[SUBMITTED] (NOT BY ME) Liberate Opstan

[Lyrical International Brigade]

The Be Best of McMasterdonia → tag: delegates
4 hours ago
Dear WA Delegates,

I write to ask that you approve my proposal to liberate Opstan: page=UN_view_proposal/id=mcmasterdonia_1582869420

Opstan has been a safe haven for a number of nations of ill repute, including the founder. It has also recently served as a safe haven for nations of Slatos who attacked the region Stargate in an unprovoked action.

The founder (who has recently been deleted) has been particularly problematic and has also been banned from a number of regions for poor behaviour.

This liberation will allow the World Assembly to take a stand against such safe havens and bring an end to the region of Opstan.

Yours,
McMasterdonia
Delegate of The North Pacific

Security Council Proposal
ID: mcmasterdonia_1582869420

Category: Liberation

Nominee (region): Opstan

Proposed by: McMasterdonia

The World Assembly,

Declaring that the region of Opstan has been a safe haven for nations of ill repute, protected only by the presence of the founder;

Noting that nations of the region of Slatos fled to Opstan to escape punishment for an unprovoked attack on Stargate;

Aware that Stargate is a founderless and historic region allied with The North Pacific;

Acknowledging that Opstan is founderless and is currently password protected;

Believing that Opstan deserves to be destroyed as soon as possible;

Hereby liberates Opstan.

Co-authored by Praeceps

I'm gonna be honest with ya, Mac - even my SC-ignorant ass might've had some good advice had you drafted this here: "nations of ill repute" sounds like you're accusing them of prostitution more than anything else.

[Marxist Germany]

OOC: Support, raiders rescind their right to sovereignty when they begin raiding.

[Kuriko]

I kind of have to agree with SL, this is a lackluster proposal that could have been written much better. Knowing the full story behind this I'm not going to oppose it, but neither can I personally support it. McM, you base the entire argument just on their attack on Stargate which had zero affect on Stargate thanks to TNP (Thanks a bunch, really!).

I know you can't include everything that's happened due to NS rules, and that makes it hard to write a good proposal. But you could've added a little fluff and flare to give it an attractive quality.

Edit: I guess this would answer the question on whether Liberations affect founder passwords if passed. I then wonder if it should be allowed to within the rules if it does, considering founders are outside of the WA. But so are ROs I think, so it's such a conundrum.

[McMasterdonia]

The Be Best of McMasterdonia → tag: delegates
4 hours ago
Dear WA Delegates,

I write to ask that you approve my proposal to liberate Opstan: page=UN_view_proposal/id=mcmasterdonia_1582869420

Opstan has been a safe haven for a number of nations of ill repute, including the founder. It has also recently served as a safe haven for nations of Slatos who attacked the region Stargate in an unprovoked action.

The founder (who has recently been deleted) has been particularly problematic and has also been banned from a number of regions for poor behaviour.

This liberation will allow the World Assembly to take a stand against such safe havens and bring an end to the region of Opstan.

Yours,
McMasterdonia
Delegate of The North Pacific

Security Council Proposal
ID: mcmasterdonia_1582869420

Category: Liberation

Nominee (region): Opstan

Proposed by: McMasterdonia

The World Assembly,

Declaring that the region of Opstan has been a safe haven for nations of ill repute, protected only by the presence of the founder;

Noting that nations of the region of Slatos fled to Opstan to escape punishment for an unprovoked attack on Stargate;

Aware that Stargate is a founderless and historic region allied with The North Pacific;

Acknowledging that Opstan is founderless and is currently password protected;

Believing that Opstan deserves to be destroyed as soon as possible;

Hereby liberates Opstan.

Co-authored by Praeceps

I'm gonna be honest with ya, Mac - even my SC-ignorant ass might've had some good advice had you drafted this here: "nations of ill repute" sounds like you're accusing them of prostitution more than anything else.

Nothing about this proposal required participating in drafting here. Secondly, prostitution is a perfectly legitimate profession. Unlike Opstan, which houses nations truly of ill repute.

OOC: Support, raiders rescind their right to sovereignty when they begin raiding.

Thanks.

I kind of have to agree with SL, this is a lackluster proposal that could have been written much better. Knowing the full story behind this I'm not going to oppose it, but neither can I personally support it. McM, you base the entire argument just on their attack on Stargate which had zero affect on Stargate thanks to TNP (Thanks a bunch, really!).
<snip>

It’s not simply based on the attack on Stargate and we seek no thanks for defending our ally. Secondly, I fail to see how it is any more lacklustre than your Liberate Pars.

In any event, your lack of support is noted.

[Bormiar]

Secondly, prostitution is a perfectly legitimate profession. Unlike Opstan, which houses nations truly of ill repute.

Here we go...

[Lyrical International Brigade]

I'm gonna be honest with ya, Mac - even my SC-ignorant ass might've had some good advice had you drafted this here: "nations of ill repute" sounds like you're accusing them of prostitution more than anything else.

Nothing about this proposal required participating in drafting here.

OK, fine. But...

Secondly, prostitution is a perfectly legitimate profession. Unlike Opstan, which houses nations truly of ill repute.

That is literally the point I was trying to make.

It's no skin off my back, I approved the thing. Just some friendly and well-intentioned advice.

[Tinhampton]

OPPOSED (although I support this in principle), and I have an InstaRepeal! waiting in the wings if this looks like passing.

Opstan the nation (founder of Opstan the region) passworded their region ~20 seconds before getting mod-bombed. This password has not been altered since; Liberations cannot remove founder-imposed passwords, ergo this Liberation would not remove Opstan's password.

[Dreadton]

OPPOSED (although I support this in principle), and I have an InstaRepeal! waiting in the wings if this looks like passing.

Opstan the nation (founder of Opstan the region) passworded their region ~20 seconds before getting mod-bombed. This password has not been altered since; Liberations cannot remove founder-imposed passwords, ergo this Liberation would not remove Opstan's password.

Is there a ruling somewhere on that?

[Ransium]

OPPOSED (although I support this in principle), and I have an InstaRepeal! waiting in the wings if this looks like passing.

Opstan the nation (founder of Opstan the region) passworded their region ~20 seconds before getting mod-bombed. This password has not been altered since; Liberations cannot remove founder-imposed passwords, ergo this Liberation would not remove Opstan's password.

Is there a ruling somewhere on that?

It’s not illegal to liberate a founder passworded region just ineffective viewtopic.php?p=4088685#p4088685

[Dreadton]

Is there a ruling somewhere on that?

It’s not illegal to liberate a founder passworded region just ineffective viewtopic.php?p=4088685#p4088685

Did not know that.

Seemed funny that a password was issued seconds before the founder was deeted.

[Kuriko]

[box]Security Council Proposal
ID: mcmasterdonia_1582869420

In any event, your lack of support is noted.

You say that in a very agressive manner, like me not supporting offensive liberations is a very bad thing. Note to the world, I don't support offensive Liberations even if I wrote one. Kinda makes me a hypocrite I guess, but there it is.

Edit: Also, this liberation is more than 90% likely to be useless if in fact they cant touch founder passwords.

Edit Edit: And the community is already moving to that Sassafrass region, so this would only affect the slow movers.

Edit Edit Edit: And yes, you're right on Pars. I could've made it better written than I did.

[Superbunny]

OOC: Another day, another liberation proposal that seeks to target some backwater raider region which has done basically nothing other than one very minor and failed raid against another region, and by the time it gets on the voting floor and passes/fails, everyone will have already moved to another region, except this time they'll have received free publicity thanks to the SC.

You realize that raiders can keep moving regions, right? The only thing that this will do is make it so they can't use the name Opstan anymore (assuming someone from the NPA/NPO/whatever will refound it.) They'll still be raiders and will likely go for another region sometime again.

But I know that if it passes, people will still claim victory over raiders otherwise, while the countless other raider regions like TBH destroy region after region after region.

I won't be voting against this, but I won't be voting for it either.

[Dreadton]

OOC: Another day, another liberation proposal that seeks to target some backwater raider region which has done basically nothing other than one very minor and failed raid against another region, and by the time it gets on the voting floor and passes/fails, everyone will have already moved to another region, except this time they'll have received free publicity thanks to the SC.

You realize that raiders can keep moving regions, right? The only thing that this will do is make it so they can't use the name Opstan anymore (assuming someone from the NPA/NPO/whatever will refound it.) They'll still be raiders and will likely go for another region sometime again.

But I know that if it passes, people will still claim victory over raiders otherwise, while the countless other raider regions like TBH destroy region after region after region.

I won't be voting against this, but I won't be voting for it either.

If you follow the conversation, it isnt only about a raid

[Superbunny]

OOC: Another day, another liberation proposal that seeks to target some backwater raider region which has done basically nothing other than one very minor and failed raid against another region, and by the time it gets on the voting floor and passes/fails, everyone will have already moved to another region, except this time they'll have received free publicity thanks to the SC.

You realize that raiders can keep moving regions, right? The only thing that this will do is make it so they can't use the name Opstan anymore (assuming someone from the NPA/NPO/whatever will refound it.) They'll still be raiders and will likely go for another region sometime again.

But I know that if it passes, people will still claim victory over raiders otherwise, while the countless other raider regions like TBH destroy region after region after region.

I won't be voting against this, but I won't be voting for it either.

If you follow the conversation, it isnt only about a raid

I would be delighted to know more, but I'm apparently not allowed to due to "NS rules" which doesn't give me a whole lot to follow.

[Dreadton]

TNP has a discord. just saying. not suggesting you should ask there.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Looks like the Founder’s password has been removed, so the Liberation would now be effective against any Delegate imposed one.

[Praeceps]

Is there a ruling somewhere on that?

It’s not illegal to liberate a founder passworded region just ineffective viewtopic.php?p=4088685#p4088685

So Sedgistan is incorrect here then: viewtopic.php?p=30356204#p30356204 ?

[Bormiar]

Not useful anymore: https://www.nationstates.net/region=ops ... #p37750984

[Superbunny]

TNP has a discord. just saying. not suggesting you should ask there.

Alright, I guess I won't try that later.

Anyways, like I said, Opstan's already dead, so...not much to liberate, I guess.

[WayNeacTia]

and I have an InstaRepeal! waiting in the wings if this looks like passing.

You make that statement like it seems to carry some weight around here. It is the largest delegate in the game proposing this. I am pretty sure McM will stomp your repeal into paste and laugh while doing it. Don't make threats you can't back up.

[Jakker]

OOC: Support, raiders rescind their right to sovereignty when they begin raiding.

Let's not throw out silly comments like this as though the region can be regarded as raiders because they attempted to raid a region. Furthermore, it is insulting and disrespectful to try to make this simply about them attempting to raid Stargate when there is so much more OOC stuff. Even if one does not know the whole story, it doesn't help to turn this into a raiders are bad argument.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Proposal has been pulled from the queue, TNP are in charge in Opstan, game over.

[Sedgistan]

It’s not illegal to liberate a founder passworded region just ineffective viewtopic.php?p=4088685#p4088685

So Sedgistan is incorrect here then: viewtopic.php?p=30356204#p30356204 ?

No, Sedgistan is correct there. I'll quote word of admin from when the mod team first sought clarity on this back in 2009:

The Liberation mechanic is really simple: it just makes the regional password (if any) ineffective while there's no active Founder. If a region with a Founder gets Liberated, the region will gain its little badge, but nothing else will change: any password will remain in force. Should the Founder CTE, though, the password would suddenly become valid.

So there's no need to intervene: the WA can pass a Liberation resolution on any region it wants, regardless of whether it actually has a password, a Delegate, or a Founder. It won't do anything unless the region has no Founder and an active password, but we don't care about that.

[Lord Dominator]

So Sedgistan is incorrect here then: viewtopic.php?p=30356204#p30356204 ?

No, Sedgistan is correct there. I'll quote word of admin from when the mod team first sought clarity on this back in 2009:

The Liberation mechanic is really simple: it just makes the regional password (if any) ineffective while there's no active Founder. If a region with a Founder gets Liberated, the region will gain its little badge, but nothing else will change: any password will remain in force. Should the Founder CTE, though, the password would suddenly become valid.

So there's no need to intervene: the WA can pass a Liberation resolution on any region it wants, regardless of whether it actually has a password, a Delegate, or a Founder. It won't do anything unless the region has no Founder and an active password, but we don't care about that.

So founder passwords would get removed by a liberation if the founder CTEs (or is out of region), but sticks around so long as the founder is in-region/living, and a founder password would be removed by a liberation if the founder is no longer in-region (or is CTE), to be clear?

[Praeceps]

So Sedgistan is incorrect here then: viewtopic.php?p=30356204#p30356204 ?

No, Sedgistan is correct there. I'll quote word of admin from when the mod team first sought clarity on this back in 2009:

The Liberation mechanic is really simple: it just makes the regional password (if any) ineffective while there's no active Founder. If a region with a Founder gets Liberated, the region will gain its little badge, but nothing else will change: any password will remain in force. Should the Founder CTE, though, the password would suddenly become valid.

So there's no need to intervene: the WA can pass a Liberation resolution on any region it wants, regardless of whether it actually has a password, a Delegate, or a Founder. It won't do anything unless the region has no Founder and an active password, but we don't care about that.

Thank you for the clarification. I was originally under the assumption that early-Sedgistan was correct so thank you later-Sedgistan for correcting that.