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[Cards] Clarification on restricted actions

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The Northern Light
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Moralistic Democracy

[Cards] Clarification on restricted actions

Postby The Northern Light » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:41 pm

Hi,

I'd like to request clarification on which of the following card-related actions are "restricted actions" for the purposes of the script rules for HTML site:
  • Opening a pack.
  • Junking a card.
  • Gifting a card.
  • Placing an ask for a card.
  • Placing a bid for a card.
  • Adding a card to a collection.
  • Removing a card from a collection.
  • Creating a collection.
  • Deleting a collection.
  • Renaming a collection.
From my reading of the definition of "restricted actions", none of the above are restricted. But, given that the rules pre-date the introduction of the cards sub-game, I thought it would be worth having clarification.

Thanks in advance!
Last edited by The Northern Light on Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Northern Light
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Northern Light » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:52 pm

After posting this thread, I remembered that opening packs has already been ruled a non-restricted action: viewtopic.php?p=35109566#p35109566

It would be good to get clarification on the rest.

Best,
TNL.
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9003
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Postby 9003 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:51 pm

Super curious on this too!
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Old Hope
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Postby Old Hope » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:24 am

Gifting a card.
Placing an ask for a card.
Placing a bid for a card.

These influence other nations, so maybe they should be restricted(My recommendation is yes).

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1 very fast endotarter
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Democratic Socialists

Postby 1 very fast endotarter » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:19 pm

Bumping this back to the first page. It'd be great if we could get a clarification.

Thanks,
TNL.

Edit: Apologies, this is the OP posting from a different puppet.
Last edited by 1 very fast endotarter on Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Siwale
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Postby Siwale » Thu Jul 11, 2019 4:33 pm

I too would greatly appreciate some clarification on this.

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The Northern Light
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Northern Light » Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:32 pm

Bringing this back to the first page. As people are starting to develop technology around the cards subgame, it would be very useful to have clarification on this.
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9003
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Postby 9003 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:47 am

I know everyone is busy and what not and I would rather not get a nation nuked for botting is there anything on this list that is for sure okay or for sure not okay?
I understand many of them are iffy and need to be discussed by the powers that be (Who are busy on countless other tasks) but knowing if there are even 1 thing that is okay or not okay would be cool!
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:34 am

To be honest, only [violet] can respond to this thread. She's apparently busy lately, so I'm going to say that for now, Old Hope had the right idea:
Old Hope wrote:
Gifting a card.
Placing an ask for a card.
Placing a bid for a card.

These influence other nations

Doing any of the others is probably fine for now. I'm wavering a bit on "Opening a pack", as I think that botting that particular action should require human input ... but under a fairly strict reading of the rules, it's probably OK.

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The Northern Light
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Postby The Northern Light » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:00 am

With the renewed activity in cards that Season 2 has brought, it would be very useful if we got clarification on this question.

Thanks,
TNL.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:47 pm

Is there a usage case for opening up any of those things to bots?

I think it's good to support third-party scripts and tools that allow card traders to operate with better information. But I don't think it's good if we have bots that effectively replace traders, by doing everything they would do, only more efficiently. It seems to me that all of the listed actions, with the possible exception of collection management, fall into the second category.

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The Northern Light
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Postby The Northern Light » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:23 pm

[violet] wrote:Is there a usage case for opening up any of those things to bots?

I think it's good to support third-party scripts and tools that allow card traders to operate with better information. But I don't think it's good if we have bots that effectively replace traders, by doing everything they would do, only more efficiently. It seems to me that all of the listed actions, with the possible exception of collection management, fall into the second category.


Here are some for which I can come up with (what I think are) good use cases:
  • Gifting a card.
A few regions are now using cards as rewards for nations that perform various actions. These can be either rewards given out as part of special one-time events (e.g., TNP recently gifted 600 cards to all nations that cured others during the latest Zombie Apocalypse), or regular rewards for nations that carry out specific actions (e.g., TNP gifts an average of three legendaries per day to nations that regularly exchange endorsements or vote in the WA).

Right now, all of these rewards need to be gifted manually by the people managing the rewards program. Speaking from personal experience, this quickly becomes very tedious. Allowing the card rewards to be automatically gifted would make managing these rewards programs a lot easier, and could potentially greatly expand their scope (e.g., making it feasible to gift a card to everyone joining the WA in your region, or something similar). In turn, this could enable even more regions develop this kind of card rewards infrastructure, and therefore encourage them to invest in the cards game.

  • Adding a card to a collection.
  • Removing a card from a collection.
  • Creating a collection.
  • Deleting a collection.
  • Renaming a collection.
There are a lot of nations that build collections ranging in the several thousands---e.g., to name just one, Refuge Isle's collections of all of a season's ultra-rare cards. I think allowing the above actions to be automated would help make their lives a tiny bit easier, without deducting from other players' experience (nobody benefits or loses from someone else's having to go through 100 pages of their own deck, to add/remove cards from a collection).

  • Placing an ask for a card.
  • Placing a bid for a card.
These two can again help with massive collections---to use the same example as above, they'd make placing bids on all 5,000 S2 ultra-rare cards, or placing asks for 1-2 stray cards that found their way in your deck without being part of your collection, a lot easier.

But, in this case, I could see many ways in which this could be abused (e.g., I'd probably have a script making sure I always have the highest bid on legendaries). Additionally, one could argue that placing asks/bids is an integral part of the process of trading and creating collections, so it should only be done manually.


Outside of the above, I think everything else would end up being used primarily to make management of enormous card farms easier, which would be a bad development for the game. I have no objection to ruling all those other actions restricted in order to prevent this from happening.

Whatever the decision, I do think it would be great if it could be stated explicitly what is restricted and what isn't, to avoid confusion and to make sure people do not end up unknowingly developing illegal scripts.
Last edited by The Northern Light on Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:29 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:14 pm

Thanks, that's helpful.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:54 pm

Okay, I have a ruling at last. Thanks for your patience.

To this point, none of the above have been considered "restricted actions" as per the HTML Script Rules, since they don't meet any of the criteria listed on that page.

But I'm about to add a line that forbids automated execution of all card-related actions, including placing bids, junking cards, and manipulating collections.

This is because cards seem to have attracted quite a lot of bot-based activity already, and it seems likely that if this were fully legalized, bot-based trading would quickly outstrip what human players can do, and take a lot of the fun out of it.

I am open to creating an API-based solution that would permit a small amount of automated execution of actions, such as has been discussed a couple of posts up, to support things like regions gifting cards. But no automated execution of card-related actions will be permitted via the HTML site. Please use the API thread to request an API as would suit you.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:39 pm

Does this mean scripts can no longer be used to create and open card packs?
Last edited by Aclion on Thu Dec 26, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Northern Light
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Northern Light » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:17 pm

Thanks for the clarification!
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Mikeswill
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Postby Mikeswill » Thu Dec 26, 2019 9:19 pm

Excellent!
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:09 pm

Aclion wrote:Does this mean scripts can no longer be used to create and open card packs?

Correct.

It was never legal for scripts to create card packs. Packs are created by answering issues, and scripts are required to use the API for that, which does not award cards.

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Mikeswill
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Postby Mikeswill » Sat Jan 04, 2020 6:04 pm

It has been suggested that I am running a script to answer issues. I would like to categorically deny that this is happening.

First off I am clueless on how to create a script (aside from the recruitment messages I run via the NationStates stamps). I have no clue as to what is HTML or API... I really don't! I do have a few puppet Nations where I answer issues quickly because I am not interested in their political development ie. I just want the card packs. I don't know how to prove my innocence. It has been suggested that I answer issues slower. I'm just taken aback at the accusation. :(
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sat Jan 04, 2020 7:03 pm

Hi Mikeswill -- I've sent a few TGs to people recently whose activity tripped some bot detection code. This isn't meant to be a public thing; it's just step one in me trying to figure out what they're doing. In many cases, the answer is simply that they're robotically clicking a lot of buttons in a way that happens look mechanical. Feel free to respond via GHR as it's not really anyone else's business.

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Recuecn
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Postby Recuecn » Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:41 pm

Not gonna lie--I wish I was good enough at farming to be on the receiving end of that particular telegram
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