[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[Kaboomlandia]

Twins of Hearts, I don't think you've actually done any research at all into why these players were "blacklisted" in the first place. Hint: they weren't. They were rightfully kicked out because of their own actions. There's no grudges here.

[Tim-Opolis]

My favorite part of all this is honestly the fact that Drunken Conquerors is wasting so much time and energy on something that will ultimately accomplish nothing. I would reference “All that for a drop of blood” from Thanos, but not even that has been accomplished.

Please, go ahead and keep going though, it’s good to have something to criticize that we can all collectively conclude is an absolute farce.

[WayNeacTia]

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.

I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

You can send telegrams and shout from your soapbox until you are blue in the face. It has been said before THERE IS NO BLACKLIST! I really don't know what you are hoping to accomplish with any of this, other than living out some fantasy and spamming people.

[The Church of Satan]

Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

[WayNeacTia]

Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

You know what happens when you assume right?

[Sedgistan]

I've done my best to split this from Neutral Ground in an orderly fashion, but some of the conversation may be a little muddled as some posts overlapped both this discussion and those that stayed in Neutral Ground.

[The Blaatschapen]

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

You know what happens when you assume right?

I can assure that I know what happens.

[Honeydewistania]

Is there a point in arguing this? No matter how much telegram spam you send, how much arguing you do, there are always going to be people uncomfortable with those who have caused harm to others, and the communities that these people are in will want to take charge and bar the offenders to make their users feel safe. You talk about wanting people the freedom to ‘game’, but I can’t really game if I know someone like Plagentine is still allowed into other regions

[Bormiar]

You know what happens when you assume right?

I can assure that I know what happens.

I want to know what supposedly happens when people assume

[Honeydewistania]

I can assure that I know what happens.

I want to know what supposedly happens when people assume

Make an ass out of u and me

[Twins of Hearts]

Is there a point in arguing this? No matter how much telegram spam you send, how much arguing you do, there are always going to be people uncomfortable with those who have caused harm to others, and the communities that these people are in will want to take charge and bar the offenders to make their users feel safe. You talk about wanting people the freedom to ‘game’, but I can’t really game if I know someone like Plagentine is still allowed into other regions

I am trying my best not to repeat or belabour any points, but rather to respond to concerns and such.

As for specific player situations I am not speaking on those, as this is more a challenge to a deeply flawed, deeply ingrained system that the proponents of jokingly state "does not exist" but blacklisters appear quite fond of the existence of their ability to collaborate on shunning people without attempting conflict resolution or even any semblance of due process. That is my point, we can, and should, try to do better! Some of the smartest and most clever people I have ever interacted with on the internet came from this site, I just know we can do a better job of maintaining a healthy community without horrible shunning practices.

[Tim-Opolis]

Is there a point in arguing this?

There isn't, but he's seeking attention and we're just bored enough to grant it to him.

[Lord Dominator]

My favorite part of all this is honestly the fact that Drunken Conquerors is wasting so much time and energy on something that will ultimately accomplish nothing. I would reference “All that for a drop of blood” from Thanos, but not even that has been accomplished.

Please, go ahead and keep going though, it’s good to have something to criticize that we can all collectively conclude is an absolute farce.

To further this point, it doesn't matter how many people sign your petition if they have no ability to change something. This whitelist campaign is such a petition.

Is there a point in arguing this?

There isn't, but he's seeking attention and we're just bored enough to grant it to him.

Personally, I find the contribution to my post count quite nice

[The Church of Satan]

As for specific player situations I am not speaking on those, as this is more a challenge to a deeply flawed, deeply ingrained system that the proponents of jokingly state "does not exist" but blacklisters appear quite fond of the existence of their ability to collaborate on shunning people without attempting conflict resolution or even any semblance of due process. That is my point, we can, and should, try to do better! Some of the smartest and most clever people I have ever interacted with on the internet came from this site, I just know we can do a better job of maintaining a healthy community without horrible shunning practices.

You say that as if leaving the responsibility of punishing harassers and deviants to in-game court trials is a good idea, which is scary. They're inherently best handled by forum admins and mods, discord admins and mods, as well as regional founders where applicable. Leaving it up to chance will get people hurt more than they initially were. It would drive players away from their regions and away from NationStates.

[Tim-Opolis]

Personally, I find the contribution to my post count quite nice

Yeah I've been really needing to pump up my numbers lately, so it's good that we have such an easy topic to circlejerk without having to worry about anything coming about as a result of it.

[Aynia Moreaux]

Wow I'm late to the party.

So... You keep saying 'Blacklisted' players. I'd like to know what your definition of blacklisting is, and how you think it's ok for sexual predators, harassers, doxxers, abusers, manipulators, and liars to have second and third chances in this game.

I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.

These people did something to void that social contract and as such they no longer receive the benefits of the community. And I'm sorry but memories are not short as tempers in this game. You may be shunned for months or years, or forever. And I'm sorry but if you've been blacklisted for the above reasons I've mentioned then you deserve it and I don't take pity on you.

This sounds like a cry from people who have screwed up but want people to keep giving them chances they don't deserve. It also sounds a lot like jealousy. I can assure you that while there is no (to my knowledge) true NS 'Cabal' making all the decisions, there is a core group of active players who drive the events of the game forward. And I mean that's obvious and expected. The people who show up, the people who are active and contributing, are the people who are going to drive the plot forward and be in the center of attention.

So in the end, I can't support something like this. Having an unbiased impartial moderation committee to help oversee conflicts and help players who've made dumb mistakes integrate back into the game and pay their dues to who they've wronged, that's a little sketch, but I could get behind that more than a blatant attempt to get some of the most infamous blacklisted players back in the game and seemingly in everyone's good graces. Advocating for people who have done awful things isn't advocating for 'victims' of bullying and harassment. They aren't victims. They are the ones who decided to take the actions they did, and got themselves into the place they are now. They made their bed and now they have to lie in it.

[Domais]

I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.

Unwritten rules are no rules at law.

[Dilber]

You know what really makes people want to interact with people they have no interest in interacting with?

attempting to force them to do so.


(you can't force people to interact with those they don't want to. This is how relationships work in general)

[Lord Dominator]

I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.

Unwritten rules are no rules at law.

They are still rules by definition

[South Reinkalistan]

OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.

[Alyekra]

OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.

you have already failed

[Tim-Opolis]

OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.

you have already failed

Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating circlejerk.

[South Reinkalistan]

you have already failed

Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating circlejerk.

OOC: Ah, I see.

Well I'll be watching with popcorn. Having heard of some of Twins of Heart's past, I'm a helluva lot more sceptical about this campaign.

[Twins of Hearts]

Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

Owning your wrong would have been as sign of some maturity.

However the backstroke while pointing at me....eh. Not so much.

Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating edited obscenity out.

OOC: Ah, I see.

Well I'll be watching with popcorn. Having heard of some of Twins of Heart's past, I'm a helluva lot more sceptical about this campaign.

What you may or may not have heard about me is not relevant, as I and anyone I interacted with in this situation that keeps getting mentioned resolved our conflicts ourselves a good long time ago. This is not about me, rather about the practice of blacklisting and finding a better solution. The entrenchment and crystalized power structure behind the blacklist however, which to remind everyone that I am imperfect. A glaringly obvious statement, given that all of us are imperfect.

Staying focused on the positive, and moving the game in a positive direction is the focus of the whitelist campaign!

[Katganistan]

Just an observation: no one is obliged to associate with anyone they do not wish to associate with.