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[DEFEATED] Condemn Norrlands

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Morover
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Founded: Oct 14, 2018
Libertarian Police State

Postby Morover » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:58 am

Tinhampton wrote:
Ultior wrote:Well, this isn’t passing. Tinhampton’s lobbying and whining paid off.

Morover wrote:OOC: That's not fair. Tinhampton does have some influence, but ultimately they're not the reason this is likely not to succeed.

For future reference: I did not do any "lobbying" beyond what I have written in this thread (if I really wanted to tank it, I'd have used New Islet to send out a telegram to delegates asking them to unapprove this) - and I've complained a lot about this proposal, yes, but mostly to myself :P

OOC: Oh, yes, sorry if I spoke unclearly. I just mean to say that you're not the reason it has so few "for" votes.

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Bhang Bhang Duc
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Bhang Bhang Duc » Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:07 am

Ultior wrote:Well, this isn’t passing. Tinhampton’s lobbying and whining paid off.

While your proposal was well written you have obviously not done enough to convince members and delegates of the need to condemn Norrlands.

Blaming Tinhampton for your inability to do this is unfair. Any blame rests with you, the author.
Last edited by Bhang Bhang Duc on Sat Jan 25, 2020 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:06 am

No single person could make a proposal fail by 90% majority even if they tried.
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Eist
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Postby Eist » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:38 am

There is no conspiracy, it's just they haven't done close to enough to warrant a condemnation.
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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:40 am

Eist wrote:There is no conspiracy, it's just they haven't done close to enough to warrant a condemnation.

It's always a conspiracy! How could it possibly be anything else than people plotting about me!?
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Kandorith
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Postby Kandorith » Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:17 pm

Tarchuna and Ravenna wrote:It really is disgusting, the swarm of SJWs who rush to defend Norrlands...

Your constant accusations of everyone being a SJW is getting really tiresome.

Anyway OT:

We shall be voting against this condemnation in light with earlier mentioned by others. The real condemnable acts also seem more of a regional issue rather than the issue of the entire Security Council.

We do however condemn the use of nuclear weapons against a civil population, and the use of them in general. So we shall hereby join in the "conspiracy"
Last edited by Kandorith on Sat Jan 25, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jasonvillee
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Postby Jasonvillee » Sat Jan 25, 2020 1:17 pm

I feel like this should be a regional thing, since it happened in a regional roleplay. Norrlands' war crimes are very unacceptable and horrible, but this really affects your region. You could write out a condemnation in your region's roleplay.
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Ultior
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Postby Ultior » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:05 pm

Tinhampton wrote:
Ultior wrote:Well, this isn’t passing. Tinhampton’s lobbying and whining paid off.

Morover wrote:OOC: That's not fair. Tinhampton does have some influence, but ultimately they're not the reason this is likely not to succeed.

For future reference: I did not do any "lobbying" beyond what I have written in this thread (if I really wanted to tank it, I'd have used New Islet to send out a telegram to delegates asking them to unapprove this) - and I've complained a lot about this proposal, yes, but mostly to myself :P

You campaigned against it on the TNP forums and succeeded in getting the region to vote 100% against. That's called lobbying. Maybe you didn't send out mass TGs, but your efforts were enough to ensure its defeat. There's no reason to lie to me about this- I was aware that my chances of success were low from the start.

Lets be honest- If you really thought the proposal was that terrible, you would have realized that it wouldn't pass and would have let it die on its own. I find it very hard to believe that was the only reason why you spent so much time campaigning against it. I find it plausible that there were a few personal motives involved here (for the record, I am not accusing you of conspiracy, this is different).
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:
Ultior wrote:Well, this isn’t passing. Tinhampton’s lobbying and whining paid off.

While your proposal was well written you have obviously not done enough to convince members and delegates of the need to condemn Norrlands.

Blaming Tinhampton for your inability to do this is unfair. Any blame rests with you, the author.

I'm not entirely blaming Tinhampton for this, although he played a major role in its defeat.

Me and another nation sent out TGs asking for approvals and votes, which is probably the only reason why it even made it to vote. However, the super delegates and feeders were against the proposal. Once they are against a proposal, it tends to fail. Tin's lobbying didn't help with that.
Last edited by Ultior on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Morover Artwork Fields 28
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Ex-Nation

Postby Morover Artwork Fields 28 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:15 pm

Ultior wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:
For future reference: I did not do any "lobbying" beyond what I have written in this thread (if I really wanted to tank it, I'd have used New Islet to send out a telegram to delegates asking them to unapprove this) - and I've complained a lot about this proposal, yes, but mostly to myself :P

You campaigned against it on the TNP forums and succeeded in getting the region to vote 100% against. That's called lobbying. Maybe you didn't send out mass TGs, but your efforts were enough to ensure its defeat.

Lets be honest- If you really thought the proposal was that terrible, you would have realized that it wouldn't pass and let it die on its own. I find it very hard to believe that was the only reason why you spent so much time campaigning against it.
Bhang Bhang Duc wrote:While your proposal was well written you have obviously not done enough to convince members and delegates of the need to condemn Norrlands.

Blaming Tinhampton for your inability to do this is unfair. Any blame rests with you, the author.

I'm not entirely blaming Tinhampton for this, although he played a major role in its defeat.

Me and another nation sent out TGs asking for approvals and votes, which is probably the only reason why it even made it to vote. However, the super delegates and feeders were against the proposal. Once they are against a proposal, it tends to fail. Tin's lobbying didn't help with that.

OOC: Tinhampton didn't post on TNP's forums at all. If anything, I did more lobbying against it than they did.

EDIT: Wrong account but oh well lol
Last edited by Morover Artwork Fields 28 on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:16 pm

I see where the confusion is coming from. Tin did not play a major role in this failing because - whether or not he argued against it on TNP's forums, which he didn't - everyone was against the proposal anyways. Both Tinhampton and everyone else voted against the proposal. Is it reasonable to you to assume that Tinhampton is the cause of that, rather than being yet another critic voting against because the proposal isn't as good as it needed to be?
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Ultior
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Postby Ultior » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:29 pm

Morover Artwork Fields 28 wrote:
Ultior wrote:You campaigned against it on the TNP forums and succeeded in getting the region to vote 100% against. That's called lobbying. Maybe you didn't send out mass TGs, but your efforts were enough to ensure its defeat.

Lets be honest- If you really thought the proposal was that terrible, you would have realized that it wouldn't pass and let it die on its own. I find it very hard to believe that was the only reason why you spent so much time campaigning against it.

I'm not entirely blaming Tinhampton for this, although he played a major role in its defeat.

Me and another nation sent out TGs asking for approvals and votes, which is probably the only reason why it even made it to vote. However, the super delegates and feeders were against the proposal. Once they are against a proposal, it tends to fail. Tin's lobbying didn't help with that.

OOC: Tinhampton didn't post on TNP's forums at all. If anything, I did more lobbying against it than they did.

EDIT: Wrong account but oh well lol

Doesn't it look a bit suspicious that all it took was one small poorly detailed post to turn everyone against. I'm also pretty sure that's not the only WA related thread in the TNP forums.

I don't doubt that you did a fair bit of lobbying though.

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Ultior
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Postby Ultior » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:31 pm

Bormiar wrote:I see where the confusion is coming from. Tin did not play a major role in this failing because - whether or not he argued against it on TNP's forums, which he didn't - everyone was against the proposal anyways. Both Tinhampton and everyone else voted against the proposal. Is it reasonable to you to assume that Tinhampton is the cause of that, rather than being yet another critic voting against because the proposal isn't as good as it needed to be?

Again- I'm not blaming Tinhampton for the entirety of this. My point here is that the main cause (not the entire cause) for defeat was lobbying. That's all I really have to say about this.
Last edited by Ultior on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Morover
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Morover » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:35 pm

Ultior wrote:
Morover Artwork Fields 28 wrote:OOC: Tinhampton didn't post on TNP's forums at all. If anything, I did more lobbying against it than they did.

EDIT: Wrong account but oh well lol

Doesn't it look a bit suspicious that all it took was one small poorly detailed post to turn everyone against. I'm also pretty sure that's not the only WA related thread in the TNP forums.

I don't doubt that you did a fair bit of lobbying though.

OOC: I hope you are interpreting "lobby" with a grain of salt - the only post I made against it on the TNP forums (actually regarding the content, that is) is that first one of mine. And, if I recall, I hadn't actually read Tinhampton's critique of it when I wrote that. It's certainly possible, but I don't remember their influence. I think it's far more likely that several people came to the same conclusion on their own.

And I can confirm that the public thread that I linked is the only thread on the TNP forums for this proposal. Unless there's some higher thread that I can't see for some reason, which seems highly unlikely.

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Ultior
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Postby Ultior » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:44 pm

Morover wrote:
Ultior wrote:Doesn't it look a bit suspicious that all it took was one small poorly detailed post to turn everyone against. I'm also pretty sure that's not the only WA related thread in the TNP forums.

I don't doubt that you did a fair bit of lobbying though.

OOC: I hope you are interpreting "lobby" with a grain of salt - the only post I made against it on the TNP forums (actually regarding the content, that is) is that first one of mine. And, if I recall, I hadn't actually read Tinhampton's critique of it when I wrote that. It's certainly possible, but I don't remember their influence. I think it's far more likely that several people came to the same conclusion on their own.

And I can confirm that the public thread that I linked is the only thread on the TNP forums for this proposal. Unless there's some higher thread that I can't see for some reason, which seems highly unlikely.

Tinhampton does have a fair bit of influence. Its not only possible, but plausible.

I'm not saying there would be another thread for my proposal- that's ridiculous. I'm referring to a general WA thread, I'm fairly certain that there is one. Its also likely that they have other WA related threads as well. TNP is a large region with a powerful and complex government.

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Ultior
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Founded: Jan 17, 2018
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Postby Ultior » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:48 pm

I'm not going to argue on this anymore. Its clear that this is turning into a pointless debate.

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Bormiar
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Postby Bormiar » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:54 pm

Just gonna be frank rather than polite: Tinhampton can't influence anyone else's vote, and most of us haven't read critics of the draft from him. If you can't admit that Norrlands looks like they were godmodding and that your proposal failed because it wasn't good enough, then you will have a hard time in the Security Council.

And you don't have to argue, either. Maybe you need to do a little bit of listening.
Last edited by Bormiar on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lyrical International Brigade
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:56 pm

Ultior wrote:
Bormiar wrote:I see where the confusion is coming from. Tin did not play a major role in this failing because - whether or not he argued against it on TNP's forums, which he didn't - everyone was against the proposal anyways. Both Tinhampton and everyone else voted against the proposal. Is it reasonable to you to assume that Tinhampton is the cause of that, rather than being yet another critic voting against because the proposal isn't as good as it needed to be?

Again- I'm not blaming Tinhampton for the entirety of this. My point here is that the main cause (not the entire cause) for defeat was lobbying. That's all I really have to say about this.


Or - OR - call me crazy - there wasn't enough in your draft to justify a full Security Council condemnation, as at least three other people pointed out in this very thread.

But sure, go ahead and blame the person who gave you the most detailed swath of advice on why it's not a popular resolution. By all means. :roll:
Last edited by Lyrical International Brigade on Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Praeceps
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Postby Praeceps » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:40 pm

Ultior wrote:Doesn't it look a bit suspicious that all it took was one small poorly detailed post to turn everyone against. I'm also pretty sure that's not the only WA related thread in the TNP forums.

I don't doubt that you did a fair bit of lobbying though.

Speaking as someone who voted in that thread, I was not influenced by anyone else's post in that thread. I had been paying attention to the drafting of this resolution and opposed it.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Sat Jan 25, 2020 9:57 pm

Ultior wrote:Tinhampton does have a fair bit of influence. Its not only possible, but plausible.

I'm not saying there would be another thread for my proposal- that's ridiculous. I'm referring to a general WA thread, I'm fairly certain that there is one. Its also likely that they have other WA related threads as well. TNP is a large region with a powerful and complex government.

Yeah no. You are trying to condemn someone who has done nothing really on NationStates itself. From what I gather, most of these atrocities occurred during an RP based on Discord. That right there is why people voted against this. There was zero lobbying on Tin's part.

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The Kingdom of Pholand
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Kingdom of Pholand » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:36 am

Seeing as no nation is free of doing inhumane acts its hard to condemn nations.But when it is brought to the attention of thousands of nations before the security council you cannot turn a blind eye to disgusting acts. Eight millions deaths by conducting an unprovoked nuclear strike against a foreign, sovereign nation is grounds for condemnation. Who knows perhaps they were testing their nuclear capabilities which makes it even worse because they tested outside their territory. Therefore it is all of our duties to condemn Norrlands.

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Yohannes
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Re: [AT VOTE] Condemn Norrlands

Postby Yohannes » Sun Jan 26, 2020 12:31 pm

Against

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Kananji
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Founded: Dec 03, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Kananji » Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:13 pm

This nation has committed military crimes BEYOND ethical. This nation should be Condemned at all costs. we cannot allow this nation to wreak havoc on the world any longer. -President of Kananji
Last edited by Kananji on Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:40 pm

Ultior wrote:
Bormiar wrote:I see where the confusion is coming from. Tin did not play a major role in this failing because - whether or not he argued against it on TNP's forums, which he didn't - everyone was against the proposal anyways. Both Tinhampton and everyone else voted against the proposal. Is it reasonable to you to assume that Tinhampton is the cause of that, rather than being yet another critic voting against because the proposal isn't as good as it needed to be?

Again- I'm not blaming Tinhampton for the entirety of this. My point here is that the main cause (not the entire cause) for defeat was lobbying. That's all I really have to say about this.


He could have lobbied for your proposal and it would still be getting crushed all the same. The main cause for defeat was the extremely weak nature of it. If what you described in your proposal met what the SC considers worthy of a Condemnation, the SC wouldn't have 295 resolutions on its books. It would have 295,000.
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Kananji
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Postby Kananji » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:11 am

HOW COULD YOU! This country has committed the worst war crimes imaginable, and you SUPPORT HIM! You may be next to be attacked. Think about it. He has crossed the line and should be Condemned. -President of Kananji

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Yokiria
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Postby Yokiria » Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:39 am

Kananji wrote:HOW COULD YOU! This country has committed the worst war crimes imaginable, and you SUPPORT HIM! You may be next to be attacked. Think about it. He has crossed the line and should be Condemned. -President of Kananji

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