not xD

I know you’re going through the apps like I machine rn, but as someone who just woke up from a nap, I just wanted to let you know that there’s no rush Trace. People here can wait, so prioritize your own well being first, esp in times like these.

[Tracian Empire]

As always, I apologize for my slow reviews today, but I have been working on my own app too. I'll try to review all apps tonight, regardless of whether I sleep or not xD

I know you’re going through the apps like I machine rn, but as someone who just woke up from a nap, I just wanted to let you know that there’s no rush Trace. People here can wait, so prioritize your own well being first, esp in times like these.

AltDiv regularly dying before it can even properly start tends to say otherwise

But yeah, thank you, I'll be alright xD

[Reverend Norv]

(Image)

Full Nation Name : Res Publica Francorum. formal/legal; La République Française, French; The French Commonwealth (not the "French Republic"), English. France, colloquial, or "la République." There is a strong political antipathy toward the idea of empire, and so France's overseas possessions are usually euphemized as Greater France, or La Plus Grande France.

Alright, so, I do want to start by saying that this app is absolutely incredible. The ammount of detail present here is pretty much unbelievable, and this is what makes reviewing it a bit difficult

I know that this app was already accepted once, in the previous iteration, and that our discussions there led to a compromise, but that was happening with a different OP and management. I am obviously always trying to be objective, but there are a few things that I thought were issues back then, and that I feel like I have to mention here. But I'm sure that they can be discussed xD

The first issue is a bit more difficult to describe, and it's the main reason it took me so long to finish this review. I feel like there are just several contradictions in some parts of the app. It might be more of an issue of wording than of concepts necessarily, but it does get a bit confusing sometimes. The country has reasonable taxes, and yet it sustains extensive public education and public welfare systems. It is very free-market and capitalistic, and yet the government controls and funds important parts of the industry. It industrialized a lot more aggressively and rapidly than France in real life, and yet it seems to enjoy extensive worker rights and has powerful unions. It's industrialized and urbanized, with a declining agriculture, and yet it is the largest wine producer in the world, an honor that France doesn't have in real life either. It is incredibly well focused on the army and yet it has a navy that is sufficient to control the Western Mediterranean, while it has two neighbors that would presumably have stronger naval forces. The Army is not restricted by tradition and always prides itself on innovation, and yet its units have traditions going back centuries. I know that this sounds like nitpicking, but my point is that it's just too easy to read the app and perceive the country as too perfect. I do feel like the country should have a bit more issues from some points of view to balance things out, but I'm not sure what to suggest since I don't want to intrude on your concept too much, you know?


Now, the second issue is a little more concrete - it's about the army. I of course do understand that a strong army is very important to your concept of this France, and I have nothing against the French Army being among the, or perhaps even the best armed force around - but I do feel like it's just a bit too powerful in some aspects. The present need for the army to be strong would also be somewhat decreased when compared to France's past. France defeated its rivals just a few decades ago, and it would make sense for the military to grow somewhat complacent because of such a victory. Looking at it objectively, France isn't in an impossible situation anymore. The one traditional weak border of France, the northeastern one, is shared with a Zentraleuropa that has just been spiraling further and further out of control,so it would be clear to any foreign observer that the divided military of the Germans is not a worthy rival. And to the south, the borders are easily defensible, and are shared with an enemy also focused on defense in the WRE, and an with an enemy that doesn't strike me as particularly offensive either in Spain. I do think that a certain complacence in the High Command would be an acceptable weakness to balance the otherwise excellent army, and if you have any other proposals instead, feel free to share them!

Continuing with the army however, there are two things that are going to receive a hard no from me - the French theorizing the creeping barrage, and preparing to use gas attacks. And the reason for this is two-fold. The first is that I simply don't believe that wargames and theories are enough to make the general staff come up with something that took two or three years of invaluable and brutal world war experience for real life nations to devise. Even more so since the circumstances that could compel the French to think about that are not fully here. The creeping barrage and the usage of poison gas were both designed in order to break the stalemate of trenches. Not only has France already broken through the defenses of its enemies a few decades ago, but like mentioned above, the one theater of war where such tactics might be used is not enough of an issue. The creeping barrage and poison gas would both be more difficult to use in the Alps or in the Pyrenees, and are as such unlikely to come up as theories about how to break through the Varian Wall as an example. And the second reason is more from an OOC perspective - the French Army is already a terrifying force, granting it tactics and weapons that were properly developed a decade later would be unfair to everyone else. As for machine guns, I am a bit more on the fence, but I tend to not believe that the French would integrate it on a platoon level - machine guns at this point are somewhat heavy and defensive in purpose, which would be contrary to the French offensive strategies. If I remember correctly, the German Army, that was the most advanced around in real life, was only integrating them at regiment level before WW1.


The third issue is the smallest - in regards to history, Kai is against the French just easily punching through the Varian Wall, advancing in the WRE without any resistance and sacking Rome during the wars of Guerin. It doesn't make that much sense - advancing through the fortified Alps would be difficult and bloody even for the best of troops, and the Romans would have fought every step of the way, while sacking Rome in the end doesn't achieve anything in particular - it just seems like something to crown the French victory. It is still perfectly fine for the French to invade the WRE and win, but there would have been resistance, and the further south they would have advanced, the more violent the attacks would have been during their withdrawal.

We can absolutely discuss all of those issues. We reached a compromise before. I'm sure we can do the same now.

I get the "have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too" objection to some parts of the app. I think some of those things need to be changed, some were a matter of bad writing, and some I'm willing to defend. I'm going to go through your list, and respond to each issue.

The tension between free-market economics and defense contracts, and between public welfare and mid-level taxes, and between industrialization and unionization - all of those, I think, represent the same fundamental point, and it's one that I'll defend. France is a multiparty democracy. Its politics are a politics of compromise. France is not the most free-market, business-friendly state in Europe. That honor goes to Scandinavia. It is not the most militarized, state-directed economy in the world. That is the Adamite Order, or maybe the Taiping. It's somewhere in between: striking a balance between competing interests through democratic bargaining. That accounts for a lot of the "both-and" tone of the French economy.

But at a deeper level, I think the French economy also makes sense as a cohesive whole - since those factors you mentioned can also be paired up in different ways. Taxes are somewhat low because of high levels of unionization: since the French middle class is large and has more taxable income, you can tax everybody at lower levels and come up with the same amount of money. That public revenue, in turn, can fund further, aggressive industrialization (through defense contracts) and public welfare systems: it is a kind of virtuous cycle. A well-educated workforce with lots of industrial jobs then feeds back into worker unionization and democratic engagement. I don't think these features are as inconsistent as they seem; in fact, I think they are mutually reinforcing. As I understand it, that kind of outside-the-box thinking is part of the point in Alt-Div.

On the other hand, you are right about wine production, and agriculture more broadly. I will gladly cede that right to whomever wants it; the WRE seems like a plausible candidate. That is just a fair catch, especially since France is now likely more reliant on agricultural imports from India.

With regard to the Army, I hear you once again. I am glad we agree that, given France's strategic position, an extremely powerful army is a logical necessity. Thus, I accept your primary critique: it would make a lot of sense for the French General Staff to become somewhat overconfident under current circumstances.

That said, I want to draw a distinction between overconfidence and complacency. The French General Staff probably regards its army as invincible. That overconfidence in and of itself is a weakness. But it sees its army as invincible precisely because it is not complacent: because it is constantly running wargames, testing new equipment, innovating and changing. That creates issues of its own, as my app reflects. But it doesn't lead to an army resting on its laurels and failing to keep up with the times. This also ties into your point about how the French Army has both distinguished traditions and a high level of innovation: its traditional identity reflects its hubris and overconfidence, while its innovation reflects its refusal to fall into complacency.

So that's the compromise I would propose: overconfidence but not complacency. An army that underestimates its opponents, and makes mistakes accordingly, but continues to innovate constantly at the same time. I hope that preserves my essential concept for the French Army while incorporating your critique.

When it comes to the hard no's, I will yield on two of the three: I will scrap the creeping barrage, and scrap the poison gas. Your arguments for why the French Army would fail to come up with those are completely convincing. Machine guns, I think, are a different story. The machine guns that the French have integrated at the platoon level are the equivalent of the Madsen gun or the Benet-Mercie or the Chauchat, not of the (heavy, cumbersome) Maxim. IRL, in 1903, the French military was already talking about how "the machine gun must learn to walk." While nobody took that advice in our timeline, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that an alternative armed force could have done so. The technology already existed to make it happen.

With regard to the history, I am prepared to compromise again, but I want to raise an issue in return: Kai's app already includes a lot of French humiliation in this same period - POWs being marched to the border through jeering crowds, and so on. I think that balances out the embarrassment of the sack of Rome. That said, I will play up the Verian Wall campaign more, representing it as a brutal slog rather than a triumph. That's a fair critique. When it comes to Rome, here's what I propose: either both Kai and I tone down our embarrassment of each other during this period, or we agree - in essence - that one ill turn deserves another, and that each app paints this period as a pretty brutal time for the other nation. Personally, given the trauma of the era, I prefer the latter option. But I'll accept either.

I think that covers everything, but I might be wrong. Did I miss anything? What do you think?

[Alt Div Admin]

The map and list have been updated, as usual, if you notice any mistakes, just say so and I'll do my best to fix them!


And the IC is up! For those who apps haven't been accepted yet, don't worry about it. Inactive reservations will be cleansed tomorrow, but if you have an app that we're working on it doesn't apply to you xD

~Thrace

[Axis Asteroid]

Hey Tracian sorry to be a bother. I just wanted to make it a bit easier for you to understand the Japan I am painting.

In this timeline, the Japanese population is growing a bit faster, and there is greater need for territorial expansion. This Japan is not hindered by isolation and has kept in frequent trade with Asia and whomever wants to do trade. As a result this Japan has seen two Shoguns in the past 100 years reaching to expand their influence and colonize lands to feed their population and fuel their armies. There was never any influence from the west, and there were no Americans coming over to force them to open up trade. As a result, the Shogun has stayed in power as military dictator of the country. The Emperor is nothing more than a symbolic figurehead much like the IRL one today. He gives speeches, holds ceremonies, and lives a life of riches. Nothing else. He has zero control over the government. The Shogun has cemented his control by creating a constitution, and his form of government sees him as the absolute leader of the entire nation. He is advised by a council of aristocrats, military leaders, and former leaders of the different kingdoms, but whatever he says goes. He faces opposition due to this both within the military and the public, but for the most part, the major rebellions and revolts have been put down, their leaders dead.

Some military differences than IRL is that the Japanese military has mainly focused on fighting natives and inside revolts, and lack the experience. (IRL Japan had fought the Chinese in the First Sino War, and just beat the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.) But the military is taking influence from the Koreans and Chinese, looking at their tactics and learning from them so the Japanese Army is trained to fight a modern force. (This is kinda like the problem IRL America faces right now. They have fought terrorist all this time, and now are turning back to getting ready to fight conventional wars, but this is something modern commanders and their troops have no experience in.) Another difference, is that this Japan has kept conscription in place, meaning it has a potential to have a relatively large active force but for the time being doesn't as it faces resource shortages.

If you want a template for the type of historical divergence needed for the RP, take a look at the apps of Oscal and myself, which I included in the links below. We are the Korean and Chinese players respectively.

Most Serene Imperial State of Korea (대한제국) <- Keep in mind this is from the older 1850 iteration of the RP, so it's until Oscal updates his app for this time frame, this is the best representation of Korea in this setting for now. Also, have to warn you it's quite the read.

Heavenly Kingdom of Transcendent Peace (太平天囯) < - This is mine. It's a relatively quicker read compared to Oscal's, so I recommend reading this first if you're short on time. I have to warn you though that my divergence is even more radical than Oscal's and for those unaware of the historical events leading up to it, might even bewilder them. But considering the rebellion from which this divergence is centered was the largest and deadliest war in mainland China before the World Wars, a militant, evangelizing, Christian theocracy in the largest country in Asia was more likely than you would believe, in the same way someone living in 1900 would have no reasonable expectation to believe that their country would not only become a totalitarian communist state, but also achieve technological and economic parity with the West by the end of the same century.

Hopefully our apps can give you inspiration for the changes you want to make to Japan in your app. Also, whenever you make references to Korea or China in your app, make sure to think of Oscal's Korea and Taiping China rather than the irl countries. Hope this helps.

[Kargintina the Third]

So what was the changes you wanted for my App?

[Sao Nova Europa]

This is my app post. If there is any need to revise or any mistakes, just inform me. My history begins at 1800s, as I wanted to leave the history before that to the Spanish player.

Flag:

([url=https://i.postimg.cc/y80mpTTt/1024px-Flag-of-Argentina-1818-svg.png]Image)[/url]

Full Nation Name : Confederate States of South America (CSSA)

The concept looks interesting, but I think that adding a few more details in some spots would be great!

I'm not sure exactly how to formulate it, but I'd like you to explain why in this timeline, the state became the CSSA and didn't break up like the United Provinces of South America did in real life. I am not familiar enough with South American history to give you ideas, but I know that this period was very volatile. There would have certainly been other factions revolting alongside or against García Óñez , how would he have brought them under his control? How would have have dealt with the debates between centralization and decentralization? I read a little bit about the United Provinces, and there seem to be a lot of interesting things there that you could use. Óñez sounds like an incredible historical figure, so a few more details about him would be great, even more so since he seems to have tried to foster republicanism after his dictatorship and so on.

Other than that - a few more details about the exact powers of the president and his relations with the Congress would be important, and a few more details about religion would be intriguing to hear - do your people still consider themselves to be Catholics? Economically, I know that Argentina had a similar economic boom so it is realistic, but you could try to ask around in the OOC and find some nations that would have been willing to invest into your nation. I'd also personally make a distinction between a modern southern part of the country, and a semi-industralized or close to primitive north maybe, around the Andes?

And the last thing - how would the CSSA be treating its natives? Especially if it owns Bolivia, it would have considerable numbers of them. Is this South American identity built around the Spanish-speaking colonial culture only, or has the government tried to include the natives too? I know that real life regimes around this time weren't that friendly with the natives, so you could mention some tensions and hostility.

If you need any help, feel free to ask!

I have edited my post to address those issues.

[Ichoria]

Império Lusitano
Imperium Lusitanorum | Lusitanian Empire

Full Nation Name : Lusitanian Empire | Império Lusitano
Majority/Official Culture :

Lusitanian culture is a somewhat artificial construct. Very little unites the former slave of Bahia, the rural farmer of Trás-os-Montes and the assimilado native of Zambezia. However, if asked, they might all respond with the same answer, with varying degrees of conviction – to be Lusitanian is to speak the language of Camões, to be the free son of a free land regardless of race or creed, and to hold fealty and undying loyalty to Her Imperial Majesty. In this simple formulation there is room for whites, negros and pardos, Catholics, Muslims and Candomblé practitioners, moreover, the culture of Lusitania is increasingly a hectic melange of traditions and peoples imported and exported from within the Empire and from around the globe. The mestiço workers of the Tagus valley, the Niponic descendants of São Paulo, the affluent Muslim bourgeoisie of Mozambique and the Litoral Zambeze, all of these contribute to the melting pot that is Lusitania. And though some in Old Portugal might disagree, Imperial policy remains that none (save for the unassimilated natives of the African posessions) are more Lusitanian than others.

Territorial Core : Brazil, Continental Portugal, the Azores, Madeira, the Biafran Islands (Ano Bom, São Tomé, Príncipe and Fernando Pó), Fernando de Noronha, Santa Helena, Ilha da Ascensão, Tristão da Cunha, and Zambezia (OTL Pink Map Portuguese claims in Africa)
Territorial Claim : N/A
Capital City : Rio de Janeiro
Population : 36 600 000‬
Government Type : Constitutional monarchy
Government Ideology/Policies:

One of the main quasi-ideological prerogatives of modern Lusitania developed organically, from the growing need to integrate disparate and increasingly mixed ethnicities into a singular idea of Lusitanity. If this was never a great concern in Portugal, it certainly became one in Brazil, where racial tensions before and after the abolition of slavery in 1870 required a heavy hand from the Imperial throne. With a newfound source of support from former slaves and the growing urban bourgeoisie, the Crown could increasingly sideline the rural landowner class, who had been the traditional power brokers in Brazil since its ascension to the status of Co-Kingdom. This culminated in the failed March Rebellion of 1873, with the rural landowners seeking to not only dissolve the Empire but to break the fundamental tie connecting Brazil to Portugal and declare an independent Brazilian Republic, with the principle of racial castes enshrined in law. The rebellion would be crushed, in large part thanks to the efforts of the freed masses, of the Brazilian urban citizenry, and of army regiments from Portugal and from the coastal areas of Brazil, who by and large remained loyal to the House of Bragança. Most importantly, the March Rebellion cemented the notion of Lusitania as a racial democracy, and in its aftermath allowed the Crown to push the idea of Miscigenation as the state policy it is today. The symbolic commencement of this policy is generally understood to have been the elevation of Alberto do Bom Nome, a former slave and war hero of the March Rebellion, to the peerage in 1876. The Baron do Bom Nome would go on to write Anunciação, a quasi-spiritualist book of prose and poetry with references to the works of Camões and of the Friar António Vieira, in which he would defend the idea of the New Man, a child of all the races of the world, spiritually ascended and morally incorruptible, which Lusitania would beget. Whether because of a genuine belief in its thesis or because of an understanding of its usefulness in the magnanimous mission of ruling such a disparate nation, Emperor Pedro II would defend the writing wholeheartedly, a policy perpetuated by his daughter, Her Imperial Majesty Amélia I.

Government Focus : The main prerogative of Lusitania is the development of its industries, taking advantage of its wealth in resources to develop its still incipient productive sector. Also important is keeping tensions to a minimum, a difficult task in a tri-continental nation with disparate peoples and historical tensions which have boiled over once before
Head of State and Government (de jure): Her Imperial Majesty the Empress Amélia I
Head of Government (de facto): Prime Minister Mateus Gonçalves
Government Description : The government of Lusitania takes the form of a quasi-federal parliamentary representative democracy, whereby the Empress is the head of state and nominally the head of government. One of the most interesting aspects of the Imperial government is the constitutional guarantee that the Imperial Prince or Princess shall reside not in Rio de Janeiro, where the Imperial court is located, but in Lisbon, the Portuguese capital.
Majority/State Religion : Roman Catholicism
Religious Description : N/A

Economic Ideologies : Capitalism
Major Production : Coffee, sugar, rubber, leather and skins, cotton
Economic Description : While the economic development of Brazil especially has been fast in the near century since the move of the Royal (now Imperial) Family to the former colony, factors such as endemic illiteracy and a reliance on imports and on slavery are specters that continue to haunt Brazil specifically and Lusitania as a whole. The economy of Lusitania is dominated by raw material exports in Brazil, but a growing manufacturing sector is appearing to fuel internal demand and some key industries such as ferrous metallurgy and shipbuilding are blossoming in Portugal.

Development: Semi-Industrialized
Development Description : Though the nation is witnessing fast development of its industries and railways in both Portugal and Brazil, it is a latecomer to the game of industrialization

Army Description : The army is a strong but increasingly less prestigious institution than the navy, in the absence of significant land engagements for several decades now. The Army Academy is headquartered in São Paulo.
Army Weakness : Both Armed Forces, while overwhelmingly loyal, suffer from issues of classism endemic to institutions where being a member of the nobility was an integral requirement to being an officer. While genuine meritocracy is the norm now, the traditional elevation of Generals (and Admirals) to the peerage with the title of Baron or above sometimes turns these appointments into acts of a far too political nature
Naval Description : The Lusitanian navy is among the strongest in the world, with over 80 warships. The Naval Academy is headquartered in Lisbon and the Imperial Prince is the symbolic head of the Navy.
Naval Weakness : Ditto

National Goals : Hegemonic dominance over South and Central America, strengthening of its position in Africa
National Issues : Ethnic tensions, tensions between the rural elites and the new urban elites, class tensions, geographic tensions between an increasingly rebellious and sidelined Portugal and a relatively stable and prosperous Brazil
National Figures of Interest : Alberto do Bom Nome, Seu Chacrinha (velho palhaço)
National Ambition/Aspirations : The blending of ethnicities until a true, cohesive Lusitanian people emerges. Willingness of the assimilated varies.

History : Monarchy moved to Brazil as in real life, though prompted by a different historical development than the Napoleonic invasions, Brazil elevated to the status of Co-Kingdom, Empire of Lusitania declared sometime during the early 19th century
RP Sample: Nada, I'm afraid

#AltDiv (do not delete this, it's for keeping track of the apps)

[TENNOHEIKA BANZAI NIHON]

Hey Tracian sorry to be a bother. I just wanted to make it a bit easier for you to understand the Japan I am painting.

In this timeline, the Japanese population is growing a bit faster, and there is greater need for territorial expansion. This Japan is not hindered by isolation and has kept in frequent trade with Asia and whomever wants to do trade. As a result this Japan has seen two Shoguns in the past 100 years reaching to expand their influence and colonize lands to feed their population and fuel their armies. There was never any influence from the west, and there were no Americans coming over to force them to open up trade. As a result, the Shogun has stayed in power as military dictator of the country. The Emperor is nothing more than a symbolic figurehead much like the IRL one today. He gives speeches, holds ceremonies, and lives a life of riches. Nothing else. He has zero control over the government. The Shogun has cemented his control by creating a constitution, and his form of government sees him as the absolute leader of the entire nation. He is advised by a council of aristocrats, military leaders, and former leaders of the different kingdoms, but whatever he says goes. He faces opposition due to this both within the military and the public, but for the most part, the major rebellions and revolts have been put down, their leaders dead.

Some military differences than IRL is that the Japanese military has mainly focused on fighting natives and inside revolts, and lack the experience. (IRL Japan had fought the Chinese in the First Sino War, and just beat the Russians in the 1905 Russo-Japanese War.) But the military is taking influence from the Koreans and Chinese, looking at their tactics and learning from them so the Japanese Army is trained to fight a modern force. (This is kinda like the problem IRL America faces right now. They have fought terrorist all this time, and now are turning back to getting ready to fight conventional wars, but this is something modern commanders and their troops have no experience in.) Another difference, is that this Japan has kept conscription in place, meaning it has a potential to have a relatively large active force but for the time being doesn't as it faces resource shortages.

I understand, but that is not you coming up with a original new concept either. You started by making a Japan that was very close to what existed in real life, and then you made changes in order to conform yourself with the realities of this world and timeline. There is not enough originality coming from you and your ideas, and you also do not have a point of start and a buildup. We have some complicated alt-histories here, but all nations have a change at the core of their concept - the Byzantines are reborn as a direct effect of the failure of the Fourth Crusade in my app, the Western Roman Empire is reborn through the coronation of Belisarius, France becomes Reformed in opposition to imperial authority, at so on.

My personal advice is for you to come with a divergence and a concept tied to it.

At the same time, you have also not answered my other concern.

Please talk to me. How am I getting this wrong? I have literally completely changed the form of government, and my core concept is completely different.

I'm getting the feeling that racial stereotypes are coming into play here. IRL Japan did no colonizing at this extent. IRL Japan was not controlled by a military dictatorship. You suggested that I do a Japan with no western influence, and I have laid it out.

Please tell me what I am getting wrong. You are saying I am not being original, but how? If this is a thing against Imperial Japan or something just let me know. The history is completely different, the government is different, everything is different except the loyalty.

I feel a bit targeted here, I am doing changes in government, redoing history completely, but you still aren't accepting my application.

Can I get some input from other people please?