Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

[Heloin]

Seriously, shadow banning would be a lot more brutal than debating with a lead wall. All you're doing is giving away Social Credit Points.

If you don’t want to bother with IM then that’s your prerogative.

[Gormwood]

Seriously, shadow banning would be a lot more brutal than debating with a lead wall. All you're doing is giving away Social Credit Points.

If you don’t want to bother with IM then that’s your prerogative.

Blocks don't work when every body else keeps addressing him.

[Heloin]

If you don’t want to bother with IM then that’s your prerogative.

Blocks don't work when every body else keeps addressing him.

And?

[Gormwood]

Blocks don't work when every body else keeps addressing him.

And?

I'd rather not have to watch people braining themselves against a lead wall while trying to get details on Hong Kong.

[Infected Mushroom]

I believe that Mr. Geng Shuen, the foreign ministry spokesperson for the PRC, has said that all that needs to be said at this time to address the truth regarding the barring of Kenneth

Except he didn't. He alluded to evidence but didn't give any.

I am satisfied with his answer and I find that it answers all of my queries regarding the matter

The only reason you are satisfied is because he said exactly what you wanted to hear, because it corresponds to the party line that you adhere to.

If anything else, this puts me inside the realm of the truth (since the existence of evidence has been disclosed by a reputable government party), and all detractors of this position within the realm of conspiracy theory.

He. Gave. No. Evidence. If anything the accusations and lack of evidence given puts the party, and you by merit of adhering to them, squarely in the realm of lies.

The PRC government has come forth and said "hey we've got literal proof that he's the leader of an NGO that tried to destabilise Hong Kong and China"... now the ball has been passed to you.

The PRC has cleared everything up.

Bullshit. It has cleared up fuck all when they have made accusations with no evidence.

He gave testimony (which I believe) as to the existence of considerable evidence that the Human Rights Watch and other NGOs were responsible for promoting and supporting extremism, violence, and Hong Kong separatism. Now Kenneth is the leader or the “head” so he’s definitely involved. That is itself evidence of evidence in the same way that a sworn testimony in court counts for something.

This isn’t some rando, this is a spokesperson for the PRC foreign ministry. When he speaks, he does so in a state capacity. He’s representing the great Chinese State itself. He’s saying, “look, I’m telling you, the evidence exists.” That’s good enough for me.

Now why is the evidence not disclosed at this point? It’s because the government is still building a complete case against them (all the relevant NGOs).

[The New California Republic]

Except he didn't. He alluded to evidence but didn't give any.


The only reason you are satisfied is because he said exactly what you wanted to hear, because it corresponds to the party line that you adhere to.


He. Gave. No. Evidence. If anything the accusations and lack of evidence given puts the party, and you by merit of adhering to them, squarely in the realm of lies.


Bullshit. It has cleared up fuck all when they have made accusations with no evidence.

He gave testimony (which I believe) as to the existence of considerable evidence that the Human Rights Watch and other NGOs were responsible for promoting and supporting extremism, violence, and Hong Kong separatism. Now Kenneth is the leader or the “head” so he’s definitely involved. That is itself evidence of evidence in the same way that a sworn testimony in court counts for something.

This isn’t some rando, this is a spokesperson for the PRC foreign ministry. When he speaks, he does so in a state capacity. He’s representing the great Chinese State itself. He’s saying, “look, I’m telling you, the evidence exists.” That’s good enough for me.

Now why is the evidence not disclosed at this point? It’s because the government is still building a complete case against them (all the relevant NGOs).

None of what you said makes what I said untrue. It's just an admission that he has no evidence, wrapped up in some bullshit. If you want to believe his lies, that's your prerogative. He has a motivation to lie: he wants to cover up the real reason for it, i.e. that what HRW was going to say would be embarrassing for the party. The fact Geng is a party member, contrary to your assertion, gives him more incentive to lie and makes his account less credible.

And you just couldn't resist throwing in some shilling could you? "The great Chinese State"

[Novus America]

Except he didn't. He alluded to evidence but didn't give any.


The only reason you are satisfied is because he said exactly what you wanted to hear, because it corresponds to the party line that you adhere to.


He. Gave. No. Evidence. If anything the accusations and lack of evidence given puts the party, and you by merit of adhering to them, squarely in the realm of lies.


Bullshit. It has cleared up fuck all when they have made accusations with no evidence.

He gave testimony (which I believe) as to the existence of considerable evidence that the Human Rights Watch and other NGOs were responsible for promoting and supporting extremism, violence, and Hong Kong separatism. Now Kenneth is the leader or the “head” so he’s definitely involved. That is itself evidence of evidence in the same way that a sworn testimony in court counts for something.

This isn’t some rando, this is a spokesperson for the PRC foreign ministry. When he speaks, he does so in a state capacity. He’s representing the great Chinese State itself. He’s saying, “look, I’m telling you, the evidence exists.” That’s good enough for me.

Now why is the evidence not disclosed at this point? It’s because the government is still building a complete case against them (all the relevant NGOs).

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

[The New California Republic]

He gave testimony (which I believe) as to the existence of considerable evidence that the Human Rights Watch and other NGOs were responsible for promoting and supporting extremism, violence, and Hong Kong separatism. Now Kenneth is the leader or the “head” so he’s definitely involved. That is itself evidence of evidence in the same way that a sworn testimony in court counts for something.

This isn’t some rando, this is a spokesperson for the PRC foreign ministry. When he speaks, he does so in a state capacity. He’s representing the great Chinese State itself. He’s saying, “look, I’m telling you, the evidence exists.” That’s good enough for me.

Now why is the evidence not disclosed at this point? It’s because the government is still building a complete case against them (all the relevant NGOs).

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

Pretty much. Geng's position alone does not override the fact that he provided no evidence. The "evidence of evidence" bullshit spouted by IM is pure unadulterated nonsense, as it is a clear fallacy.

[Infected Mushroom]

I take informal testimony/statements from reputable government sources that evidence exists to be evidence that evidence exists (itself evidence).

Hence, I draw a considerable amount of significance from the Foreign Ministry’s statement. And honestly given the sort of rhetoric NGOs regularly throw around, the allegations do not surprise me.

[The New California Republic]

I take informal testimony/statements from reputable government sources that evidence exists to be evidence that evidence exists (itself evidence).

Pathetic.

[Novus America]

I take informal testimony/statements from reputable government sources that evidence exists to be evidence that evidence exists (itself evidence).

Hence, I draw a considerable amount of significance from the Foreign Ministry’s statement. And honestly given the sort of rhetoric NGOs regularly throw around, the allegations do not surprise me.

Again simply repeating the same fallacious argument over an over (just because someone in the PRC government said something does not make it true) does not make it more convincing. It failed the last dozens times you made it, what makes this time different?
Why do you think it would work better this time?
Again it appears you are arguing to convince yourself, not us.

[Tuthina]

I take informal testimony/statements from reputable government sources that evidence exists to be evidence that evidence exists (itself evidence).

Hence, I draw a considerable amount of significance from the Foreign Ministry’s statement. And honestly given the sort of rhetoric NGOs regularly throw around, the allegations do not surprise me.

Again simply repeating the same fallacious argument over an over (just because someone in the PRC government said something does not make it true) does not make it more convincing. It failed the last dozens times you made it, what makes this time different?
Why do you think it would work better this time?
Again it appears you are arguing to convince yourself, not us.

Imagine trying to prove a point by asking people to trust the PRC government being honest, where the root cause of the movement is not trusting the PRC government being honest.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

the Foreign Ministry

You mean the same perfidious foreign ministry whose chief representative in Sweden spent the two last years shitting on my country until he realised he was on the expulsion list? That foreign ministry?

[The New California Republic]

the Foreign Ministry

You mean the same perfidious foreign ministry whose chief representative in Sweden spent the two last years shitting on my country until he realised he was on the expulsion list? That foreign ministry?

The same Foreign Ministry that keeps pushing the Nine-Dash Line lie of the PRC's claims over the South China Sea, even though under Annex VII to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea it has been shown that China has no legal basis to claim "historic rights" regarding the Nine-Dash Line. Yeah, that Foreign Ministry...

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

You mean the same perfidious foreign ministry whose chief representative in Sweden spent the two last years shitting on my country until he realised he was on the expulsion list? That foreign ministry?

The same Foreign Ministry that keeps pushing the Nine-Dash Line lie of the PRC's claims over the South China Sea, even though under Annex VII to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea it has been shown that China has no legal basis to claim "historic rights" regarding the Nine-Dash Line. Yeah, that Foreign Ministry...

Dont you realise NCR only western and japanese imperialists and colonialists can engage in imperialism and colonialism.
*hyperthonke*

[Bombadil]

Someone daubed Free Hong Kong on the little mermaid in Copenhagen, which I'm not sure helps anything.. one problem of a leaderless movement is that individuals can act contrary to the movement.

[Heloin]

Someone daubed Free Hong Kong on the little mermaid in Copenhagen, which I'm not sure helps anything.. one problem of a leaderless movement is that individuals can act contrary to the movement.

Increase the amount of words can’t be used in China. The great fire wall has to hold back all opposition, even if it always overcorrects.

[Pasong Tirad]

Someone daubed Free Hong Kong on the little mermaid in Copenhagen, which I'm not sure helps anything.. one problem of a leaderless movement is that individuals can act contrary to the movement.

Saw a bunch of Hong Kong solidarity signs at Tsai's victory gathering. That was cool, though.

[Gormwood]

Someone daubed Free Hong Kong on the little mermaid in Copenhagen, which I'm not sure helps anything.. one problem of a leaderless movement is that individuals can act contrary to the movement.

Sounds like someone trying to overload the Great Firewall. A Mongolian with a gas-soaked hardball.

[Bombadil]

American Factory is in contention for an Oscar, people should watch it to see the effects of the Chinese economy in your own lands..

In 2014, the Chinese auto glass manufacturer Fuyao bought a former General Motors car plant in Dayton, Ohio, that had been closed since 2008 – promising investment and hundreds of new jobs. Fuyao and its chairman Cao Dewang (referred to as “Chairman Cao”) were rewarded with euphoric praise – in a state that had been crushed by unemployment – and more than $6m in subsidies from Ohio state taxpayers.

The film shows how this good mood curdled as the workforce realised that to show their gratitude they were expected to conform to the Chinese culture of regimentation and submission, uncomplainingly working six or seven-day weeks, pushing up productivity at all costs and declining to make a fuss about decadent and lazy American indulgences such as lunch breaks and safety precautions. The management’s main concern was to crush any hint of a union. There is a major diplomatic incident at the opening ceremony when the Democratic Ohio state senator Sherrod Brown refers to the desirability of unions in his speech, to the displeasure of the Chinese management.

It is in China that we learn that unions there are not loathed, because they are an arm of the communist state, and the thought of them objecting to or impeding the management of a state-sanctioned company is unthinkable. American unions are of course a very different matter, and Fuyao is shown to ruthlessly intimidate trade unionists. The Chinese are also shown having policy meetings about how to deal with their exotic US workforce and a manager is shown calmly saying that it is their responsibility to give the Americans guidance “because we are better than them”.

[Tuthina]

Someone daubed Free Hong Kong on the little mermaid in Copenhagen, which I'm not sure helps anything.. one problem of a leaderless movement is that individuals can act contrary to the movement.

Saw a bunch of Hong Kong solidarity signs at Tsai's victory gathering. That was cool, though.

Tsai and her party is quite cool with standing in solidarity with Hong Kong, and doesn't mind said signs being held, though. Still, if someone asked, we would (and should) apologise on the behalf of whoever doing it. Unlike the pro-government folks, we ought to hold ourselves at higher standards and admit whatever flaws the movement have when we consider them to be legitimate. To put it simply, we are better than the pro-government camp, so we should act that part as well.

[Bombadil]

An investigation by Hong Kong’s police watchdog into the conduct of the city’s officers throughout recent unrest has revealed “many shortcomings,” the Hong Kong Economic Journal reported.

The 300-page report from the Independent Police Complaints Council found a failure to separate peaceful demonstrators from violent protesters, the newspaper reported Monday, citing unidentified people. The probe also determined there was a lack of communication among front-line police commanders during protests and insufficient “cease-fire” guidelines when using tear gas, the paper said.

Link

To be honest I'm not sure how much HK will trust this report, whether it will be viewed as ceding minor issues but generally whitewashing police actions.

The report, however, won’t feature extended sections on two prominent incidents that spurred outrage against the police: the July 21 attacks on protesters and subway passengers by mobs of men wearing white T-shirts in Yuen Long and the riot police’s Aug. 31 storming of a subway station in Prince Edward.

Not that it even might be released, and it will certainly be edited by the government..

The report, which hasn’t yet been officially released, is scheduled to be discussed at a meeting of the IPCC this week. If approved, it would be submitted to Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam for possible release in the coming weeks.

[Tuthina]

An investigation by Hong Kong’s police watchdog into the conduct of the city’s officers throughout recent unrest has revealed “many shortcomings,” the Hong Kong Economic Journal reported.

The 300-page report from the Independent Police Complaints Council found a failure to separate peaceful demonstrators from violent protesters, the newspaper reported Monday, citing unidentified people. The probe also determined there was a lack of communication among front-line police commanders during protests and insufficient “cease-fire” guidelines when using tear gas, the paper said.

Link

To be honest I'm not sure how much HK will trust this report, whether it will be viewed as ceding minor issues but generally whitewashing police actions.

The report, however, won’t feature extended sections on two prominent incidents that spurred outrage against the police: the July 21 attacks on protesters and subway passengers by mobs of men wearing white T-shirts in Yuen Long and the riot police’s Aug. 31 storming of a subway station in Prince Edward.

Not that it even might be released, and it will certainly be edited by the government..

The report, which hasn’t yet been officially released, is scheduled to be discussed at a meeting of the IPCC this week. If approved, it would be submitted to Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam for possible release in the coming weeks.

Because it's missing the two most crucial elements that people care about the most: the prominent incidents that turn the move from simply "police vs protesters" to "police vs everyone not on their side (sometimes even on)", and that whether the police officers found responsible for the aforementioned shortcomings will be punished for that. Given IPCC's track record, though, can't say the latter is very likely. Maybe a few officers would become the proverbial sacrifice, but the police force as a whole likely would be able to get off the hook, so to speak.

All the more reason to demand for an independent investigation with the power of actually doing the investigation and not sucking up to the police, really.

[Bombadil]

All the more reason to demand for an independent investigation with the power of actually doing the investigation and not sucking up to the police, really.

Well the simple and sad truth is that China is effectively in direct control of all aspects of HK now, and there's simply no way they will allow an objective, independent investigation.

HK is dead now, it is irrevocably changed, the only possible hope is for the CCP to die.

Interestingly, for the first time ever, Immigration Department has rejected an employee visa application, word on the ground is they're tightening up on foreign workers. We've already seen in the past couple of years that China has been arresting and throwing out teachers..

BEIJING, August 13 (Reuters) - Arrests and deportations of foreign teachers in China have soared this year, lawyers, schools and teachers say, amid a broad crackdown defined by new police tactics and Beijing’s push for a “cleaner”, more patriotic education system.

Link

One silver lining is that IM might be thrown out at some point as they reform education in HK, they're already closely scrutinising teachers and demanding more 'patriotic' education in HK.

[Tuthina]

All the more reason to demand for an independent investigation with the power of actually doing the investigation and not sucking up to the police, really.

Well the simple and sad truth is that China is effectively in direct control of all aspects of HK now, and there's simply no way they will allow an objective, independent investigation.

HK is dead now, it is irrevocably changed, the only possible hope is for the CCP to die.

Interestingly, for the first time ever, Immigration Department has rejected an employee visa application, word on the ground is they're tightening up on foreign workers. We've already seen in the past couple of years that China has been arresting and throwing out teachers..

BEIJING, August 13 (Reuters) - Arrests and deportations of foreign teachers in China have soared this year, lawyers, schools and teachers say, amid a broad crackdown defined by new police tactics and Beijing’s push for a “cleaner”, more patriotic education system.

Link

One silver lining is that IM might be thrown out at some point as they reform education in HK, they're already closely scrutinising teachers and demanding more 'patriotic' education in HK.

Or IM can double down on their inane comments here in an attempt to make themselves look more patriotic. Still, I do think emigration might have to be the last resort if we really lost the fight.