[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[Big Bad Badger]

Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.

Thank you much!

[Block II]

It does, doesn’t it? What victim wouldn’t support an effort to end his suffering so he can enjoy the game?

Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.

I’ve more than paid my dues at this point.

Actions do speak louder than words. Those who perpetuate blacklist culture are bullies and harassers.

[Twins of Hearts]

The first half of your statement may make some sense. Maybe. I have not seen many "going away parties" in gameplay recently. The second half, attempting to flame me by use of micro aggressive language, is noted as a great example of what a proposal like https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449 The White List Campaign is about removing from gameplay. Toxic nastiness for the sake of being toxic and nasty. No Good. Scares away new players, and burns out "veteran" ones.

I would like to suggest a nice vacation for you, perhaps a sunnier clime shall reflect itself in your language choice? Always a pleasure though The Church of Satan.

NS is rarely a place of ceremony. Then again you see so little of its inner-workings while you're gathering dust in the corpse of Sanctum so I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Toxic nastiness is exactly why someone ends up on the blacklist. Even your endorsement of your Whitelist campaign however is a farce because you're not on the blacklist. You were just salty about losing an election and decided to spin wild conspiracies about how everyone was out to get you. It may have cost you your citizenship in TRR, but you were never blacklisted as far as I know. You can't possibly identify with your targeted demographic. Keeping dangerous players out doesn't scare away new players. Thy don't even know about it at first. And when they do know, it reassures them that their community will protect them. It also doesn't burn out veteran players. It reassures them as well. Because being able to feel safe tends to reassure people. Any instances to the contrary are as of yet, non-existent.

OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.

The blacklist is reserved for the most dangerous players in NS. Players who crossed lines that shouldn't be crossed; forum destruction, sexual harassment, death threats, racism, homophobia, etc. Players who have proven themselves to be harmful to communities. Twins here (or should I call him drunkenconquerors?) is trying to convince people that players like that haven't done anything wrong. That we should all welcome them with open arms and encourage their behavior. That is what his little Whitelist campaign supports. It's not something that should be encouraged. It shouldn't even exist.

I know you did not black list me, CoS. This is about something else(s) I am alleged to have done. The passive aggressive tone is a bit boring though. Could you maybe change it up once in awhile dude? As for "dangerous", the mods handle that. There is no one dangerous on the blacklist in an IRL sense so please cease the theatrics. No community on Nationstates can protect anything, IRL. This is why this self appointed and self governed "community" that approves of the black list is actually dangerous. This is a game, not a society.

What I am trying to convince people is that moderators are here for protection, and for help. Random nations gaming are here for entertainment, and have no authority whatsoever to determine right and wrong.

OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.

The problem is that most of these people *have* been given second chances, third chances, and so on. Usually after either disappearing for a month or two and hoping everyone's forgotten about them, or after making grand claims to have reformed, only to revert to old behaviour almost immediately
While I'm not against second chances, there's a point where welcoming those people into a community does more harm than the slim chances of rehabilitation can justify

A good point. Sometimes there are square pegs and round holes, players that will forever be at odds. Using popularity as a tool to oppress, shun, and discriminate against one or the other .....is no longer cool.

It does, doesn’t it? What victim wouldn’t support an effort to end his suffering so he can enjoy the game?

Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.

Says who? A mob raised against a less popular person? Actions, just as words, viewed out of context, deliberately spun as propaganda to manipulate, to persecute without authority? If that's your idea of fun, make a region and run it like a dictator. But no person has the authority to pass judgement, nor collective community, in this way. This is about healing on both sides, the bullying that has already hthe white list would actually contained old conflicts put to rest, not a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."

It's weird seeing Sedge in red rather than the well deserved blue. Glad to see him back, be it for an hour or a decade.

--

Re blacklist stuff, either move on from the game, or play in your own sandbox and just act decently. Blacklist doesn't mean you're banned from the game (only moderation can do that - although a few people blacklisted should be removed from the game or even society as a whole), just that you aren't suitable to play with the rest of us.

Why should anyone be forced out by bullies? That's acceptable behavior now? And your statements about the game or society certainly show how pervasive and unhelpful this type of attitude is.

Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.

Thank you much!

Et. al. I mean, this is rather circular at this point. You are welcome to disagree, but all blacklist bullying will accomplish is an ever more negative, controlling "community" that will continue to lose members. No one wants to spend time with this toxic game, that's why people leave. Who made it toxic is actually only relevant to site admin, all we have to do is try and change it by doing something new. That's what the White List Campaign is.


And I have spent too much time explaining a very straightforward concept, so enjoy your evening. I hope some more constructive commentary might be en route.

[Makdon]

But no person has the authority to pass judgement, nor collective community, in this way. This is about healing on both sides, the bullying that has already hthe white list would actually contained old conflicts put to rest, not a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."

What bs is this? "no person has the authority to pass judgement" That's the argument you want to make? That no one can ever really be right or something equally dumb? Sure seems like that's what you're say from "a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."" If a community decides that a member of it has done actions that are completely unacceptable, they have every right to remove that person from the community.

[The Church of Satan]

I’ve more than paid my dues at this point.

You attempted to permanently destroy part of a community. Its history. Its culture. Your dues can never be paid. You made the decision to do what you did and now you must live with it. You must live with the consequences of it. There is no shortcut nor is there a way out.

Actions do speak louder than words. Those who perpetuate blacklist culture are bullies and harassers.

No. Those who perpetuate the blacklist are good, decent people that won't stand for unforgivable behavior and actions. Those on the blacklist are the bullies and harassers.

I know you did not black list me, CoS. This is about something else(s) I am alleged to have done. The passive aggressive tone is a bit boring though. Could you maybe change it up once in awhile dude? As for "dangerous", the mods handle that. There is no one dangerous on the blacklist in an IRL sense so please cease the theatrics. No community on Nationstates can protect anything, IRL. This is why this self appointed and self governed "community" that approves of the black list is actually dangerous. This is a game, not a society.

Passive aggressive? Careful, you're starting to sound like Govindia. The mods have no authority outside of this website. That is why it is necessary for the GP community to police itself on the offsite platforms where the mods can do nothing. We cannot be a lawless band of players willingly subjecting ourselves to poor and destructive behavior. We will not subject ourselves to that! If you're so against it however I'm sure the most toxic and destructive players of NS would be more than happy to repeat their poor behavior at you. Then again even you are undeserving of such horrible and disgusting acts of hate.

What I am trying to convince people is that moderators are here for protection, and for help. Random nations gaming are here for entertainment, and have no authority whatsoever to determine right and wrong.

That's where you're wrong. While the mods are here on the website to protect us, the players of our respective communities have every right to protect themselves from dangerous players. We have every right to protect and prevent sexual harassment, racism and such because they have real life consequences on the victims of that hate and danger.

A good point. Sometimes there are square pegs and round holes, players that will forever be at odds. Using popularity as a tool to oppress, shun, and discriminate against one or the other .....is no longer cool.

Popularity has nothing to do with it. Do you really think I of all people am popular? I have more than my fair share of critics. If I had cared about what the fanatical christian bigots that telegram me from time to time have to say about me, I'd probably have taken their advice and killed myself years ago. Acts like that are exactly why the blacklist needs to exist.

Says who? A mob raised against a less popular person? Actions, just as words, viewed out of context, deliberately spun as propaganda to manipulate, to persecute without authority? If that's your idea of fun, make a region and run it like a dictator. But no person has the authority to pass judgement, nor collective community, in this way. This is about healing on both sides, the bullying that has already hthe white list would actually contained old conflicts put to rest, not a blacklist containing arbitrarily "bad people."

It's not a mob and again it's not about popularity. The proof of their guilt isn't twisted to fit an agenda. The proof is there in black and white with no alternative interpretation. It's not fun either. It's anything but! It's terrible and hurtful to their victims. We have authority over ourselves. We have authority over our communities. We decided that our communities need to be protected. They need to be safe. They deserve to be safe. Those on the blacklist aren't arbitrary bad people. They are just bad people. They proved it when they did very bad things. Things that can't be taken back or forgotten. Things that hurt people and communities.

Why should anyone be forced out by bullies? That's acceptable behavior now? And your statements about the game or society certainly show how pervasive and unhelpful this type of attitude is.

They aren't bullies. They're forum administrators. Discord mods. Pillars of communities. They stood up and did the right thing.

No one wants to spend time with this toxic game, that's why people leave. Who made it toxic is actually only relevant to site admin, all we have to do is try and change it by doing something new.

If nobody wanted to be here this site would be empty. But there are thousands of people here. Those who make this game toxic are relevant to everyone that frequents the site. Because it affects all of us. If you think getting rid of hateful people and sexual predators is the wrong way to go about it then I am truly terrified of your vision.

[Block II]

Contrary to what you believe to be factually correct, CoS, I have paid my dues to that community. That community forgave me and welcomed me back with open arms. As far as destroying history, no history was destroyed. I took down a forum that I owned that wasn’t being used and it hadn’t been used for anything more than a few spam games. But I digress. I was forgiven, I was welcomed back, I paid my dues 10 years ago. It’s everyone else, third party people, that perpetuate this blacklist culture of harassment and bullying that had nothing to do with it, that are in the wrong here. And those are THE FACTS.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I mean there's also those other things you did that I really wish Moderation would let us discuss on this forum. But alas, we can't.

[Block II]

I didn’t do anything.

[WayNeacTia]

I didn’t do anything.

I suppose we can agree to disagree on that.

[Block II]

We could, but you’d be wrong.

[Syberis]

My favorite thing about this whole mess is that a bunch of blacklisted players assume there's some sort of central database instead of just a bunch of people aware of their behavior who tell other people.

There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.

[Xoriet]

The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.

Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.

It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.

[Darkesia]

Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.

[Block II]

Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.

That doesn’t work.

[Adorable Davelands]

The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.

Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.

It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.

Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.

Very good points both of you!

[Twins of Hearts]

My favorite thing about this whole mess is that a bunch of blacklisted players assume there's some sort of central database instead of just a bunch of people aware of their behavior who tell other people.

There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.

No one here has said there is a central database. I think you must be confused...the White List Campaign is a campaign against bullying, shaming, and shunning. In your own words "...just a bunch of people..." have chosen to become rigid and inflexible around this issue, and they do, in an unsolicited manner, continue to gossip about player X being on "the blacklist", or "dont talk to them, they are blacklisted", or when a blacklisted player does speak openly, they are banned or ignored/shunned.

The White List Campaign (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449) clearly lays out a simple plan to end the exclusionary and negative behavior on both sides. Its not about personal belief or personal choice being invalidated. In fact, it speaks to Honoring the "negative" experience that created the blacklisting, and striving towards healing. Repeat: Both aggreived parties are the target, so that they are no longer aggrieved. The intention is to keep gameplay fun, interesting and not in the hands of a few "Gossip Kings/Queens" that, intentionally or not, misrepresent information and continues to cause great harm LONG after events have been worked out by the participants.

The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.

Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.

It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.

Xoriet, I know you are quite involved in repeating the things you learn about on the blacklist. You would be a great partner in helping us work out a solution! Using your gifts to be helpful to the White List Campaign and to nations on site would be a wonderful way to give back!

You are right about Original Nationstates being more enjoyable. Its back when the site peaked in usage, search engine searches, etc. Its when the game was never thought of as potentially dying off. It also lacked a Blacklist and..... everything was fine. Now I was around for those days, and while flame wars and griefing happened, site admin and the mods took care of it. They made rules. I was threatened with being killed many times. However, the moderation staff deleted those users, banned their IPs etc. A Blacklist truly solves nothing but to create a caste system through cult based indoctrination techniques as discussed above. I know I am above that, and I assume you are too.

This Blacklisting is a modern Nationstates creation that seemed to blossom with discord. I am focusing on its influence creep into the game of nationstates, not into private discord servers for specific regions, etc.

Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.

Darkesia is correct. Shunning will continue the Blacklist. Its also used by most major cults to disrupt families and friends, and drive a wedge to keep trapped cult members....trapped. One group famously coined the phrase "subversive individuals" in order to make shunning easier. Its just BAD. ANd it is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy, unintentional, I presume, to have those advocating for safety, as CoS did above; creating and perpetuating a broken system that actually allows other offsite abuses to occur.

Just look at the negative tone of some of the responses. The mere idea of switching up a system has so flustered those nations participating in it, that the real cost of The Blacklist is revealed: you have to trust those running it. That is why its a universal negative. Self appointed friends that ally together to promote blacklisting players who do not obey their specific and personal code of gaming is WRONG. Its bullying. And it is most certainly discriminatory.

You cannot cure "evil" with "evil", if that is what the moral justification is here. I have been told most Blacklisted players simply "go underground" make a new identity and play elsewhere on the game. Its easy enough to do. However why should anyone be bullied into sacrificing their identity? Some nations have special meaning to their players. Which victim is every told to do that? That is why we must trust our Moderators, and cease having self appointed "mobocratic" campaigns against a minority group of nations and instead focus on the correction of the difficulty between situations, or nations as The White List Campaign discusses.

Also, mildly disappointed their were no constructive ideas for enhancing The White List. As a further clarification, I am not suggesting any one person "runs" it, simply that a cooperative and caring group of nations interested in gaming to be the focus to step up and take positive action when the need arises, according to a delineated and (as universally agreed upon as possible) accepted pattern of conflict resolution.

[Big Bad Badger]

Let's say mean things about Balder!

Balder is pretty cool. Although I haven't heard any happenings there lately. NES seems to have awakened a good vibe in the community.

[Block II]

My favorite thing about this whole mess is that a bunch of blacklisted players assume there's some sort of central database instead of just a bunch of people aware of their behavior who tell other people.

There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.

No one here has said there is a central database. I think you must be confused...the White List Campaign is a campaign against bullying, shaming, and shunning. In your own words "...just a bunch of people..." have chosen to become rigid and inflexible around this issue, and they do, in an unsolicited manner, continue to gossip about player X being on "the blacklist", or "dont talk to them, they are blacklisted", or when a blacklisted player does speak openly, they are banned or ignored/shunned.

The White List Campaign (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449) clearly lays out a simple plan to end the exclusionary and negative behavior on both sides. Its not about personal belief or personal choice being invalidated. In fact, it speaks to Honoring the "negative" experience that created the blacklisting, and striving towards healing. Repeat: Both aggreived parties are the target, so that they are no longer aggrieved. The intention is to keep gameplay fun, interesting and not in the hands of a few "Gossip Kings/Queens" that, intentionally or not, misrepresent information and continues to cause great harm LONG after events have been worked out by the participants.

The blacklisted player riots going on and denial of ever doing anything wrong are really getting old. Or maybe they just never had time to get old because they were fruitless and annoying from the start.

Maybe certain people should have thought about their long-term future as accepted members of the community before they started engaging in sketchy and questionable behavior. Just because old NS was basically the Wild West for their kind doesn't mean the same standards apply in today's society.

It's not like we can stop them from playing. Just refuse to include them in our communities because they are deemed a threat to members.

Xoriet, I know you are quite involved in repeating the things you learn about on the blacklist. You would be a great partner in helping us work out a solution! Using your gifts to be helpful to the White List Campaign and to nations on site would be a wonderful way to give back!

You are right about Original Nationstates being more enjoyable. Its back when the site peaked in usage, search engine searches, etc. Its when the game was never thought of as potentially dying off. It also lacked a Blacklist and..... everything was fine. Now I was around for those days, and while flame wars and griefing happened, site admin and the mods took care of it. They made rules. I was threatened with being killed many times. However, the moderation staff deleted those users, banned their IPs etc. A Blacklist truly solves nothing but to create a caste system through cult based indoctrination techniques as discussed above. I know I am above that, and I assume you are too.

This Blacklisting is a modern Nationstates creation that seemed to blossom with discord. I am focusing on its influence creep into the game of nationstates, not into private discord servers for specific regions, etc.

Shunning only works when you refuse to engage them.
Please stop engaging them.

Darkesia is correct. Shunning will continue the Blacklist. Its also used by most major cults to disrupt families and friends, and drive a wedge to keep trapped cult members....trapped. One group famously coined the phrase "subversive individuals" in order to make shunning easier. Its just BAD. ANd it is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy, unintentional, I presume, to have those advocating for safety, as CoS did above; creating and perpetuating a broken system that actually allows other offsite abuses to occur.

Just look at the negative tone of some of the responses. The mere idea of switching up a system has so flustered those nations participating in it, that the real cost of The Blacklist is revealed: you have to trust those running it. That is why its a universal negative. Self appointed friends that ally together to promote blacklisting players who do not obey their specific and personal code of gaming is WRONG. Its bullying. And it is most certainly discriminatory.

You cannot cure "evil" with "evil", if that is what the moral justification is here. I have been told most Blacklisted players simply "go underground" make a new identity and play elsewhere on the game. Its easy enough to do. However why should anyone be bullied into sacrificing their identity? Some nations have special meaning to their players. Which victim is every told to do that? That is why we must trust our Moderators, and cease having self appointed "mobocratic" campaigns against a minority group of nations and instead focus on the correction of the difficulty between situations, or nations as The White List Campaign discusses.

Also, mildly disappointed their were no constructive ideas for enhancing The White List. As a further clarification, I am not suggesting any one person "runs" it, simply that a cooperative and caring group of nations interested in gaming to be the focus to step up and take positive action when the need arises, according to a delineated and (as universally agreed upon as possible) accepted pattern of conflict resolution.

You make very valid and factually correct points, Twins of Hearts. It’s a shame they are falling on the deaf ears of harassers and bullies. I believe they know you’re right, but don’t want to acknowledge the truth. So they hide from the truth by trying to silence you with cult like tactics such as “shunning” and “ignoring”. It’s rude, and down right despicable, really.

As far as suggestions for how to improve or implement this whitelist campaign, perhaps we could try creating a region with the aim to rehabilitate members of our community dealing with this? Or we could have regions that already established pledge themselves to helping with the rehabilitation? Or we could even have members of our community work with someone dealing with the blacklist and sponsor them for reintegration with the rest of the community?

[The Church of the Letter E]

In regards to the whitelist campaign, the Church of the Letter E welcomes all repenters to our holy areas! Those who wish to repent for their misdeeds are seen by the blessed letter E with great interest.

Praise all, Praise be, all hail the Letter E!

[Block II]

In regards to the whitelist campaign, the Church of the Letter E welcomes all repenters to our holy areas! Those who wish to repent for their misdeeds are seen by the blessed letter E with great interest.

Praise all, Praise be, all hail the Letter E!

Thank you for your support, Pope of E-ism!

[ROM]

As far as suggestions for how to improve or implement this whitelist campaign, perhaps we could try creating a region with the aim to rehabilitate members of our community dealing with this? Or we could have regions that already established pledge themselves to helping with the rehabilitation? Or we could even have members of our community work with someone dealing with the blacklist and sponsor them for reintegration with the rest of the community?

Yeah, no. Why should regions, who one of their main responsibilities is keeping their region-members safe above all else, have to take on pet projects like that in the hope that maaaybe these people - who by the way have very much deserved their inclusion on this blacklist, by the way - might decide to improve themselves? Especially when you consider that it is the people like you, Block, that keep on giving these people 2nd chance after 2nd chance, only for them to end up still being the shitty player that is deserving of being blacklisted. They have already had their chance to be included and allowed in most respectable regions on this game, but yet they have proven that, well, it is maybe not in the region's best interest to be harboring these people. So no, not a good idea. These people are blacklisted for a reason, and most of these players have been shitty for years and I highly doubt they will change any time soon.

[South Reinkalistan]

In regards to the whitelist campaign, the Church of the Letter E welcomes all repenters to our holy areas! Those who wish to repent for their misdeeds are seen by the blessed letter E with great interest.

Praise all, Praise be, all hail the Letter E!

OOC: All praise the letter E, blessed be!

Back to the whitelist, though, I'm beginning to see some of its flaws :/ But I'm still not completely sure about the blacklist. Don't get me wrong, there are definitely people who deserve to be on there, but putting that authority in the hands of the community at large... well, I know there's always the capacity for cliques to form. Nonetheless, until I can find someone who's been blatantly and unjustly blacklisted, I suppose I can softly oppose this campaign. Although it always helps to know both sides of the story

[Boda]

It is quite ironic how you claim harassment and bullying for when blacklisted players are most often harrasers and bullies.

[Ramaeus]

As it turns out, people are blacklisted because they've done rather nasty things. Not once, mind you. Repeatedly. Excluding a few bad eggs makes the game a much safer and more pleasant experience for those of us who didn't do awful things.

[Block II]

I have been unjustly blacklisted, so yes I’m being harassed and bullied.