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MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Which would be your favored candidate for the 2020 Republican Party presidential nomination?

Donald Trump
47
27%
Rocky De La Fuente
5
3%
Joe Walsh
4
2%
Bill Weld
23
13%
Bob Ely
0
No votes
Zoltan Istvan
6
3%
None of the above/other
30
17%
David Hasselhoff
58
34%
 
Total votes : 173

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Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56070
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:12 pm

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San Lumen
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Posts: 56075
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:13 pm



Nice to hear him standing up to Trump and that illegal orders would be refused on his watch.

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Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13578
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:14 pm

Gormwood wrote:

And the whole idea for detaining migrants masterminded by an alleged Jew. What a shitstorm.

Alleged? Really? :eyebrow:
The conservative, nationalistic, gun-toting Jewish Southern belle that your momma warned you about.

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Eitoan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 177
Founded: Jan 04, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Eitoan » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:21 pm

San Lumen wrote:


Nice to hear him standing up to Trump and that illegal orders would be refused on his watch.


Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?

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San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56075
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:23 pm

Eitoan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Nice to hear him standing up to Trump and that illegal orders would be refused on his watch.


Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?


There is something called international law and the rules of war. Attacking cultural sites violates that. The military is under no obligation to blindly follow a unconstitutional or illegal order.

When you say all Presidents do you mean a special case for him under US law or the world? I can't speak for the rest of the world but international law applies to all countries

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Gormwood
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Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:36 pm

Fahran wrote:
Gormwood wrote:And the whole idea for detaining migrants masterminded by an alleged Jew. What a shitstorm.

Alleged? Really? :eyebrow:

Stephen Miller is supposedly Jewish even though his own relatives called him out for the detention scheme.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
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Fahran
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Posts: 13578
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:39 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fahran wrote:Alleged? Really? :eyebrow:

Stephen Miller is supposedly Jewish even though his own relatives called him out for the detention scheme.

I do think he's Jewish. He's just a white nationalist at the same time. For reasons.
The conservative, nationalistic, gun-toting Jewish Southern belle that your momma warned you about.

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Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13578
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:39 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fahran wrote:Alleged? Really? :eyebrow:

Stephen Miller is supposedly Jewish even though his own relatives called him out for the detention scheme.

I do think he's Jewish. He's just a white nationalist at the same time. For reasons.
The conservative, nationalistic, gun-toting Jewish Southern belle that your momma warned you about.

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56070
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:39 pm

Eitoan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Nice to hear him standing up to Trump and that illegal orders would be refused on his watch.


Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?


The fact that destroying cultural sites is against the laws of war? (1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict)
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New Paine
Diplomat
 
Posts: 747
Founded: Dec 23, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby New Paine » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:40 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fahran wrote:Alleged? Really? :eyebrow:

Stephen Miller is supposedly Jewish even though his own relatives called him out for the detention scheme.


Stephen Miller is a self-loathing Jew and a tool for the alt-right, and you know what, I think he gets a jolly over being used as tool, and yes I mean in a masochistic way.
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Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13578
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:45 pm

New Paine wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Stephen Miller is supposedly Jewish even though his own relatives called him out for the detention scheme.


Stephen Miller is a self-loathing Jew and a tool for the alt-right, and you know what, I think he gets a jolly over being used as tool, and yes I mean in a masochistic way.

I really want to stop public speculation on the sexual fetishes of men two to four times my age in these threads.
The conservative, nationalistic, gun-toting Jewish Southern belle that your momma warned you about.

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Eitoan
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 177
Founded: Jan 04, 2018
Corporate Bordello

Postby Eitoan » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:24 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Eitoan wrote:
Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?


There is something called international law and the rules of war. Attacking cultural sites violates that. The military is under no obligation to blindly follow a unconstitutional or illegal order.

When you say all Presidents do you mean a special case for him under US law or the world? I can't speak for the rest of the world but international law applies to all countries


I mean a special case for him under US law.

Are the orders of other Presidents that are viewed as illegal to be ignored, or only Trump? And by what judicial authority in the United States? Are all his orders to be litigated? Those of other Presidents? Who has standing to determine this in the field? All combatants wearing the uniform of the United States? Officers only? Senior officers?

User avatar
Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 56070
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:26 pm

Eitoan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
There is something called international law and the rules of war. Attacking cultural sites violates that. The military is under no obligation to blindly follow a unconstitutional or illegal order.

When you say all Presidents do you mean a special case for him under US law or the world? I can't speak for the rest of the world but international law applies to all countries


I mean a special case for him under US law.

Are the orders of other Presidents that are viewed as illegal to be ignored, or only Trump? And by what judicial authority in the United States? Are all his orders to be litigated? Those of other Presidents? Who has standing to determine this in the field? All combatants wearing the uniform of the United States? Officers only? Senior officers?


So basically it's OK for Trump to commit war crimes because you said so.

And for the record, I direct you to the ruling in United States v. Keenan where The Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."
Last edited by Vassenor on Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
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"Have you ever had a moment online, when the need to prove someone wrong has outweighed your own self-preservation instincts?"

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Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:59 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Eitoan wrote:
Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?


There is something called international law and the rules of war. Attacking cultural sites violates that. The military is under no obligation to blindly follow a unconstitutional or illegal order.

When you say all Presidents do you mean a special case for him under US law or the world? I can't speak for the rest of the world but international law applies to all countries


No, it doesn't.
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PRO:
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-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:24 am

I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47594
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:28 am

San Lumen wrote:
Eitoan wrote:
Who determines the legality of the orders? Need all orders coming from the President undergo review? For all Presidents or only Donald Trump?


There is something called international law and the rules of war. Attacking cultural sites violates that. The military is under no obligation to blindly follow a unconstitutional or illegal order.

When you say all Presidents do you mean a special case for him under US law or the world? I can't speak for the rest of the world but international law applies to all countries


International law only applies to small countries without the power to back up whatever they do.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Loben The 2nd
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben The 2nd » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:09 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.


we're all better off that way.
no quarter.
Satisfaction guaranteed.

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Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:19 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.


And Soviet exceptionalism, and Afghani exceptionalism, and North Korean exceptionalism, and... wait, none of this works...
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:28 am

Telconi wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.


And Soviet exceptionalism, and Afghani exceptionalism, and North Korean exceptionalism, and... wait, none of this works...


US Exceptionalism is very real and tangible. Russian exceptionalism exists too, but not Afghani because you know what? They lost.

The US can commit war crimes with impunity because it's a superpower. I'm not sure why you would dispute it?
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:34 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.


we're all better off that way.


The US is better off that way, but I'm really not. I'm one of your hapless allies, who get blamed for what you do.

sometimes we get killedfor what you do

We're still your allies, but could you please be less dickish about invading places and about accidentally killing civilians? It doesn't crush their fighting spirit, it just makes them more motivated to fight dirty.
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34051
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:42 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:I will note just now that officers in the US military have taken an oath to obey the President and the US Constitution.
But not international law, Geneva convention or any such.

As to war crimes, see Exceptionalism, US.

The US is, however, bound by treaties it signs, as per its own constitution.
One of which was the Geneva Conventions.
read your own damn sources
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Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 am

As time passes I have a dimmer and dimmer view of President Obama. But it's not for the usual "didn't do enough" reason, it's for the war crime he committed.

The CIA under Obama infiltrated the compound where they knew OBL was living. They did this with a CIA agent impersonating a nurse giving vaccinations. The cover story was well supported with other nurses giving vaccinations in the area. They were fake vaccinations but that's not even the point. They got strategic information by impersonating a charitable medical organization.

The only way that's not a violation of the Geneva convention is to claim that the immunity for medical services only applies to the literal Red Cross.
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
Loben The 2nd
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben The 2nd » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:46 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:As time passes I have a dimmer and dimmer view of President Obama. But it's not for the usual "didn't do enough" reason, it's for the war crime he committed.

The CIA under Obama infiltrated the compound where they knew OBL was living. They did this with a CIA agent impersonating a nurse giving vaccinations. The cover story was well supported with other nurses giving vaccinations in the area. They were fake vaccinations but that's not even the point. They got strategic information by impersonating a charitable medical organization.

The only way that's not a violation of the Geneva convention is to claim that the immunity for medical services only applies to the literal Red Cross.


does the Geneva convention apply to terrorists?
no quarter.
Satisfaction guaranteed.

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Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:49 am

Loben The 2nd wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:As time passes I have a dimmer and dimmer view of President Obama. But it's not for the usual "didn't do enough" reason, it's for the war crime he committed.

The CIA under Obama infiltrated the compound where they knew OBL was living. They did this with a CIA agent impersonating a nurse giving vaccinations. The cover story was well supported with other nurses giving vaccinations in the area. They were fake vaccinations but that's not even the point. They got strategic information by impersonating a charitable medical organization.

The only way that's not a violation of the Geneva convention is to claim that the immunity for medical services only applies to the literal Red Cross.


does the Geneva convention apply to terrorists?


The Geveva convention applies to whoever signs it. Solemn word of oath. Supposedly the US is bound to it, though you apparently disagree?
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
Loben The 2nd
Senator
 
Posts: 4410
Founded: Apr 29, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Loben The 2nd » Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:51 am

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Loben The 2nd wrote:
does the Geneva convention apply to terrorists?


The Geveva convention applies to whoever signs it. Solemn word of oath. Supposedly the US is bound to it, though you apparently disagree?



do we have to render medical aid to terrorists?
no quarter.
Satisfaction guaranteed.

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