I knew you were trying to refute their point but I just never seen that used before lol
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by Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:45 am
by Ifreann » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:46 am
by Nimzonia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:47 am
by Leninist Haven » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:49 am
Nimzonia wrote:I don't think it's the job of atheism to make the world a better place. Also, even if you could prove a correlation between belief in deities and positive social outcomes, they still don't exist.
by Chan Island » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:50 am
Ifreann wrote:Marxist Germany wrote:Because God created Adam and Eve.
Both of whom were atheists. They knew God personally, he hung out with them, they probably had regular chats about the weather he'd been creating. They didn't believe in God any more than I believe in the computer I'm typing on. God's existence was not a matter of faith for them the way it is for modern theists.
Also they never existed and God isn't real.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Chan Island » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:54 am
Leninist Haven wrote:Nimzonia wrote:I don't think it's the job of atheism to make the world a better place. Also, even if you could prove a correlation between belief in deities and positive social outcomes, they still don't exist.
True, but if one could prove a correlation -- or even a causation -- that belief in deities causes negative social outcomes, and at that, incredibly awful social outcomes, then it might require some force (atheism, for example) to overcome said negative social outcomes. At such a point, it might become atheism's job to stop the awful social outcomes that religion might create in such a scenario.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by New Bremerton » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:55 am
Alvecia wrote:I would say the finger should be pointed at secularism rather than atheism. The latter being something of a subset of the former.
Secularism I would say has definitely made the world a better place.
by Dytarma » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:59 am
by Vivolkha » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:01 am
by Rojava Free State » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:02 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:03 am
by Rojava Free State » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:05 am
Chan Island wrote:Leninist Haven wrote:True, but if one could prove a correlation -- or even a causation -- that belief in deities causes negative social outcomes, and at that, incredibly awful social outcomes, then it might require some force (atheism, for example) to overcome said negative social outcomes. At such a point, it might become atheism's job to stop the awful social outcomes that religion might create in such a scenario.
And we have multiple examples of the latter. For example, the prevalence of religious belief generally correlates with sexual aliments like HIV and teen pregnancy, mostly because the world's major religions have a problem with teaching sex ed at school (assuming they aren't out and out encouraging bad social trends like saying that condoms are a sin- looking at you catholic church).
So yes, advocating atheism is an attempt at trying to make the world a better place.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Alvecia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:07 am
Chan Island wrote:Ifreann wrote:Both of whom were atheists. They knew God personally, he hung out with them, they probably had regular chats about the weather he'd been creating. They didn't believe in God any more than I believe in the computer I'm typing on. God's existence was not a matter of faith for them the way it is for modern theists.
Also they never existed and God isn't real.
That's actually a philosophically tangled debate. Could you really be considered an atheist if you personally know God? Well, you'd 100% know it's real, but on the other hand it wouldn't be a matter of faith, it'd be fact.
Suffice to say there's a lot of really interesting reading out there on the subject.
by Rojava Free State » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:07 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Rojava Free State » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:09 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Chan Island » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:10 am
Alvecia wrote:Chan Island wrote:
That's actually a philosophically tangled debate. Could you really be considered an atheist if you personally know God? Well, you'd 100% know it's real, but on the other hand it wouldn't be a matter of faith, it'd be fact.
Suffice to say there's a lot of really interesting reading out there on the subject.
You could think you were just going insane. Our brains lie to us all the time.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Alvecia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:12 am
Chan Island wrote:Alvecia wrote:You could think you were just going insane. Our brains lie to us all the time.
And then there's one of the architects of the Anabaptist uprising in Munster back in 1648 (also my favourite Dan Carlin episode ever....) was this crazy man who would have arguments with 'God' right in front of people. He was allegedly a hell of a person to meet.
by Chan Island » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:17 am
Alvecia wrote:Chan Island wrote:
And then there's one of the architects of the Anabaptist uprising in Munster back in 1648 (also my favourite Dan Carlin episode ever....) was this crazy man who would have arguments with 'God' right in front of people. He was allegedly a hell of a person to meet.
Tbf, if I suddenly started seeing god, I'd have a lot of choice words for him as well.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Ifreann » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 am
Satuga wrote:Ifreann wrote:Explain to me how humans had religion before they invented religion. Explain to me how the first humans were somehow born believing in god without anyone ever explaining the idea to them or them inventing the idea themselves.
It's hard to say considering we have no history of way back then. However we do have some evidence of possible superstitious acts performed during those times, specifically trepanning.
So to say they were atheist or not is way more difficult.
However using the evidence that every civilization formed has created their own form of religion
it is at the very least logical to say humans are superstitious by nature.
by Alvecia » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:20 am
Chan Island wrote:Alvecia wrote:Tbf, if I suddenly started seeing god, I'd have a lot of choice words for him as well.
At one point he was mid conversation with someone, suddenly started chatting 'God' behind him, then turned around and announced that God had just told him to kill the other person.
I'd have some choice words at a command like that to be very sure.
by Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:31 am
by New Bremerton » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:38 am
Satuga wrote:Honestly a large portion of morale's came from religion, however now that we have a far more functional society I don't really think it's religions job to be that morale giver anymore. It's society as a whole's job to do that, to teach children the rights and wrongs. Religion should be for mostly closure and hope now, rather than the morale enforcer its been for centuries.
Also it should be moderate like everything less we have another Jones-town.
by The Emerald Legion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:40 am
Chan Island wrote:Leninist Haven wrote:True, but if one could prove a correlation -- or even a causation -- that belief in deities causes negative social outcomes, and at that, incredibly awful social outcomes, then it might require some force (atheism, for example) to overcome said negative social outcomes. At such a point, it might become atheism's job to stop the awful social outcomes that religion might create in such a scenario.
And we have multiple examples of the latter. For example, the prevalence of religious belief generally correlates with sexual aliments like HIV and teen pregnancy, mostly because the world's major religions have a problem with teaching sex ed at school (assuming they aren't out and out encouraging bad social trends like saying that condoms are a sin- looking at you catholic church).
So yes, advocating atheism is an attempt at trying to make the world a better place.
by Rojava Free State » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:44 am
The Emerald Legion wrote:Chan Island wrote:
And we have multiple examples of the latter. For example, the prevalence of religious belief generally correlates with sexual aliments like HIV and teen pregnancy, mostly because the world's major religions have a problem with teaching sex ed at school (assuming they aren't out and out encouraging bad social trends like saying that condoms are a sin- looking at you catholic church).
So yes, advocating atheism is an attempt at trying to make the world a better place.
Not really. It's taking advantage of a competing ideologies weaknesses to promulgate ones own.
There are other Faith's that don't give a shit about the traditional Christian baggage when it comes to sex.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
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