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LWDT 8: Hitting the Marx

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Under which leaders (if any) was the Soviet Union socialist?

Lenin (1918-1924)
411
34%
Stalin (1924-1953)
223
19%
Khrushchev (1953-1964)
149
12%
Brezhnev (1964-1982)
125
10%
Gorbachev (1985-1991)
126
10%
Never
167
14%
 
Total votes : 1201

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Communal concils
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Postby Communal concils » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:44 pm

Kubra wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

1. I think it would be best if companies leave the nation. I have no reason as a socialist to really benefit the hoarders of capital.

2. However, waiting to solve problems is not really something we should embrace. what matter is now. There will be poverty and societal ills regardless of immigration policy, but that does not mean that it doesn't matter. Flooding a nation with proletarians would force all of them into being urban lumpens that live in slums are similar situations. it would also cause antagonisms with different demographics. So, I feel like such a thing would speed up the rise of fascism and it would intersect with policies like gentrification.
And here's the problem.

When I said "abolish the wage system" I said so tongue-in-cheek. I mean, that really is my preferred solution, honest to god, but y'know when we use revolution as a deus ex machina we really do trivialise the whole thing.
As it stands, they're gonna live an immiserated existence, at here or abroad, and *so will we*. Net negative, man.
As always, Saint Marx guides my hand. Most of what I have said has its origins in Marx discussing the very phenomena we are, in relation to Irish labour being sent en masse to England for more or less the same reasons, merely updating for the fact that eventually the irish just become normal ol' proles, indistinguishable from the lot.
Immigration scares come and go, man. They do so for, well, pretty much the same reasons. Like nearly all the time.



1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.
Woke Leftist: Anti-Liberal Leftist

List of liberal or semi-liberal ideologies to avoid: "Left"-communism, trotskyism, Intersectionalism, anarchism,classical liberal, social liberalism and economic liberalism( conservatives are addicted to this)

Become anti-woke, and free yourself from the lies of mainstream corporate consumerist media.you should also become an anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist. Embrace socialism( the command economy is better.)
NOTE: Make Cultural Marxism a Real Thing !

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:51 pm

Communal concils wrote:
Kubra wrote: And here's the problem.

When I said "abolish the wage system" I said so tongue-in-cheek. I mean, that really is my preferred solution, honest to god, but y'know when we use revolution as a deus ex machina we really do trivialise the whole thing.
As it stands, they're gonna live an immiserated existence, at here or abroad, and *so will we*. Net negative, man.
As always, Saint Marx guides my hand. Most of what I have said has its origins in Marx discussing the very phenomena we are, in relation to Irish labour being sent en masse to England for more or less the same reasons, merely updating for the fact that eventually the irish just become normal ol' proles, indistinguishable from the lot.
Immigration scares come and go, man. They do so for, well, pretty much the same reasons. Like nearly all the time.



1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.
Sure, but they'd be forced to live in slums at home. And we are often forced to live in slums, either way. All you gotta be to end up in a slum is poor, you feel?
Nah, you probably mean my modifications are wrong, man. Marx only observed the downward pressure in wages, the creation of two hostile proletarian camps, and the immiseration of both british industrial cities and the irish countryside.
Last edited by Kubra on Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Communal concils
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Postby Communal concils » Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:53 pm

Kubra wrote:
Communal concils wrote:

1. Yes, thing are still bad. However, I find it important to secure the situation of my nation. If people are force to come over here, they would be force to live in slums and be used as cheap labor. I see no reason to bring more people into another capitalist nation.

2. It is possible that Marx was wrong. I honestly think that orthodox Marxism is dead, and Marxism is only relevant through significant revisions of theory.

3. Yes that is true. But your simply ignoring the major impacts of such a thing. disease, overcrowding, and crime would simply shift into the new areas, and fascism can grow from such conditions. this has little to do with a "irrational" fear, but has to do with the Geo-political. implications and crises of the modern world.
Sure, but they'd be forced to live in slums at home. And we are often forced to live in slums, either way. All you gotta be to end up in a slum is poor, you feel?
Nah, you probably mean my modifications are wrong, man. Marx only observed the downward pressure in wages, the creation of two hostile proletarian camps, and the immiseration of the irish countryside.



okay.
Woke Leftist: Anti-Liberal Leftist

List of liberal or semi-liberal ideologies to avoid: "Left"-communism, trotskyism, Intersectionalism, anarchism,classical liberal, social liberalism and economic liberalism( conservatives are addicted to this)

Become anti-woke, and free yourself from the lies of mainstream corporate consumerist media.you should also become an anti-consumerist and anti-capitalist. Embrace socialism( the command economy is better.)
NOTE: Make Cultural Marxism a Real Thing !

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:25 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:You said Pinochet killed/tortured the majority of the opposition. If the opposition is half the country, the victim count should be much higher. The 1980 plebiscite put a term on Pinochet's power until the one in 1988 fully restored democracy.

You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?

The long-term economic good came from Pinochet's reforms.

[Citation needed]
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:29 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:You said Pinochet killed/tortured the majority of the opposition. If the opposition is half the country, the victim count should be much higher. The 1980 plebiscite put a term on Pinochet's power until the one in 1988 fully restored democracy.

You...do understand that hyperbole is a thing, right? You didn't think those were meant to be actual estimates, did you?

The long-term economic good came from Pinochet's reforms.

[Citation needed]

Lemme save us some time. nope.
Sex is great. But have you tried data visualizations of partisan spatial segregation?
The National Debt is not debt, but merely the sum total, to the penny, of every untaxed dollar in existence since the start of the nation.
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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:51 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
This kinda shit is an example out of many of exactly why the USSR and its derivatives fucking suck and did nothing good for furthering the cause of Socialism.

Perhaps socialism always degenerates into brutishness when practiced on a sufficiently large scale.

The state always degenerates into brutishness--socialist or otherwise.
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:53 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Jack Thomas Lang wrote:So this gay commie wrote a letter to Stalin asking whether homosexuals can be party member.

Stalin's response? “Archive. An idiot and a degenerate. J. Stalin.”


This kinda shit is an example out of many of exactly why the USSR and its derivatives fucking suck and did nothing good for furthering the cause of Socialism.
All the while rating and scribbling notes in the margins of some pretty erotic depictions of the male figure. Is Stalin the first closeted bro?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:54 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Imagine coming to agreement with a fascist about the "brutishness" of socialism.

Also, the laziest argument in existence.

They don't care about being right. This isn't discourse to them, this is a performance. They aren't here to change our minds or broaden their own understanding they're here to own the commies until we give up and leave the forum.

Hence why I generally try to ignore right-"libertarians" for the most part (tbh, they were the inspiration for the "Disclaimer" in my sig).
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:58 pm

Communal concils wrote:What is everyone's thoughts on Euro-Communism, and has any leftist here been called a liberal by Marxist-Leninist and a Tankie by libertarian socialist?

I think Eurocommunism is cool. I have indeed been called both a "liberal" and "imperialist" by MLs before. Never been insulted by other libsocs.
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:03 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:Right-libertarianism is a young ideology, unlike socialism, and has not been practiced on a large scale.

There's nothing "new" about it, it's just a modern spin on classical liberalism and laissez-faire capitalism, which have been tried and failed to such a massive extant that no one outside of North America even considers them to be realistic solutions at this point.
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:36 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:They don't care about being right. This isn't discourse to them, this is a performance. They aren't here to change our minds or broaden their own understanding they're here to own the commies until we give up and leave the forum.


Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.
Communist now and forever.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
She/they every day.
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:43 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.


It's rather remarkable the site even works this well nowadays tbh. Overall NS in general is ancient.
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Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 12:28 wrote:To those who ask 'Where then have you seen the gods? What conviction of their existence leads you to this worship of them?', I reply first that they are in fact visible to our eyes. Secondly, and not withstanding, that I have not seen my soul either, and yet I honor it. So it is with the gods too: from my every experience of their power time after time I am certain that they exist, and I revere them.
Julian the Apostate wrote:I feel awe of the gods, I love, I revere, I venerate them, and in short have precisely the same feelings towards them as one would have towards kind masters or teachers or fathers or guardians or any beings of that sort.

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:47 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Hanafuridake wrote:
Pretty much, the whole Freikorps flag thing is a good example of that.


A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.

How's it broken? I haven't had any problems with using it.
Nation is not a reflection of RL views and is currently undergoing extensive retconning, so factbooks are all out-of-date and inaccurate.
Neither left nor right.
"When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read: 'All men are created equal except negroes, foreigners and Catholics.' When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocrisy." - Abraham Lincoln

"Do not aim at what is impossible to attain, because in the quest for liberty we may fall into tyranny. Absolute liberty always leads to absolute power and among these two extremes is social liberty." - Simon Bolivar

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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:54 pm

Byzconia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
A shame that the ignore function on this site is completely broken, because there's no good way of filtering out that stuff.

How's it broken? I haven't had any problems with using it.


You can't really avoid those people you've got on ignore if somebody else quotes them.
Communist now and forever.
"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
She/they every day.
Suggestions welcome!

Capital - Karl Marx and Frederich Engels
Wage Labor and Capital - Karl Marx
The Conquest of Bread - Peter Kropotkin
Mutual Aid - Peter Kropotkin
Statism and Anarchy - Mikhail Bakunin

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Dec 21, 2019 12:29 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Who?

Eternal Lotharia.

Wow, I didn't realize that until just now.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:21 am

Totenborg wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Perhaps socialism always degenerates into brutishness when practiced on a sufficiently large scale.

And right libertarianism degenerates into brutishnes immediately. That being said, authoritarian socialism sucks as hard as fascism does.


How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:23 am

Proctopeo wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Who?

Eternal Lotharia.


Lol. What he do?
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Albrenia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:24 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Eternal Lotharia.


Lol. What he do?


From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:32 am

Albrenia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Lol. What he do?


From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.
China Lied, People Died.
Anti-imperialism is really code for anti-west.
Not to be confused with Novus America! We are NOT the same player.

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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:50 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.


Yeah, apparently he admitted to raping his cousin or something from what I can gather from moderation.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Totenborg
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:47 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:And right libertarianism degenerates into brutishnes immediately. That being said, authoritarian socialism sucks as hard as fascism does.


How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.

If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.
Last edited by Totenborg on Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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Nuroblav
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nuroblav » Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:58 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
From what I can piece together from what remains after all of his posts were deleted, something about admitting to a crime... or something.

He admitted to a crime that he committed as a child, and He admitted it years ago and the mods suppressed it years ago. I don't see how that would lead to a DOS now.

Wow. I didn't expect someone like Lotharia to get DOSed. RIP.
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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:56 am

Totenborg wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
How? Also, fascism really? Like you’re the reason why nobody takes that word seriously anymore and wears it as a badge of honor.

If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Proctopeo
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Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:09 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

I've seen people get called fascist for supporting the freedom of speech. Some people really do not know what fascism is.
I don't know what to put here, but I've returned.

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Totenborg
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Posts: 914
Founded: Mar 23, 2019
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Postby Totenborg » Sat Dec 21, 2019 11:13 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Totenborg wrote:If you wear fascism as a badge of honor, you've got a weird sense of honor. Disdain for human rights and democracy is not a badge of honor. The only people who don't take fascism seriously are either uniformed or fascists themselves. Sometimes, it's both.
Also, you seem to overestimate my influence.


I don't mean wearing the actual title of fascism as a badge of honor, more like being called one by some ignorant lefty. It's one thing to be against fascism, it's another to call anyone you don't agree with a fascist.

It's a good thing I don't do that, then.
Rabid anti-fascist.
Existential nihilist.
Lifer metalhead.
Unrepentant fan of birds.

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