[MEGATHREAD] Unusual Issue Effects

[Yirophia]

It's a fancy nation simulator game for fun, not a nuclear launch system. In real life there's armies worth of economists, statistical analysts, and other technocrats at the ready to tell the political class, at least broadly, what effects a policy can be expected to bring about and why.

... I mean, they don't listen to the people who actually know these things, most of the time, but still.

Nonetheless, we all agree to certain disclosure rules when we sign up to the various volunteer roles, so this discussion is closed.

[sensibly chuckles in proxies, puppets, information leaks, an entire universe outside of NS, database lurking, and the unstoppable force of mathematics that is statistical analysis all existing simultaneously]

Right, well, I'm sure there's plenty of info on whatever you're hiding just a quick internet search away, if you insist. Who knows, maybe you're even one of the ones who have talked, just not on this site, under this alias. Anyway....

This nation, just a minute ago. Issue 890, option 4.

Code: Select all

Black MarketEnergy-mass credits 121,900,000,000 → 174,600,000,000 43.2% Eco-FriendlinessDolphin Recycling Awareness Index 786.68 → 884.05 12.4% PrimitivenessScary Big Number Scale -190.07 → -177.31 6.7% WeatherMeters Of Sunlight 122.00 → 128.00 4.9% Environmental BeautyPounds Of Wildlife Per Square Mile 810.55 → 850.25 4.9% Freedom From TaxationHayek Index 40.78 → 42.59 4.4% AuthoritarianismmilliStalins 398.23 → 410.00 3.0% PacifismCheeks Turned Per Day 59.60 → 61.35 2.9% NicenessAverage Smiles Per Day 20.14 → 20.70 2.8% Income EqualityMarx-Engels Emancipation Scale 41.47 → 42.56 2.6% TourismTourists Per Hour 1,218.00 → 1,238.64 1.7% IgnoranceMissed References Per Hour 1.47 → 1.49 1.4% CompassionKitten Softness Rating 52.16 → 52.84 1.3% Industry: Cheese ExportsMozzarella Productivity Index 83.91 → 84.87 1.1% Business SubsidizationGilded Widget Scale 2,097.81 → 2,121.73 1.1% Industry: Pizza DeliveryPepperoni Propulsion Productivity Index 910.45 → 920.83 1.1% Industry: Basket WeavingHickory Productivity Index 999.96 → 1,011.36 1.1% Law EnforcementOrwell Orderliness Index 1,748.18 → 1,768.11 1.1% Industry: Arms ManufacturingCharon Conveyancy Index 2,741.14 → 2,772.39 1.1% Industry: GamblingKelly Criterion Productivity Index 2,327.17 → 2,353.70 1.1% Industry: Book PublishingBella Potter Productivity e-Index 6,922.78 → 7,001.70 1.1% Industry: Furniture RestorationSpitz-Pollish Productivity Index 3,915.92 → 3,960.56 1.1% Public EducationEdu-tellignce® Test Score 4,632.67 → 4,685.48 1.1% Industry: MiningBlue Sky Asbestos Index 6,013.73 → 6,082.28 1.1% Defense ForcesTotal War Preparedness Rating 2,622.27 → 2,652.16 1.1% Sector: ManufacturingGooback-Jerbs Productivity Index 3,811.03 → 3,854.47 1.1% Industry: InsuranceRisk Expulsion Effectiveness Rating 2,377.52 → 2,404.62 1.1% Public TransportSocietal Mobility Rating 699.27 → 707.24 1.1% WelfareSafety Net Mesh Density Rating 3,234.13 → 3,270.99 1.1% Sector: AgricultureMu-Bah-Daggs Productivity Index 1,835.59 → 1,856.51 1.1% Public HealthcareTheresa-Nightingale Rating 1,573.36 → 1,591.29 1.1% Industry: Beverage SalesAddison-Fukk Productivity Rating 367.12 → 371.30 1.1% Foreign AidClooney Contribution Index 349.64 → 353.62 1.1% Industry: Automobile ManufacturingHenry Ford Productivity Index 69.93 → 70.72 1.1% Industry: Timber WoodchippingTasmanian Pulp Environmental Export Index 69.93 → 70.72 1.1% AveragenessAverage Standardized Normality Scale 44.81 → 45.07 0.58% ComplianceLaw-abiding Acts Per Hour 68.53 → 68.70 0.25% TaxationEffective Tax Rate 38.27 → 38.35 0.21% Government SizeBureaucratic Comprehensiveness Rating Scale Index 16.22 → 16.25 0.18% ObesityObesity Rate 9.80 → 9.78 0.20% CrimeCrimes Per Hour 2.38 → 2.37 0.42% Human Development IndexHuman Development Index 70.16 → 69.72 0.63% EconomyKrugman-Greenspan Business Outlook Index 91.74 → 91.15 0.64% Average Income of PoorEnergy-mass credits 51,767.39 → 51,403.26 0.70% EmploymentWorkforce Participation Rate 65.64 → 65.06 0.88% IntelligenceQuips Per Hour 47.27 → 46.85 0.89% Average Disposable IncomeEnergy-mass credits 51,042.69 → 49,977.27 2.1% Average IncomeEnergy-mass credits 82,727.22 → 81,000.44 2.1% Economic OutputEnergy-mass credits 48,065,000,000,000 → 47,061,000,000,000 2.1% WeaponizationWeapons Per Person 0.43 → 0.42 2.3% Wealth GapsRich To Poor Income Ratio 2.41 → 2.35 2.5% Ideological RadicalityPaul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index 10.19 → 9.93 2.6% RudenessInsults Per Minute 69.73 → 67.75 2.8% Average Income of RichEnergy-mass credits 124,837.24 → 120,778.51 3.3% Economic FreedomRand Index 51.22 → 49.44 3.5% CharmlessnessKardashian Reflex Score 0.88 → 0.84 4.5% Scientific AdvancementKurzweil Singularity Index 195.86 → 183.50 6.3% Industry: Information TechnologyFann-Boi Productivity Index 14,544.83 → 12,588.91 13.4% Industry: RetailShrinkwrap Consignment Productivity Index 3,915.92 → 3,324.04 15.1%

Meanwhile in reality (to skip a lot of econ work which I myself don't even have a formal understanding of, just picked up from a friend who's an econ grad), sales tax/VAT/general consumption taxes on non-essential items = good. Anything that doesn't have perfectly price-inelastic demand (i.e. people will in principle buy the same quantity of it whether it costs 1 unit of monies or 20,000 unit of monies) will experience a reduction in sales, but that money doesn't just go poof. It gets shifted to a mix of mostly savings (i.e. economic growth; "savings = investment = growth" is basically a statement of accounting fact, not even all that complex econ work) and government revenues (i.e. economic growth or some other measure of societal health if the government is actually not braindead). And you certainly would have a difficult time making a nation's black market explode to nearly 1.5x the size with anything short of the most extreme consumption taxes, especially on goods that would be extremely difficult for backdoor black/grey market shops, that don't charge consumption tax and pay it forward to the government, to produce or sell.

And seriously, the scientific advancement/primitiveness split on this is just disgusting. Having people constantly consume cheap disposable tech trash doesn't make your nation advanced, it would do the opposite if anything.

[Trotterdam]

Code: Select all

Black MarketEnergy-mass credits 121,900,000,000 → 174,600,000,000 43.2% Eco-FriendlinessDolphin Recycling Awareness Index 786.68 → 884.05 12.4% PrimitivenessScary Big Number Scale -190.07 → -177.31 6.7% WeatherMeters Of Sunlight 122.00 → 128.00 4.9% Environmental BeautyPounds Of Wildlife Per Square Mile 810.55 → 850.25 4.9% Freedom From TaxationHayek Index 40.78 → 42.59 4.4% AuthoritarianismmilliStalins 398.23 → 410.00 3.0% PacifismCheeks Turned Per Day 59.60 → 61.35 2.9% NicenessAverage Smiles Per Day 20.14 → 20.70 2.8% Income EqualityMarx-Engels Emancipation Scale 41.47 → 42.56 2.6% TourismTourists Per Hour 1,218.00 → 1,238.64 1.7% IgnoranceMissed References Per Hour 1.47 → 1.49 1.4% CompassionKitten Softness Rating 52.16 → 52.84 1.3% Industry: Cheese ExportsMozzarella Productivity Index 83.91 → 84.87 1.1% Business SubsidizationGilded Widget Scale 2,097.81 → 2,121.73 1.1% Industry: Pizza DeliveryPepperoni Propulsion Productivity Index 910.45 → 920.83 1.1% Industry: Basket WeavingHickory Productivity Index 999.96 → 1,011.36 1.1% Law EnforcementOrwell Orderliness Index 1,748.18 → 1,768.11 1.1% Industry: Arms ManufacturingCharon Conveyancy Index 2,741.14 → 2,772.39 1.1% Industry: GamblingKelly Criterion Productivity Index 2,327.17 → 2,353.70 1.1% Industry: Book PublishingBella Potter Productivity e-Index 6,922.78 → 7,001.70 1.1% Industry: Furniture RestorationSpitz-Pollish Productivity Index 3,915.92 → 3,960.56 1.1% Public EducationEdu-tellignce® Test Score 4,632.67 → 4,685.48 1.1% Industry: MiningBlue Sky Asbestos Index 6,013.73 → 6,082.28 1.1% Defense ForcesTotal War Preparedness Rating 2,622.27 → 2,652.16 1.1% Sector: ManufacturingGooback-Jerbs Productivity Index 3,811.03 → 3,854.47 1.1% Industry: InsuranceRisk Expulsion Effectiveness Rating 2,377.52 → 2,404.62 1.1% Public TransportSocietal Mobility Rating 699.27 → 707.24 1.1% WelfareSafety Net Mesh Density Rating 3,234.13 → 3,270.99 1.1% Sector: AgricultureMu-Bah-Daggs Productivity Index 1,835.59 → 1,856.51 1.1% Public HealthcareTheresa-Nightingale Rating 1,573.36 → 1,591.29 1.1% Industry: Beverage SalesAddison-Fukk Productivity Rating 367.12 → 371.30 1.1% Foreign AidClooney Contribution Index 349.64 → 353.62 1.1% Industry: Automobile ManufacturingHenry Ford Productivity Index 69.93 → 70.72 1.1% Industry: Timber WoodchippingTasmanian Pulp Environmental Export Index 69.93 → 70.72 1.1% AveragenessAverage Standardized Normality Scale 44.81 → 45.07 0.58% ComplianceLaw-abiding Acts Per Hour 68.53 → 68.70 0.25% TaxationEffective Tax Rate 38.27 → 38.35 0.21% Government SizeBureaucratic Comprehensiveness Rating Scale Index 16.22 → 16.25 0.18% ObesityObesity Rate 9.80 → 9.78 0.20% CrimeCrimes Per Hour 2.38 → 2.37 0.42% Human Development IndexHuman Development Index 70.16 → 69.72 0.63% EconomyKrugman-Greenspan Business Outlook Index 91.74 → 91.15 0.64% Average Income of PoorEnergy-mass credits 51,767.39 → 51,403.26 0.70% EmploymentWorkforce Participation Rate 65.64 → 65.06 0.88% IntelligenceQuips Per Hour 47.27 → 46.85 0.89% Average Disposable IncomeEnergy-mass credits 51,042.69 → 49,977.27 2.1% Average IncomeEnergy-mass credits 82,727.22 → 81,000.44 2.1% Economic OutputEnergy-mass credits 48,065,000,000,000 → 47,061,000,000,000 2.1% WeaponizationWeapons Per Person 0.43 → 0.42 2.3% Wealth GapsRich To Poor Income Ratio 2.41 → 2.35 2.5% Ideological RadicalityPaul-Nader Subjective Decentrality Index 10.19 → 9.93 2.6% RudenessInsults Per Minute 69.73 → 67.75 2.8% Average Income of RichEnergy-mass credits 124,837.24 → 120,778.51 3.3% Economic FreedomRand Index 51.22 → 49.44 3.5% CharmlessnessKardashian Reflex Score 0.88 → 0.84 4.5% Scientific AdvancementKurzweil Singularity Index 195.86 → 183.50 6.3% Industry: Information TechnologyFann-Boi Productivity Index 14,544.83 → 12,588.91 13.4% Industry: RetailShrinkwrap Consignment Productivity Index 3,915.92 → 3,324.04 15.1%

I'm not going to comment on the actual results, but the way you quoted them here is horrifically unreadable.

[Yirophia]

I'm not going to comment on the actual results, but the way you quoted them here is horrifically unreadable.

I couldn't be bothered to actually re-format them, this is a raw copypaste from the issue effects. If you want copypasted issue effects to be legible at a glance, I'd suggest you pester someone who can change how they're formatted in the first place, rather than trying to demand that someone like me manually fiddle with them every time they want to copy them over. They can, in fact, still be read, if you carefully comb through them.

[Asle Leopolka]

#131 - "Raise Duel Standards, say Fencers"

Choosing the option that outlaws dueling decreases intelligence, economic output, income of the rich, and average income. This makes zero sense, as the description is "arbitration is mightier than the sword," indicating more civil cases are occurring. In addition, it increases social conservatism, which makes zero sense as this is a pacifist option.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

#131 - "Raise Duel Standards, say Fencers"

Choosing the option that outlaws dueling decreases intelligence, economic output, income of the rich, and average income. This makes zero sense, as the description is "arbitration is mightier than the sword," indicating more civil cases are occurring. In addition, it increases social conservatism, which makes zero sense as this is a pacifist option.

A lot of the changes you've flagged relate to a specific game eccentricity where part of civil rights is based on the freedom to do things that would be illegal in most nations, in this case, the right to murder someone.

This oddity was flagged and is under review, and once Beta 17 goes live (https://www.nationstates.net/page=beta?beta=17) you won't see those odd effects any more.

[Wops]

On this day I abolished the government in this nation with the first option of #192 Coup d'Etat In @@NAME@@!
This set the gov't size to 0 and set the gov't chart to 'Complete Abolition of Government: 100%'. However, I was amused to discover that my citizens still pay income tax: '2.3%, but much higher for the wealthy.'
I don't suppose this is an error?

[Trotterdam]

This set the gov't size to 0 and set the gov't chart to 'Complete Abolition of Government: 100%'.

"a small group of community-minded, corrupt, socially-minded, well-organized individuals"
That's an interesting string of adjectives.

[Wops]

This set the gov't size to 0 and set the gov't chart to 'Complete Abolition of Government: 100%'.

"a small group of community-minded, corrupt, socially-minded, well-organized individuals"
That's an interesting string of adjectives.

They are an odd bunch. Nobody's quite sure what they're up to.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

For the issues that abolish government, the assumption is that after a short period of anarchy a minimal government always re-establishes itself.

Of course, if you prefer to rp the idea that the nation has ceased to exist and no longer has any government or leadership, then you can simulate this by deleting your nation.

[Kerchistania]

Hi all!

I got this issue #334: Blot Out Bauhaus recently, and I think it was missing some effects when I selected the №2 option. I thought that it will increase my civil freedom and reduce social conservatism but they were not even included. Any thoughts on this

[Wops]

For the issues that abolish government, the assumption is that after a short period of anarchy a minimal government always re-establishes itself.

Well, yes, after a short period. I expect a gov't to re-emerge after I've answered issues that imply there's going to be a gov't doing things (e.g. if I was funding things). I wouldn't expect a new gov't to emerge as I've just abolished the last one (and while the game is telling me that I still have none).

[SherpDaWerp]

For the issues that abolish government, the assumption is that after a short period of anarchy a minimal government always re-establishes itself.

Well, yes, after a short period. I expect a gov't to re-emerge after I've answered issues that imply there's going to be a gov't doing things (e.g. if I was funding things). I wouldn't expect a new gov't to emerge as I've just abolished the last one (and while the game is telling me that I still have none).

The idea is that if there's no government, noone can answer issues. If the game had to wait until you picked an issue reinstating government then it wouldn't make a cohesive narrative in-game. If there's no government, why does the country keep making decisions to fund things? So the assumption is that immediately after the government is abolished someone steps into the power vacuum, otherwise the nation would effectively be locked out of answering issues.

[Trotterdam]

There still exist nations that have tax rates lower than 2.3% in the game. And so not being one of them should mean something. Which is weird when there's nothing you could possibly be spending the taxes on.

[Wops]

The idea that a new gov't has already come about doesn't appear to cooperate with the whole 'Complete Abolition of Government' thing I was telling you about.

I'm not too upset about still having taxes, as I'm not aiming for no income tax. I just thought it might be an error.

[Bears Armed]

There still exist nations that have tax rates lower than 2.3% in the game. And so not being one of them should mean something. Which is weird when there's nothing you could possibly be spending the taxes on.

Maybe the money is going into somebody's offshore bank account...

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Hi all!

I got this issue #334: Blot Out Bauhaus recently, and I think it was missing some effects when I selected the №2 option. I thought that it will increase my civil freedom and reduce social conservatism but they were not even included. Any thoughts on this

You've not had it in the last couple of days. Please confirm the nation and the date the issue was received.

I suspect though that the answer to your question may be covered in the FAQ in the first post of this thread.

[Authoritaria-Imperia]

I realise that this has already been covered in this thread, and I've read the explanations for why this happens, but I just got A Nude Day, a Nude Awakening and picked the second option, which worked against everything I want. Since it seems a fair few people have been bothered by the same thing, is it feasible to suggest changes be made to the issue so that more people don't end up with unwanted effects?

I know you guys generally aren't in the habit of changing old issues, but the effects for this option are pretty big, and it doesn't seem fair to have people continue to fall victim to it (it's so counterintuitive!).

[Candlewhisper Archive]

I realise that this has already been covered in this thread, and I've read the explanations for why this happens, but I just got A Nude Day, a Nude Awakening and picked the second option, which worked against everything I want. Since it seems a fair few people have been bothered by the same thing, is it feasible to suggest changes be made to the issue so that more people don't end up with unwanted effects?

I know you guys generally aren't in the habit of changing old issues, but the effects for this option are pretty big, and it doesn't seem fair to have people continue to fall victim to it (it's so counterintuitive!).

Can you be more specific about what effects you found unexpected?

I'm guessing its the civil rights increase, which is -- as previously noted -- to do with the right to privacy being a civil right, and the fact that your nation already is at maximal censorship but had low respect for privacy. Essentially by changing the internet from something that the government can censor into something that the government AND private individuals can censor, you've empowered your citizens.

[Authoritaria-Imperia]

I realise that this has already been covered in this thread, and I've read the explanations for why this happens, but I just got A Nude Day, a Nude Awakening and picked the second option, which worked against everything I want. Since it seems a fair few people have been bothered by the same thing, is it feasible to suggest changes be made to the issue so that more people don't end up with unwanted effects?

I know you guys generally aren't in the habit of changing old issues, but the effects for this option are pretty big, and it doesn't seem fair to have people continue to fall victim to it (it's so counterintuitive!).

Can you be more specific about what effects you found unexpected?

I'm guessing its the civil rights increase, which is -- as previously noted -- to do with the right to privacy being a civil right, and the fact that your nation already is at maximal censorship but had low respect for privacy. Essentially by changing the internet from something that the government can censor into something that the government AND private individuals can censor, you've empowered your citizens.

Yup, it was the Civil Rights thing, plus a frustrating drop in Authoritarianism. I understand your reasoning, although I think these effects should have been counteracted by the loss of the right to post pictures of people. But I digress — in any case, I realise that this has been discussed before, and that means other people are falling for the issue and getting unintended consequences.

I think that this issue is counterintuitive. This option is portrayed as one of censorship and control, rather than of the right to privacy, in a number of ways — like how the speaker is described as a "staunch censorship advocate". My request is that small modifications be made to make the issue (or at least, the option) a bit more up-front. I know you guys aren't in the habit of changing old issues for quality's sake, but as players will continue to fall for this arguably-misleading option, I figured a change might be more justified.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

Also, side question — if I wanted to contact you, would you respond to telegrams, @Candlewhisper Archive?

[Candlewhisper Archive]

No don't telegram me, thanks. I get a lot of messages from players who want a direct line, and I direct them to the GI forum.

That counterintuitive outcome is discussed in the first post FAQ, and is inherent to the core game engine. There's no way to fix that situation without rewriting the game engine at a fundamental level.

Consider the topic closed, please.

[Verdant Haven]

Just had issue #538 (@@LEADER@@ Let Your People Go!), on the subject of gender-based toilets causing lines/being unfair to women, due to longer lines.

I selected Option 3, presented by a gender-fluid individual, to remove gender restrictions on toilets in order to allow equal usage rights for everybody on each one.

I was surprised to see that this led to a reduction in Civil Rights, and increases in Social Conservatism, Authoritarianism, and Government Size. It would seem to me that removing regulatory restrictions, increasing equality, and improving the lot for non-binary individuals would be the opposite of all of these.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Just had issue #538 (@@LEADER@@ Let Your People Go!), on the subject of gender-based toilets causing lines/being unfair to women, due to longer lines.

I selected Option 3, presented by a gender-fluid individual, to remove gender restrictions on toilets in order to allow equal usage rights for everybody on each one.

I was surprised to see that this led to a reduction in Civil Rights, and increases in Social Conservatism, Authoritarianism, and Government Size. It would seem to me that removing regulatory restrictions, increasing equality, and improving the lot for non-binary individuals would be the opposite of all of these.

Same deal as the previous query, but a different angle.

Your gender-based civil rights were already super strong, but the loss of privacy had a negative impact on civil rights.

90% of the time when people report civil rights moving the wrong way it's because they have a nation near the extremes, and the civil right to privacy is the only significant change.

Nature of the sim, I'm afraid, as covered in the OP.

[Verdant Haven]

Gotcha, thanks Candle! I guess I don't really consider my Civil Rights very high, since I'm barely in the top quintile. While I'm familiar with that reverse effect at the extremes, I had discounted the possibility in my case, since we don't see the specific subcategories within the stats.

Separately (not a complaint, just a personal reflection) I guess I wouldn't call this a privacy loss myself! I suppose I can see how more conservative folks might see it as such.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Gotcha, thanks Candle! I guess I don't really consider my Civil Rights very high, since I'm barely in the top quintile. While I'm familiar with that reverse effect at the extremes, I had discounted the possibility in my case, since we don't see the specific subcategories within the stats.

Separately (not a complaint, just a personal reflection) I guess I wouldn't call this a privacy loss myself! I suppose I can see how more conservative folks might see it as such.

Yeah, if you don't care who you pee in front of it's not a problem, but a lot of folk feel uncomfortable about urinating in front of people not of their own gender.

[Trotterdam]

Yeah, if you don't care who you pee in front of it's not a problem, but a lot of folk feel uncomfortable about urinating in front of people not of their own gender.

I feel uncomfortable urinating in front of people my own gender, too (I absolutely refuse to use urinals). But I don't consider myself to be "in front of" anyone if I'm behind a locked stall door. Two closed doors don't give that much more privacy than one.