Wayneactia wrote:Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.
Thank you much!
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by Big Bad Badger » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:13 pm
Wayneactia wrote:Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.
by Twins of Hearts » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:51 pm
The Church of Satan wrote:Twins of Hearts wrote:The first half of your statement may make some sense. Maybe. I have not seen many "going away parties" in gameplay recently. The second half, attempting to flame me by use of micro aggressive language, is noted as a great example of what a proposal like https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449 The White List Campaign is about removing from gameplay. Toxic nastiness for the sake of being toxic and nasty. No Good. Scares away new players, and burns out "veteran" ones.
I would like to suggest a nice vacation for you, perhaps a sunnier clime shall reflect itself in your language choice? Always a pleasure though The Church of Satan.
NS is rarely a place of ceremony. Then again you see so little of its inner-workings while you're gathering dust in the corpse of Sanctum so I wouldn't expect you to understand.
Toxic nastiness is exactly why someone ends up on the blacklist. Even your endorsement of your Whitelist campaign however is a farce because you're not on the blacklist. You were just salty about losing an election and decided to spin wild conspiracies about how everyone was out to get you. It may have cost you your citizenship in TRR, but you were never blacklisted as far as I know. You can't possibly identify with your targeted demographic. Keeping dangerous players out doesn't scare away new players. Thy don't even know about it at first. And when they do know, it reassures them that their community will protect them. It also doesn't burn out veteran players. It reassures them as well. Because being able to feel safe tends to reassure people. Any instances to the contrary are as of yet, non-existent.South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.
The blacklist is reserved for the most dangerous players in NS. Players who crossed lines that shouldn't be crossed; forum destruction, sexual harassment, death threats, racism, homophobia, etc. Players who have proven themselves to be harmful to communities. Twins here (or should I call him drunkenconquerors?) is trying to convince people that players like that haven't done anything wrong. That we should all welcome them with open arms and encourage their behavior. That is what his little Whitelist campaign supports. It's not something that should be encouraged. It shouldn't even exist.
Devi wrote:South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.
The problem is that most of these people *have* been given second chances, third chances, and so on. Usually after either disappearing for a month or two and hoping everyone's forgotten about them, or after making grand claims to have reformed, only to revert to old behaviour almost immediately
While I'm not against second chances, there's a point where welcoming those people into a community does more harm than the slim chances of rehabilitation can justify
Flanderlion wrote:It's weird seeing Sedge in red rather than the well deserved blue. Glad to see him back, be it for an hour or a decade.
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Re blacklist stuff, either move on from the game, or play in your own sandbox and just act decently. Blacklist doesn't mean you're banned from the game (only moderation can do that - although a few people blacklisted should be removed from the game or even society as a whole), just that you aren't suitable to play with the rest of us.
by Makdon » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:09 pm
Twins of Hearts wrote:But no person has the authority to pass judgement, nor collective community, in this way. This is about healing on both sides, the bullying that has already hthe white list would actually contained old conflicts put to rest, not a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."
by The Church of Satan » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:35 pm
Block II wrote:I’ve more than paid my dues at this point.
Block II wrote:Actions do speak louder than words. Those who perpetuate blacklist culture are bullies and harassers.
Twins of Hearts wrote:I know you did not black list me, CoS. This is about something else(s) I am alleged to have done. The passive aggressive tone is a bit boring though. Could you maybe change it up once in awhile dude? As for "dangerous", the mods handle that. There is no one dangerous on the blacklist in an IRL sense so please cease the theatrics. No community on Nationstates can protect anything, IRL. This is why this self appointed and self governed "community" that approves of the black list is actually dangerous. This is a game, not a society.
Twins of Hearts wrote:What I am trying to convince people is that moderators are here for protection, and for help. Random nations gaming are here for entertainment, and have no authority whatsoever to determine right and wrong.
Twins of Hearts wrote:A good point. Sometimes there are square pegs and round holes, players that will forever be at odds. Using popularity as a tool to oppress, shun, and discriminate against one or the other .....is no longer cool.
Twins of Hearts wrote:Says who? A mob raised against a less popular person? Actions, just as words, viewed out of context, deliberately spun as propaganda to manipulate, to persecute without authority? If that's your idea of fun, make a region and run it like a dictator. But no person has the authority to pass judgement, nor collective community, in this way. This is about healing on both sides, the bullying that has already hthe white list would actually contained old conflicts put to rest, not a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."
Twins of Hearts wrote:Why should anyone be forced out by bullies? That's acceptable behavior now? And your statements about the game or society certainly show how pervasive and unhelpful this type of attitude is.
Twins of Hearts wrote:No one wants to spend time with this toxic game, that's why people leave. Who made it toxic is actually only relevant to site admin, all we have to do is try and change it by doing something new.
by Block II » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:50 pm
by The Notorious Mad Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:30 pm
by WayNeacTia » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:37 am
Block II wrote:I didn’t do anything.
RiderSyl wrote:You'd really think that defenders would communicate with each other about this. I know they're not a hivemind, but at least some level of PR skill would keep Quebecshire and Quebecshire from publically contradicting eac
wait
by Syberis » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:38 am
Zaolat wrote:WHO THE F*** IS SYBERIS
by Xoriet » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:11 am
by Adorable Davelands » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:03 am
Xoriet wrote:The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.
Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.
It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.
Darkesia wrote:Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.
by Twins of Hearts » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:53 am
Syberis wrote:My favorite thing about this whole mess is that a bunch of blacklisted players assume there's some sort of central database instead of just a bunch of people aware of their behavior who tell other people.
There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.
Xoriet wrote:The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.
Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.
It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.
Darkesia wrote:Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.
by Big Bad Badger » Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:29 am
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Let's say mean things about Balder!
by Block II » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:42 am
Twins of Hearts wrote:Syberis wrote:My favorite thing about this whole mess is that a bunch of blacklisted players assume there's some sort of central database instead of just a bunch of people aware of their behavior who tell other people.
There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.
No one here has said there is a central database. I think you must be confused...the White List Campaign is a campaign against bullying, shaming, and shunning. In your own words "...just a bunch of people..." have chosen to become rigid and inflexible around this issue, and they do, in an unsolicited manner, continue to gossip about player X being on "the blacklist", or "dont talk to them, they are blacklisted", or when a blacklisted player does speak openly, they are banned or ignored/shunned.
The White List Campaign (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449) clearly lays out a simple plan to end the exclusionary and negative behavior on both sides. Its not about personal belief or personal choice being invalidated. In fact, it speaks to Honoring the "negative" experience that created the blacklisting, and striving towards healing. Repeat: Both aggreived parties are the target, so that they are no longer aggrieved. The intention is to keep gameplay fun, interesting and not in the hands of a few "Gossip Kings/Queens" that, intentionally or not, misrepresent information and continues to cause great harm LONG after events have been worked out by the participants.Xoriet wrote:The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.
Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.
It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.
Xoriet, I know you are quite involved in repeating the things you learn about on the blacklist. You would be a great partner in helping us work out a solution! Using your gifts to be helpful to the White List Campaign and to nations on site would be a wonderful way to give back!
You are right about Original Nationstates being more enjoyable. Its back when the site peaked in usage, search engine searches, etc. Its when the game was never thought of as potentially dying off. It also lacked a Blacklist and..... everything was fine. Now I was around for those days, and while flame wars and griefing happened, site admin and the mods took care of it. They made rules. I was threatened with being killed many times. However, the moderation staff deleted those users, banned their IPs etc. A Blacklist truly solves nothing but to create a caste system through cult based indoctrination techniques as discussed above. I know I am above that, and I assume you are too.
This Blacklisting is a modern Nationstates creation that seemed to blossom with discord. I am focusing on its influence creep into the game of nationstates, not into private discord servers for specific regions, etc.Darkesia wrote:Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.
Darkesia is correct. Shunning will continue the Blacklist. Its also used by most major cults to disrupt families and friends, and drive a wedge to keep trapped cult members....trapped. One group famously coined the phrase "subversive individuals" in order to make shunning easier. Its just BAD. ANd it is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy, unintentional, I presume, to have those advocating for safety, as CoS did above; creating and perpetuating a broken system that actually allows other offsite abuses to occur.
Just look at the negative tone of some of the responses. The mere idea of switching up a system has so flustered those nations participating in it, that the real cost of The Blacklist is revealed: you have to trust those running it. That is why its a universal negative. Self appointed friends that ally together to promote blacklisting players who do not obey their specific and personal code of gaming is WRONG. Its bullying. And it is most certainly discriminatory.
You cannot cure "evil" with "evil", if that is what the moral justification is here. I have been told most Blacklisted players simply "go underground" make a new identity and play elsewhere on the game. Its easy enough to do. However why should anyone be bullied into sacrificing their identity? Some nations have special meaning to their players. Which victim is every told to do that? That is why we must trust our Moderators, and cease having self appointed "mobocratic" campaigns against a minority group of nations and instead focus on the correction of the difficulty between situations, or nations as The White List Campaign discusses.
Also, mildly disappointed their were no constructive ideas for enhancing The White List. As a further clarification, I am not suggesting any one person "runs" it, simply that a cooperative and caring group of nations interested in gaming to be the focus to step up and take positive action when the need arises, according to a delineated and (as universally agreed upon as possible) accepted pattern of conflict resolution.
by The Church of the Letter E » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:54 am
by Block II » Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:58 am
The Church of the Letter E wrote:In regards to the whitelist campaign, the Church of the Letter E welcomes all repenters to our holy areas! Those who wish to repent for their misdeeds are seen by the blessed letter E with great interest.
Praise all, Praise be, all hail the Letter E!
by ROM » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:38 pm
Block II wrote:As far as suggestions for how to improve or implement this whitelist campaign, perhaps we could try creating a region with the aim to rehabilitate members of our community dealing with this? Or we could have regions that already established pledge themselves to helping with the rehabilitation? Or we could even have members of our community work with someone dealing with the blacklist and sponsor them for reintegration with the rest of the community?
by South Reinkalistan » Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:02 pm
The Church of the Letter E wrote:In regards to the whitelist campaign, the Church of the Letter E welcomes all repenters to our holy areas! Those who wish to repent for their misdeeds are seen by the blessed letter E with great interest.
Praise all, Praise be, all hail the Letter E!
by Boda » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:30 pm
by Ramaeus » Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:37 pm
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