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Recognition and badges for WA/Issues co-authors

Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

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The Noble Thatcherites
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Postby The Noble Thatcherites » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:55 pm

Great idea and definite support from me. :D
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Lenlyvit
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:24 pm

Bump. Also, I don't know what's going on with the issues part so ill contact Vulty via Discord.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:29 pm

Lenlyvit wrote:Bump

Our admins have almost certainly seen this thread, as they have made posts in other threads. They may have added it to our 5-year-long to-do list. I happen to have a good idea what current priorities are, and this isn't even on the radar.

Feel free to bump this thread every six months or so if you like. Let's not do daily or even monthly bumps. It's not going to raise the priority of this change.

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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:07 pm

*gently bumps* Well, its been about six months. I've updated the co-author lists, but I still need to figure out what to do about finding issues co-authors so stay tuned for that.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:23 pm

Kuriko wrote:I still need to figure out what to do about finding issues co-authors so stay tuned for that.


Try looking through the credits in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88

For example, this issue has two authors: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88&start=25#895

Older issues may have uncredited co-authors because the issues set-up was less sophisticated back then.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:35 pm

USS Monitor wrote:
Kuriko wrote:I still need to figure out what to do about finding issues co-authors so stay tuned for that.


Try looking through the credits in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88

For example, this issue has two authors: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88&start=25#895

Older issues may have uncredited co-authors because the issues set-up was less sophisticated back then.

Alright, I've added what I found although it doesn't seem there's very many. If I missed any I would appreciate it if someone pointed that out.
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USS Monitor
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19th Century Iron Steamship

Postby USS Monitor » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:59 pm

Kuriko wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Try looking through the credits in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88

For example, this issue has two authors: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=88&start=25#895

Older issues may have uncredited co-authors because the issues set-up was less sophisticated back then.

Alright, I've added what I found although it doesn't seem there's very many. If I missed any I would appreciate it if someone pointed that out.


I think co-authoring is less common in issues because people can get the editors to help them clean up their issue instead of getting a co-author to help them before they submit. You have to get your draft to the point that there's something for the editors to work with, but you don't have to get it to the point that it's ready to go in the game as is.
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:44 pm

How many nations will this actually be applied to? I can't imagine a badge would be hard to create, but it's not exactly something I would put as a priority (even on the 5 year list Fris mentioned 6 months back). Add in having to apply to all the past co-authors, and then figuring out whether it's automatic which OP said (lots of work for techies now) or mods/GenSec/issue editors having to apply it for every resolution (lots of work but over time). Like, I'm not against the idea in principle, just seems like a lot of work for only a small amount of players when the same effort could go in for other small new features/QoL stuff/reruns of events etc.
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Separatist Peoples
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:29 am

Flanderlion wrote:How many nations will this actually be applied to? I can't imagine a badge would be hard to create, but it's not exactly something I would put as a priority (even on the 5 year list Fris mentioned 6 months back). Add in having to apply to all the past co-authors, and then figuring out whether it's automatic which OP said (lots of work for techies now) or mods/GenSec/issue editors having to apply it for every resolution (lots of work but over time). Like, I'm not against the idea in principle, just seems like a lot of work for only a small amount of players when the same effort could go in for other small new features/QoL stuff/reruns of events etc.

Isnt that the whole point of a priority list? So more important or valuable features get priority?

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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:53 am

USS Monitor wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Alright, I've added what I found although it doesn't seem there's very many. If I missed any I would appreciate it if someone pointed that out.


I think co-authoring is less common in issues because people can get the editors to help them clean up their issue instead of getting a co-author to help them before they submit. You have to get your draft to the point that there's something for the editors to work with, but you don't have to get it to the point that it's ready to go in the game as is.

Yeah, that actually makes sense. Thanks for the help USS Moniter :)
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Lenlyvit
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:45 pm

Six month bump and update. Pretty sure I didn't miss any co-authors, and I went through the lists and moved CTEd nations and refounded nations to where they belong.
Last edited by Lenlyvit on Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lenlyvit
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Lenlyvit » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:10 pm

I know it's been more like 7 months than 6, but this is my 6 month bump. Lists are updated with new co-authors, but I didn't move CTE/non-CTE nations.
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Marxist Germany
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Postby Marxist Germany » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:20 pm

This is definitely something useful, I would also love for co authorship to be hard coded into the submissions page.
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Bears Armed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:48 am

This would make it even more important for Gensec (in the GA), the Mods (in the SC), and Issues Editors (for issues, of course), to look at whether a named co-author had actually contributed enough to earn the badge... which could seem highly subjective, and a probable cause of disputes.
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(and I say this as as [twice] a GA co-author...)
Last edited by Bears Armed on Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:08 pm

I just want to gently bump this since [v] seems to be around again lately, and hopefully see what she thinks.

Bears Armed wrote:This would make it even more important for Gensec (in the GA), the Mods (in the SC), and Issues Editors (for issues, of course), to look at whether a named co-author had actually contributed enough to earn the badge... which could seem highly subjective, and a probable cause of disputes.
Against.
(and I say this as as [twice] a GA co-author...)
I don't know about the GA, but in the SC there are hardly any disputes on co-authorship and I highly doubt there are disputes on issues being written. Also, sometimes it's fairly obvious when someone contributes enough to a proposal for co-authorship because they'll be right there in the discussion thread with the author. At least, that's what I see most of the time.
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Bears Armed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:08 am

Kuriko wrote:I just want to gently bump this since [v] seems to be around again lately, and hopefully see what she thinks.

Bears Armed wrote:This would make it even more important for Gensec (in the GA), the Mods (in the SC), and Issues Editors (for issues, of course), to look at whether a named co-author had actually contributed enough to earn the badge... which could seem highly subjective, and a probable cause of disputes.
Against.
(and I say this as as [twice] a GA co-author...)
I don't know about the GA, but in the SC there are hardly any disputes on co-authorship and I highly doubt there are disputes on issues being written. Also, sometimes it's fairly obvious when someone contributes enough to a proposal for co-authorship because they'll be right there in the discussion thread with the author. At least, that's what I see most of the time.

But I suspect that if there was a badge involved more people might name 'co-authors' even when those other players named hadn't really done much, to "reward" friends or for some quid pro quo...
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Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:57 pm

Kuriko wrote:I just want to gently bump this since [v] seems to be around again lately, and hopefully see what she thinks.

Well from my perspective, the basic functionality of allowing people to enter co-authors could be implemented without too much trouble. But everything else does seem troublesome, in particular:

- When someone lists other nations as co-authors of their proposals, who / how do we verify that those nations really are co-authors and want to be listed

- There is currently no ability to edit past WA resolutions

- Assuming I could add an edit feature, going back and editing 2,000+ past resolutions and issues based on sketchy surviving records is quite a lot of error-prone work. I also imagine it would be essentially never-ending as people retrospectively realize that this or that resolution should/shouldn't have a particular nation listed.

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Aclion
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Postby Aclion » Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:22 pm

[violet] wrote:
Kuriko wrote:I just want to gently bump this since [v] seems to be around again lately, and hopefully see what she thinks.

Well from my perspective, the basic functionality of allowing people to enter co-authors could be implemented without too much trouble. But everything else does seem troublesome, in particular:

- When someone lists other nations as co-authors of their proposals, who / how do we verify that those nations really are co-authors and want to be listed

Well, right now the standard is that they post in the drafting thread that their work is being used with permission. I don't know if there's ever been an attempt to list someone as a coauthor with their permission but I don't see why it wouldn't apply.

[violet] wrote:- There is currently no ability to edit past WA resolutions

- Assuming I could add an edit feature, going back and editing 2,000+ past resolutions and issues based on sketchy surviving records is quite a lot of error-prone work. I also imagine it would be essentially never-ending as people retrospectively realize that this or that resolution should/shouldn't have a particular nation listed.

I don't think it's fair to ask for more then listed coauthors be retroactively given the badge, even editing past resolutions is a bit much.

Bears Armed wrote:I suspect that if there was a badge involved more people might name 'co-authors' even when those other players named hadn't really done much, to "reward" friends or for some quid pro quo...

But should that be a rules violation or a part of the politics...

I'd go for the latter if only because anything else would be a pain to enforce with offsite drafting.
Last edited by Aclion on Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:30 pm

I could've sworn that I replied to this yesterday, but apparently I never posted it? Anyways, Aclion has pretty much hit the nail on the head. I'm not asking for past resolutions to be edited, that'd be a nightmare I wouldn't wish upon anyone.

What I'm asking, [v], is if it would be possible to retroactively place a badge on co-author nations. This wouldn't take as much work I believe, and that's why I created the list of co-authors in the OP. I was also wondering if, going forward from whenever it's possible to do, a co-author section could be hard coded into WA resolution submission which would automatically place a badge for co-authoring when a resolution passes.

Right now moderation handles co-authoring based upon an honor system, which I believe would still be the same even with this change.
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Separatist Peoples
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:10 am

Aclion wrote:Well, right now the standard is that they post in the drafting thread that their work is being used with permission. I don't know if there's ever been an attempt to list someone as a coauthor with their permission but I don't see why it wouldn't apply.


There's been a few, and iirc, it was treated as grounds for removal, but that was pre-GenSec control panel. To my knowledge, it's never been used offensively to remove a proposal, which is something I'd be concerned about if there was a way to do it without the forum involved.

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[violet]
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Postby [violet] » Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:58 pm

Kuriko wrote:What I'm asking, [v], is if it would be possible to retroactively place a badge on co-author nations.

It's possible but a bit problematic, because you're suggesting that some nations (going forward) would have a co-author badge because they're listed co-authors, while others (retrospectively) would have a badge even though they're not listed. That's the kind of hack that should be avoided if possible, because it makes everything else difficult -- for example, anyone attempting to read resolutions to generate a list of co-authors (either via the site or the API) would wind up with an incomplete list: The only way to get a comprehensive one would be to scan every single nation and check for the existence of a badge.

So if it's going to be done, I think it should be done properly, i.e. by editing past resolutions.

Anyway that's just the technical side. I don't think anyone has addressed who exactly would be responsible for moderating and verifying this stuff, both retrospectively and in the future. Gen-Sec? Mods? If there's a dispute, who resolves it? It's not sufficient to take a player-generated list of names and just start applying badges with no oversight or appeals process.

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Morover
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Postby Morover » Sun Dec 22, 2019 1:37 pm

[violet] wrote:
Kuriko wrote:Anyway that's just the technical side. I don't think anyone has addressed who exactly would be responsible for moderating and verifying this stuff, both retrospectively and in the future. Gen-Sec? Mods? If there's a dispute, who resolves it?

If I may make a suggestion for a moment here, I gotta say I don't think there should be a one-size-fits-all moderation for disputes. I think we should kinda retain the current "moderation" we have for each of the individual sections which this change would be implemented to.

E.G.
General Assembly - moderated by GenSec
Security Council - moderated by moderators
Issues - moderated by the Issues Editors

Of course, I use "moderated" a bit loosely here, but you should know what I mean.

This obviously wouldn't resolve all the issues, but in terms of what I quoted, I think it's really the only way to handle it.

If you wish to use any of my previous work - be it World Assembly or otherwise - feel free to use it, but I ask that you credit me as a co-author. If the piece credits a non-CTE'd co-author, I ask that you approach them first.
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Kuriko
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kuriko » Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:39 pm

Thanks for answering [v]. I'll just have to settle for it never coming to happen I guess.
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