Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

[Thermodolia]

Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

China is a net importer of food. It’ll literally starve to death without their western trade partners.

The west forgets that we prop up the PRC and we hold them by the balls. If we squeeze them hard the CCP would bend to any demand just to stop food riots.

[New Paine]

Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

Conscripts aren’t great fighters.

Also China is an export based economy. Meaning that if they can’t export shit they will collapse economically. The idea that it’s a losing battle is doomer bullshit.

They are only there because of US. Cease trade with, arrest any CCP members, ban any official from entering the west, nationalize/seize any Chinese businesses in the west, and ramp up sanctions on them. The Chinese government would collapse once the money runs out.

Add to that the funding and arming of any anti-CCP group and Xi and co are going to be in for a rough ride

No, it is not “doomer bullshit”, it is the fact that it will result in a shit ton of destruction and it will be devastating to the world economy. You’re acting like the PRC is going to lay down their arms. They won’t, in fact, if we go by your position, it will be World War 3. The PRC is not North Korea. They have actual influence in the World’s affairs.

[Bombadil]

Taipei and Hong Kong are at odds over a Taiwanese man who is suspected of committing a robbery in Hong Kong before fleeing back to the island nation.

The man, surnamed Lin, allegedly robbed a watch shop in Tsim Sha Tsui on October 6, making off with two watches worth HK$990,000. He was arrested in Taichung on October 11.

Taiwan’s Ministry of Justice requested legal mutual assistance and evidence from the Hong Kong authorities in order to handle the case. But the Hong Kong Security Bureau said on Saturday that there were no existing laws between Hong Kong and Taipei on legal mutual assistance and the transfer of fugitives.

The Bureau said that, if the suspect was willing to surrender himself to Hong Kong, local authorities would take him.

Taiwan’s Mainland Affairs Council (MAC) also urged Hong Kong to provide evidence: “The Taiwan side believes that a responsible government, which attaches importance to rule of law and the safety and rights of people, would not allow a suspect who was involved in serious crimes to walk freely to surrender himself without legal assistance,” it said.

Link

Note there is nothing stopping HK from making one-off provisions in agreement with Taiwan as requested by Taiwan.

No, it is not “doomer bullshit”, it is the fact that it will result in a shit ton of destruction and it will be devastating to the world economy. You’re acting like the PRC is going to lay down their arms. They won’t, in fact, if we go by your position, it will be World War 3. The PRC is not North Korea. They have actual influence in the World’s affairs.

Of course these arguments have been made before about doing nothing over a repressive authoritarian dictatorship eliminating a religious minority and suppressing civil liberties and free speech.

[New Paine]

China is a net importer of food. It’ll literally starve to death without their western trade partners.

The west forgets that we prop up the PRC and we hold them by the balls. If we squeeze them hard the CCP would bend to any demand just to stop food riots.

I think Xi is willing to let poorer people in his country starve in order to appear that he is defending China’s sovereignty...

[Saturna1ia]

The fate of Hong Kong is not tied to its own efforts and desires, and that is perhaps the saddest thing of all. The fate of Hong Kong, and Taiwan, is tied to the fate of the conflict between the United States of America and the People's Republic of China. If America continues to look inward, while China looks outward then Hong Kong will eventually be absorbed without any meaningful international effort to stop it. If America can revitalize its international standing and use that power to isolate China, while China struggles with domestic unrest then Hong Kong might have a chance to remain an independent, devolved territory. The way I personally see it going is Hong Kong, despite its best efforts, will slowly lose hope as 2047 nears. China will grow increasingly bold in incorporating Hong Kong as full-fledged province, and America will not do anything except maybe launch an initiative to accept willing Hong Kongers as refugees with expedited paths to citizenship.

[Thermodolia]

Conscripts aren’t great fighters.

Also China is an export based economy. Meaning that if they can’t export shit they will collapse economically. The idea that it’s a losing battle is doomer bullshit.

No, it is not “doomer bullshit”,

But it literally is doomer bullshit. You are acting like there’s nothing we can do so why bother? That’s a doomer attitude and that’s what’s crippling the west.

it is the fact that it will result in a shit ton of destruction and it will be devastating to the world economy.

A small price to pay for a better world. I’m sure you want to live in a world with less pollution correct? Stop China and the pollution will go down.

You’re acting like the PRC is going to lay down their arms. They won’t, in fact, if we go by your position, it will be World War 3.

So let me get this straight. You think that we start banning CCP members from the west, seizing Chinese companies in the west, halting trade and ramping up sanctions will lead to WW3?

What kind of drugs are you on? Also this is more proof that it’s nothing but doomer bullshit. You don’t want to give up your sweet ass life for a better world.

The PRC is not North Korea. They have actual influence in the World’s affairs.

That doesn’t mean we just roll over and die. That doesn’t mean that we let them walk all over us. Hell the japanese during WW2 had influence in the world, under your logic we should have just rolled over and died because the Japanese had the largest aircraft carrier navy at the time.

[Thermodolia]

The west forgets that we prop up the PRC and we hold them by the balls. If we squeeze them hard the CCP would bend to any demand just to stop food riots.

I think Xi is willing to let poorer people in his country starve in order to appear that he is defending China’s sovereignty...

Governments don’t rule over starving masses for very long.

[Neanderthaland]

Just out of curiosity, how many those waving around British Hong Kong Flags actually want Hong Kong to become a overseas territory again and how many just use it as a metaphor?

The flag of Hong Kong represents a government that’s lost its legitimacy in the eyes of its people and a symbol of unity with the mainland that isn’t wanted. The flag of British Hong Kong isn’t a symbol of British rule anymore to those flying it, its more of a symbol of separateness.

This, pretty much.

Although it would be nice to see Britain doing more to protect the rights of their former subjects. It feels like they really should be leading the global outcry. But, of course, they're too busy with their own ineffectual separation from the mainland.

[Neanderthaland]

I think Xi is willing to let poorer people in his country starve in order to appear that he is defending China’s sovereignty...

Governments don’t rule over starving masses for very long.

Communist governments do.

[Nakena]

Governments don’t rule over starving masses for very long.

Communist governments do.

Maduro still keeps going strong despite theres already severe malnutrition amongst some of his subjects.

[New Paine]

No, it is not “doomer bullshit”,

But it literally is doomer bullshit. You are acting like there’s nothing we can do so why bother? That’s a doomer attitude and that’s what’s crippling the west.

it is the fact that it will result in a shit ton of destruction and it will be devastating to the world economy.

A small price to pay for a better world. I’m sure you want to live in a world with less pollution correct? Stop China and the pollution will go down.

You’re acting like the PRC is going to lay down their arms. They won’t, in fact, if we go by your position, it will be World War 3.

So let me get this straight. You think that we start banning CCP members from the west, seizing Chinese companies in the west, halting trade and ramping up sanctions will lead to WW3?

What kind of drugs are you on? Also this is more proof that it’s nothing but doomer bullshit. You don’t want to give up your sweet ass life for a better world.

The PRC is not North Korea. They have actual influence in the World’s affairs.

That doesn’t mean we just roll over and die. That doesn’t mean that we let them walk all over us. Hell the japanese during WW2 had influence in the world, under your logic we should have just rolled over and died because the Japanese had the largest aircraft carrier navy at the time.

Okay, that was a word salad. Let me try to address this as coherently as possible. I’m not going to argue if my position is “doomer” because that is just semantics. Halting trade? China is our largest trading partner, Implementing the type of sanctions and protectionist polices would be Absolutely devastating to our economy and would lead to no less than a moderate to severe recession. And I don’t agree that massive destruction is a “small price to pay” for what you believe is a “better world”. Comparing the PRC to imperial Japan is....a reach. China did not bomb Pearl Harbor, and far as I know have not invaded any foreign nations. Now, you one could compare what Japan did in ww2 and what China is doing to the Uighurs, but that is even a stretch.

The only thing we can do is pass symbolic legislation and strong worded condemnation.

[Infected Mushroom]

For the first time in many months there is a marked reduction in street protests, rioting, and overall destruction both as observed and reported in the news. Transportation disruption seems to have ended since Polyu (during which the police managed to arrest many of the most violent protestors).

As someone who has lived at the forefront of the destruction, I can see that everything is being rebuilt. The traffic lights, the coffee shops, the small businesses, the roads themselves, the stations. The city is still being protected by the 30,000-31,000 strong police force. In time, Hong Kong can be restored from the considerable destruction.

I do believe this crisis has been a true test for the Hong Kong people; it has been a very trying time for everyone. However, the city remains one of industry and perseverance. The economy and way of life in Hong Kong is still intact and I for one, am hoping for a very peaceful, happy, and blissful Christmas and New Year here in Hong Kong. Hopefully there will be no more street violence and the people can be safe and productive.

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city but for the first time in many months, I have hope.

[New Paine]

Communist governments do.

Maduro still keeps going strong despite theres already severe malnutrition amongst some of his subjects.

Yep, and let us not forget inflation. Also, the citizens of mainland China appear to be either indifferent or supportive of Xi

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

How to move old posts here as quotes ?




Also China’s power is based around influence. Influence in the economic realm. That influence wa given to them by people looking to make a buck. (Super corps, cheap labour) and it can be taken away from them.

China is in no respect self sufficient.

Not in oil, rdources or food. I fact, most of their economy is input output for manufacturing.


If a war were to break out between the United stated and China. China’s economy would be crippled.
And in reality USA would not be alone. In reality, India’s army matches chinas, and Japan’s navy matches chinas. Add the us support and China can’t do anything, even spfully supplied.

Also, China is not MADA capable. They are not capable of ending the world. They have like 270 nukes (prob inflated numbers) and much smaller cashe of long range delivery systems. In return, they would be anhilated. Besides, the top brass, as an autocratic country, don’t care for the country but for themselves, and wouldent want to end up irradiated or in the hauge.

So militarily China is trapped. They won’t start anything.P unless they think they can get away with it (Hong Kong).

The best way to deal with them is for the world to move on from them economically. If you cut off their oil supply, they might listen then. ..

[New Paine]

For the first time in many months there is a marked reduction in street protests, rioting, and overall destruction both as observed and reported in the news. Transportation disruption seems to have ended since Polyu (during which the police managed to arrest many of the most violent protestors).

As someone who has lived at the forefront of the destruction, I can see that everything is being rebuilt. The traffic lights, the coffee shops, the small businesses, the roads themselves, the stations. The city is still being protected by the 30,000-31,000 strong police force. In time, Hong Kong can be restored from the considerable destruction.

I do believe this crisis has been a true test for the Hong Kong people; it has been a very trying time for everyone. However, the city remains one of industry and perseverance. The economy and way of life in Hong Kong is still intact and I for one, am hoping for a very peaceful, happy, and blissful Christmas and New Year here in Hong Kong. Hopefully there will be no more street violence and the people can be safe and productive.

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city but for the first time in many months, I have hope.

Stay safe.

[Bombadil]

Okay, that was a word salad. Let me try to address this as coherently as possible. I’m not going to argue if my position is “doomer” because that is just semantics. Halting trade? China is our largest trading partner, Implementing the type of sanctions and protectionist polices would be Absolutely devastating to our economy and would lead to no less than a moderate to severe recession. And I don’t agree that massive destruction is a “small price to pay” for what you believe is a “better world”. Comparing the PRC to imperial Japan is....a reach. China did not bomb Pearl Harbor, and far as I know have not invaded any foreign nations. Now, you one could compare what Japan did in ww2 and what China is doing to the Uighurs, but that is even a stretch.

The only thing we can do is pass symbolic legislation and strong worded condemnation.

Democracy and authoritarianism cannot co-exist over time. Either you accept the mathematics of growing China power and population and consequent authoritarian dominance over the globe or you take a stand now, because time is running out. Sanctions and pressure can work now but not for long.

China, Xi Jinping himself, has noted the goal is to take Taiwan next, by force if necessary.

This is really little different to 1938.

Either we care about a little country far far away about which we know little or we take a stand.

HK is honestly the line in the sand that cannot be crossed if you don't want a 21st century dominated by an authoritarian dictatorship. Take a look at the Belt & Road map and note how very isolated Western Europe and North America is.

I'm not stating any supremacy for those places, merely the predominance of democracy, civil liberties and free speech.

That's the choice, amplified by the power of intrusive technology to make resistance impossible.

[Infected Mushroom]

For the first time in many months there is a marked reduction in street protests, rioting, and overall destruction both as observed and reported in the news. Transportation disruption seems to have ended since Polyu (during which the police managed to arrest many of the most violent protestors).

As someone who has lived at the forefront of the destruction, I can see that everything is being rebuilt. The traffic lights, the coffee shops, the small businesses, the roads themselves, the stations. The city is still being protected by the 30,000-31,000 strong police force. In time, Hong Kong can be restored from the considerable destruction.

I do believe this crisis has been a true test for the Hong Kong people; it has been a very trying time for everyone. However, the city remains one of industry and perseverance. The economy and way of life in Hong Kong is still intact and I for one, am hoping for a very peaceful, happy, and blissful Christmas and New Year here in Hong Kong. Hopefully there will be no more street violence and the people can be safe and productive.

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city but for the first time in many months, I have hope.

Stay safe.

Thank you!

[Ayissor]

Governments don’t rule over starving masses for very long.

Communist governments do.

Not when there is a billion starving city dwellers, peasants are easy to put fear into, but when you have cities starving it's much harder to do.

[Thermodolia]

But it literally is doomer bullshit. You are acting like there’s nothing we can do so why bother? That’s a doomer attitude and that’s what’s crippling the west.


A small price to pay for a better world. I’m sure you want to live in a world with less pollution correct? Stop China and the pollution will go down.


So let me get this straight. You think that we start banning CCP members from the west, seizing Chinese companies in the west, halting trade and ramping up sanctions will lead to WW3?

What kind of drugs are you on? Also this is more proof that it’s nothing but doomer bullshit. You don’t want to give up your sweet ass life for a better world.


That doesn’t mean we just roll over and die. That doesn’t mean that we let them walk all over us. Hell the japanese during WW2 had influence in the world, under your logic we should have just rolled over and died because the Japanese had the largest aircraft carrier navy at the time.

Okay, that was a word salad.

Hardly a word salad. You just can’t handle getting called out on being a doomer.

Let me try to address this as coherently as possible. I’m not going to argue if my position is “doomer” because that is just semantics.

It’s not semantics it’s a fact.

Halting trade? China is our largest trading partner, Implementing the type of sanctions and protectionist polices would be Absolutely devastating to our economy and would lead to no less than a moderate to severe recession.

Which would be a small price to pay for the total economic collapse of China. We import more than we export to China. If we halted trade China would collapse while we would just end up with a recession that we could and would bounce back from stronger and more powerful.

You don’t want to do that because that means tighter belts and that would cut into your cushy lifestyle.

And I don’t agree that massive destruction is a “small price to pay” for what you believe is a “better world”. Comparing the PRC to imperial Japan is....a reach. China did not bomb Pearl Harbor, and far as I know have not invaded any foreign nations.

Tibet and Vietnam would both like a word with you. Also it’s not a reach. We are in a Cold War with China weather you like it or not. And right now you definitely seem like the type who would have willingly give up the Cold War in the 50’s.

Now, you one could compare what Japan did in ww2 and what China is doing to the Uighurs, but that is even a stretch.

No it’s not. Genocide is genocide no matter how you slice it

The only thing we can do is pass symbolic legislation and strong worded condemnation.

Bull fucking shit. You don’t want to do anything else because that would mean less money for gaming. You don’t want to hurt your cushy lifestyle. But that doesn’t mean we need to roll over and die and let the CCP walk all over us.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

The JELLEAIN Republic wrote:


Weather it be true or not.


To them the officers represent the corruptness of their own government, the influence of China,
And the autocratic blanket that has been laid over them.

——————————————. Infected mushroom
The United Nations recognizes the flag of China as the flag of all Chinese people. I hope your not suggesting the protestors do not know the objective meaning of their own government’s flag?
——————-


Well that’s a lot of random to unpack...

First of all, the United Nations recognizing the autocratic dystopian (semi communist) regime, over the free and democratic Twain is deeply flawed. (And economically cowardly).

Second of all I was under the impression that the flag being vandalized was that of Hong Kong, not China.
But if anything, that makes it better.
China is the main source of their recent oppression, and thankfully they have had the opportunity to engage in free speech, presenting to them the horror that is the current mainland Chinese government. So they are fully aware of China’s actions and not completely monopolized by Chinese propaganda.

I am suggesting that they know completely what the Chinese flag represents. (Or even Hong Kong).

It represents the tyranny they are now fighting agents.


I hope you don’t think that the above mentioned flag auctaly represents anyone more than a tight knit circle of oligarchs.

[Heloin]

For the first time in many months there is a marked reduction in street protests, rioting, and overall destruction both as observed and reported in the news. Transportation disruption seems to have ended since Polyu (during which the police managed to arrest many of the most violent protestors).

As someone who has lived at the forefront of the destruction, I can see that everything is being rebuilt. The traffic lights, the coffee shops, the small businesses, the roads themselves, the stations. The city is still being protected by the 30,000-31,000 strong police force. In time, Hong Kong can be restored from the considerable destruction.

I do believe this crisis has been a true test for the Hong Kong people; it has been a very trying time for everyone. However, the city remains one of industry and perseverance. The economy and way of life in Hong Kong is still intact and I for one, am hoping for a very peaceful, happy, and blissful Christmas and New Year here in Hong Kong. Hopefully there will be no more street violence and the people can be safe and productive.

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city but for the first time in many months, I have hope.

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

China right now can be compared to nazi Germany or the Soviet Union.

Also we can easily move our stuff to other countries.
Like India, and places in Africa, or even robot factories, (science manufacturing is the Maine thing China provides.)

Also, China is super dependent on globisation. Cut them off and the will collapse. The USA on the other hand, is much more self reliant than most modern developed nations economies.


We’ll be fine, and the world the better for it.

[Pasong Tirad]

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city

A legislature and executive elected by universal suffrage and a city state whose autonomy is respected can help restore order and investor confidence.

[New Paine]

Okay, that was a word salad.

Hardly a word salad. You just can’t handle getting called out on being a doomer.

Let me try to address this as coherently as possible. I’m not going to argue if my position is “doomer” because that is just semantics.

It’s not semantics it’s a fact.

Halting trade? China is our largest trading partner, Implementing the type of sanctions and protectionist polices would be Absolutely devastating to our economy and would lead to no less than a moderate to severe recession.

Which would be a small price to pay for the total economic collapse of China. We import more than we export to China. If we halted trade China would collapse while we would just end up with a recession that we could and would bounce back from stronger and more powerful.

You don’t want to do that because that means tighter belts and that would cut into your cushy lifestyle.

And I don’t agree that massive destruction is a “small price to pay” for what you believe is a “better world”. Comparing the PRC to imperial Japan is....a reach. China did not bomb Pearl Harbor, and far as I know have not invaded any foreign nations.

Tibet and Vietnam would both like a word with you. Also it’s not a reach. We are in a Cold War with China weather you like it or not. And right now you definitely seem like the type who would have willingly give up the Cold War in the 50’s.

Now, you one could compare what Japan did in ww2 and what China is doing to the Uighurs, but that is even a stretch.

No it’s not. Genocide is genocide no matter how you slice it

The only thing we can do is pass symbolic legislation and strong worded condemnation.

Bull fucking shit. You don’t want to do anything else because that would mean less money for gaming. You don’t want to hurt your cushy lifestyle. But that doesn’t mean we need to roll over and die and let the CCP walk all over us.

China is not invading nations and setting up satellite states, so comparing it to the USSR is silly. No, if we cut of our largest trading partner, we won’t “bounce back stronger than ever”. It will take years to even recover even slightly and when we do, we will be weaker than ever. You’re acting like China has very little influence, weak military, and weak economy, which is untrue.

And by the way, you may believe you sound more intelligent By acting like a smug asshole, but it does really doesn’t.

[Infected Mushroom]

For the first time in many months there is a marked reduction in street protests, rioting, and overall destruction both as observed and reported in the news. Transportation disruption seems to have ended since Polyu (during which the police managed to arrest many of the most violent protestors).

As someone who has lived at the forefront of the destruction, I can see that everything is being rebuilt. The traffic lights, the coffee shops, the small businesses, the roads themselves, the stations. The city is still being protected by the 30,000-31,000 strong police force. In time, Hong Kong can be restored from the considerable destruction.

I do believe this crisis has been a true test for the Hong Kong people; it has been a very trying time for everyone. However, the city remains one of industry and perseverance. The economy and way of life in Hong Kong is still intact and I for one, am hoping for a very peaceful, happy, and blissful Christmas and New Year here in Hong Kong. Hopefully there will be no more street violence and the people can be safe and productive.

I understand there are many challenges ahead including how to restore order in the city and restore investor confidence in the city but for the first time in many months, I have hope.

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.