[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[Benevolent Thomas]

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

[The Blaatschapen]

Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.

Incredible, it's almost as if integrating back into NationStates is simpler than reintegrating back into society after incarceration. While NationStates is similar to society in that people are willing to stab literally ANYONE in the back to get ahead, there are many more differences than there ever are similarities, wouldn't you agree?

I disagree. I think society is better than that. My outlook on society is not Hobbesian (the philosopher, not the player).

[WayNeacTia]

Amazing, what if our prison system had that same attitude.

Most states do. It is called Disfranchisement. Think of being blacklisted as that.

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

That is the dream isn't it?

[Twins of Hearts]

So now you're painting it as a power play? There's no low you won't go, is there? Truly shameful.

The attempt to shame me by calling the white list campaign or myself “Truly Shameful” is not a hook I am going to bite. Please refrain from debasement, its uncomfortable. Thanks!

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

This is a blatant advertisement of the blacklist. “Them” being a few players who dared to out themselves and try to explain to a disbelieving forum reading nation about their situation, from their perspective.

While I am not surprised, I am disappointed in your choice to continue blacklist behavior.

Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.

You make some valid points. However, I do not believe “...convince someone that any risks you pose....” falls within a framework of mutual acknowledgement of the mutual harm the shame based, discriminatory blacklisting has done and then, and much more important, the healing of the actual nations and moving on from pointless, endless conflict.

Ooc: God a telegram that's not even a WA proposal this was annoying most don't want to even see this or have no idea what it's talking about
the ambassador starts thinking of blocking all telegram preferences and starts ripping whatever papers are in front of him

Sorry, I thought marking it as a campaign would be wise as I plan to attempt authoring a Wa proposal to increase civil rights and freedoms by outlawing the blacklist. That of course would be an IC and in game thing.

I have received well over 100 telegrams responding, and 80 percent were in support of eliminating the black list practice and replacing it with a better conflict resolution based model that keeps people playing, not griping over real or percieved offenses from x number of years gone by.

If there are those objecting to his idea simply because I authored it... well this is not necessary as Implementing a white list in a region would not involve me at all. This is grass roots, and removes nations from influencing others, perpetuating conflict in a negative manner, and promotes healing between the aggrieved parties thmselves.

[Vaculatestar64]

Amazing, what if our prison system had that same attitude.

Most states do. It is called Disfranchisement. Think of being blacklisted as that.

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

That is the dream isn't it?

The vast majority of the USA, save for a very few states in the deep south are moving or have moved far away from that method, and I've heard many people within the power groups of this game speak out against this practice, but turn around and behave like that in their personal lives. It's almost as if the majority of NS players are hypocrites or something right? I wonder how many skeletons current power players have in their closet that they wouldn't want to get out, I'm guessing most of them are in that position.

Interesting that there wasn't even an attempt to say I was wrong in that a huge "I'm sorry I was wrong thread" would just turn into a massive troll.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

This. They're just here for the attention they can't get anywhere else anymore; giving it to them is giving them what they want.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Whitelist? More like shite list.

There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.

Shhh, if we're quiet then they might go ahead and make the list for us.

[Lord Dominator]

Whitelist? More like shite list.

There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.

Shhh, if we're quiet then they might go ahead and make the list for us.

[The Church of Satan]

Your telegram, Twins, neglected to mention the seriousness of the awful things blacklisted players have done. I know it's very convenient for you, because if they knew, all those players that expressed support would turn on you immediately. You've done a good job of reeling them in with a lie, an illusion that you sell to them while pointing the gun at every decent region in NationStates.

[WayNeacTia]

Your telegram, Twins, neglected to mention the seriousness of the awful things blacklisted players have done. I know it's very convenient for you, because if they knew, all those players that expressed support would turn on you immediately. You've done a good job of reeling them in with a lie, an illusion that you sell to them while pointing the gun at every decent region in NationStates.

One word. Predator. Now it is true certain players on that list have redeemed themselves and are very welcome member of the community i.e. Vandoosa, but they didn't make a big song and dance about it. Their actions redeemed them, not a bunch of empty words on a forum. Keep that in mind Twin.

[Custadia]

One word. Predator.

It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.

[General Knot]

Hello old friend(s). You ought to consider stepping away for good. It'll be for the best.

[Wabbitslayah]

One word. Predator.

It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.

This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.

[WayNeacTia]

It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.

This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.

Afraid I don't keep up with offsite and discord drama. I try to contain my Nationstates dealings to the actual game.

[Lord Dominator]

This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.

Afraid I don't keep up with offsite and discord drama. I try to contain my Nationstates dealings to the actual game.

Probably a good decision

[Tinhampton]

OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support

And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!

[Twins of Hearts]

OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support

And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!

Just trying to get the word out.

[Kavagrad]

And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!

Just trying to get the word out.

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.

[South Reinkalistan]

OOC: Sending lots of telegrams regarding your campaign not many people care about isn't the best way to get your point across FYI

[Twins of Hearts]

Just trying to get the word out.

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.

I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

[Makdon]

I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

Not sure what problems you're solving

[Entendre Cordial]

From my understanding of the reasons why blacklisted players are blacklisted, treating it as fodder for "conflict resolution" between two good-faith parties is... well, let's return to the "this is just like prison!!!!!1!!11!!1" analogy for a second. Treating it as an opportunity for conflict resolution is like asking a rape victim to attend conflict resolution counseling with his or her rapist. The kindest thing you can say about it is that it's astonishingly tone-deaf and naive. More accurate assessments are also much harsher.

Also, stop spamming my WA's telegrams.

[The Church of Satan]

See? Cordial here understands it perfectly.

[Kavagrad]

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.

I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.

[Twins of Hearts]

From my understanding of the reasons why blacklisted players are blacklisted, treating it as fodder for "conflict resolution" between two good-faith parties is... well, let's return to the "this is just like prison!!!!!1!!11!!1" analogy for a second. Treating it as an opportunity for conflict resolution is like asking a rape victim to attend conflict resolution counseling with his or her rapist. The kindest thing you can say about it is that it's astonishingly tone-deaf and naive. More accurate assessments are also much harsher.

Also, stop spamming my WA's telegrams.

Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.

See? Cordial here understands it perfectly.

Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.