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[Suggestion] Rankings and trophies for deck value

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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 am

The Northern Light wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:
Huh, I did not know that. So Koem Kab got his collection the hard way, manually answering issues on a multitude of nations?

Seems almost unbelievable.

Yep, see here for admin confirmation.

As a matter of fact, the OP in the thread is one of my own card farming puppets. As soon as cards returned, I rushed to create a farm with an issue-answering API script. Much to my disappointment (I guess delight in retrospect), I realized that it'd have to be done the hard, manual way.

I'm still concerned about people using old auto issue scripts for the card game - as I've caught a few using the ingame one (most just didn't know the change, and sorted it without mod intervention).

As someone who might collect the odd card that isn't my own, but only uses one nation, I'm not convinced on the card value as the sole stat. I remember ignoring total value early on after seeing some players trading cards they own between their own nations for inflated prices, dramatically increasing their deck values. I think there should also be total cards, total legendaries, total commons etc. stats, and if possible stats like most outbids, most buys, most gifts received etc. Similarly to the cards, for challenge games etc. and the other minigames there should be rankings etc. for them too.

Despite not every nation having had participated in the card games/challenge games etc. - I think they should still be options for the daily census, as it gives more visibility for these bits to the rest of the game.
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The Northern Light
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Postby The Northern Light » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:22 am

Flanderlion wrote:I'm still concerned about people using old auto issue scripts for the card game - as I've caught a few using the ingame one (most just didn't know the change, and sorted it without mod intervention).

I don't think we can use this as an argument against the proposed change (and, admittedly, I am not sure whether you are doing that, or just stating a side concern). People can use illegal scripts, including scripts that used to be legal, to do a whole lot of activities that would help earn them and their regions trophies: recruit, exchange endorsements, send telegrams, and so on. I don't think anyone would argue in favor of taking away from all nations trophies for endorsements, influence, number of nations, and all issue-related stats, just because some players may be getting them through illegal scripts.

Flanderlion wrote:As someone who might collect the odd card that isn't my own, but only uses one nation, I'm not convinced on the card value as the sole stat. I remember ignoring total value early on after seeing some players trading cards they own between their own nations for inflated prices, dramatically increasing their deck values. I think there should also be total cards, total legendaries, total commons etc. stats, and if possible stats like most outbids, most buys, most gifts received etc.

I'd be all for having more than one card-related censuses (and associated trophies). But I imagine it's a lot more realistic to expect that, should the admins decide to implement this, they will just add one stat, at least to begin with.

I do think that deck value is the best among the options you listed, as it's the best (if imperfect) easily measurable metric we have right now about how much the community at large values someone's card collection.

Flanderlion wrote:Similarly to the cards, for challenge games etc. and the other minigames there should be rankings etc. for them too.

Despite not every nation having had participated in the card games/challenge games etc. - I think they should still be options for the daily census, as it gives more visibility for these bits to the rest of the game.

Again, personally I would be very glad to see rankings and trophies for other minigames. But I would prefer if that was treated as a separate suggestion, so as not to derail this thread.

It's worth emphasizing though that, since they were first introduced on April Fool's 2018, cards have evolved, from yet another novelty minigrame, to a bona fide part of the main game. Unlike other minigames, they have their own (extensive) entry in the FAQ, their own forum, continued admin support, continued renewal (in the form of the upcoming seasons), and even Security Council resolutions written about them. Several regions have also begun using them for other purposes such as recruitment and WA promotion (TNP is no longer the only example of this).

Given all the above, I do think that a much stronger case can be made for adding rankings and trophies for cards, than for other minigames.
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The Northern Light
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Postby The Northern Light » Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:57 am

I'd like to bump this proposal, as it seemed to have a lot of support.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:52 pm

On a note, I do know that Z-Day at least has trophies for the few stats related for the duration of the event (plus time afterwards), so it's not unprecedented for the minigames to have trophies attached.

I think this is a good idea anyways :)
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Postby Giovanniland » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:45 pm

I am a new player and so far I like this card game. Maybe some of you, older nations, have seen me in some auctions. This is a nice idea! Passing here to write my full support.
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Valentine Z
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Postby Valentine Z » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:26 pm

As a small bump, I agree to this as well. More data for me to work with, hehe.

I was also thinking about card value itself, not just the deck value. As in, that nation's card value with time. Maybe then I could see a correlation between Population and Card Value, for example. Just more stats to play with. :P



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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:41 am

I might as well add my two cents. I very much disagree with this suggestion.
Cards don't exist in-game, in the world depicted by your nation's overview write-up, census data, and issues. It is a meta game that is outside of the canon of the 'world of issues,' which is the world reflected in census data. I do not believe it is intended to be implied that your nation's government really has a stash of cards locked up in the treasury somewhere.

In anticipation to the rejoinder that endorsements have their own badge -- this does not contradict my interpretation of the game because WA endorsements are supposed to be representative of 'real' diplomatic relations between the governments of player's nations, even though their mechanical function lies elsewhere.
Consider the influence census, which is determined in part by WA endorsements. In reality its function lies in region mechanics, which is the reason for which it was implemented, but in the census description it is presented as if it actually represents your nation's soft power in the canon.

In my view, adding the proposed census would muddy the waters and spoil the fiction in a most disagreeable way.
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Postby SherpDaWerp » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:04 am

I would direct you to this resolution which was deemed not-metagaming by the mods.
A census score like the one proposed here could be called "National Art Collection Value", and it would further-entrench that interpretation of the minigame.

Where do you draw the line of "canon" and "not canon"?
If the WA is canon, then cards are canon per SC#287. If the WA is not canon, then surely WA endorsements cannot be canon either...?

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Postby Australian rePublic » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:07 am

Sucks for people like me who have to pay to increase deck capacity whilst others increase there's beyond the limit. I've paid A LOT of bank to get near the point where I can increase to 800, and that doesn't add to deck limit
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Flanderlion
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Postby Flanderlion » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:31 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:I might as well add my two cents. I very much disagree with this suggestion.
Cards don't exist in-game, in the world depicted by your nation's overview write-up, census data, and issues. It is a meta game that is outside of the canon of the 'world of issues,' which is the world reflected in census data. I do not believe it is intended to be implied that your nation's government really has a stash of cards locked up in the treasury somewhere.

In anticipation to the rejoinder that endorsements have their own badge -- this does not contradict my interpretation of the game because WA endorsements are supposed to be representative of 'real' diplomatic relations between the governments of player's nations, even though their mechanical function lies elsewhere.
Consider the influence census, which is determined in part by WA endorsements. In reality its function lies in region mechanics, which is the reason for which it was implemented, but in the census description it is presented as if it actually represents your nation's soft power in the canon.

In my view, adding the proposed census would muddy the waters and spoil the fiction in a most disagreeable way.

Would cards not just be art in canon? e.g. Most valuable art collection, largest art collection
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Postby Destructive Government Economic System » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:49 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:I might as well add my two cents. I very much disagree with this suggestion.
Cards don't exist in-game, in the world depicted by your nation's overview write-up, census data, and issues. It is a meta game that is outside of the canon of the 'world of issues,' which is the world reflected in census data. I do not believe it is intended to be implied that your nation's government really has a stash of cards locked up in the treasury somewhere.

In anticipation to the rejoinder that endorsements have their own badge -- this does not contradict my interpretation of the game because WA endorsements are supposed to be representative of 'real' diplomatic relations between the governments of player's nations, even though their mechanical function lies elsewhere.
Consider the influence census, which is determined in part by WA endorsements. In reality its function lies in region mechanics, which is the reason for which it was implemented, but in the census description it is presented as if it actually represents your nation's soft power in the canon.

In my view, adding the proposed census would muddy the waters and spoil the fiction in a most disagreeable way.


Destructive Government Economic System wrote:taking inspiration from Bormiar's condemnation, we could even refer to the deck value badge as "highest national art value" if said badge needs to be slightly more related to a country-based stat.
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Postby Refuge Isle » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:52 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Sucks for people like me who have to pay to increase deck capacity whilst others increase there's beyond the limit. I've paid A LOT of bank to get near the point where I can increase to 800, and that doesn't add to deck limit

God I'm tired of this.

You don't have a special handicap on your nation, everyone plays by the same rules. The purpose of the deck limits is to, as News described:
Essentially: You should be able to offer a good card for cheap or even free to someone you know, because that's how communities work. But puppet farms should not easily stream their cards to a single owner.

It does this. And, still, getting cards to a single owner is possible. Anything less would not allow for large collections like Karen Matheson or DEGS where it would take some one million bank to expand the limit and be able to gift those cards in.

You're free to buy and sell card within your deck-limited account. You are also free to conduct bank transfers using sales and purchases within your deck-limited account. In order to make up for the absence of money, you invest additional time which 99% of players are not going to do.

Even for accounts that are interested in deck value, I've managed to get to 18th on the deck value leaderboard by increasing my deck limit four times. TNL, Mikeswill, Captain Woodhouse, Luna with a deck cap of 2,700, Siwale, Xoriet, etc, etc, etc, have all spent the bank necessary to increase their deck limit and continue receiving gifts. Your complaint is targeting scarcely ten accounts that have primarily set out to make high-quantity collections for the purposes of those collection. The exception to that assessment is Koem Kab who was condemned for using this practice for hoarding, alone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Merconitonitopia wrote:I might as well add my two cents. I very much disagree with this suggestion.
Cards don't exist in-game, in the world depicted by your nation's overview write-up, census data, and issues. It is a meta game that is outside of the canon of the 'world of issues,' which is the world reflected in census data. I do not believe it is intended to be implied that your nation's government really has a stash of cards locked up in the treasury somewhere.

For what it's worth Z-Day, with the number of citizens alive, dead, zombified (Zombies? When did I agree to that?) get badges from census stats during the minigame in which they run. They're independent from issues, form fields, and everyone is a part of the it. To argue that, therefore, cards have no place in badges is to argue that cards have no place in NationStates for being an OoC minigame.

Should cards be on NationStates and have deck value badges? At this point, it's hard to imagine them not a part of the game, so yes.
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:54 am

Z-Day censuses are only displayed and featured for the duration of the event. Z-Day is reflected in the nation write-up, with the Z-Day population reported and comment made of how many zombies are infesting the country. It does not exist outside of the core game, even if everything goes back to normal next episode (after which it is implied that there no continuity with the event after the fact, as populations go back to normal and so on).
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:02 am

Flanderlion wrote:Would cards not just be art in canon? e.g. Most valuable art collection, largest art collection

Destructive Government Economic System wrote:
Destructive Government Economic System wrote:taking inspiration from Bormiar's condemnation, we could even refer to the deck value badge as "highest national art value" if said badge needs to be slightly more related to a country-based stat.

There is a good case to be made here.
"World Census reporters perused the world's museums to determine which nations are home to most prized art collections." Something to that effect.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:56 am

Merconitonitopia wrote:
Flanderlion wrote:Would cards not just be art in canon? e.g. Most valuable art collection, largest art collection

Destructive Government Economic System wrote:

There is a good case to be made here.
"World Census reporters perused the world's museums to determine which nations are home to most prized art collections." Something to that effect.

But that [IC] explanation would already factor into the 'Most Cultured' rating anyway...
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The Northern Light
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Postby The Northern Light » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:23 pm

Bears Armed wrote:But that [IC] explanation would already factor into the 'Most Cultured' rating anyway...

There are quite a few other ratings that are related to or are subsumed into others. To name some examples: Average Income, Average Income of Rich, and Average Disposable Income; Economy, Economic Output and all the specific Industry ratings; Religiousness and Secularism.
Last edited by The Northern Light on Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Nov 24, 2019 12:08 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Merconitonitopia wrote:
There is a good case to be made here.
"World Census reporters perused the world's museums to determine which nations are home to most prized art collections." Something to that effect.

But that [IC] explanation would already factor into the 'Most Cultured' rating anyway...

Having a lot of art doesn't really mean one is cultured. After all, museums with zero attendance have as much culture as the equivalent empty building ;)
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Merconitonitopia
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Postby Merconitonitopia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:31 am

You could have a lot of art without having any culture of your own. You could also have a rich culture found in things other than paintings and all that.
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Recuecn
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Postby Recuecn » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:40 pm

This maybe isn't a super helpful contribution to the discussion, but I don't really think rankings here are necessary, and so I wouldn't add them.

This is for a few reasons. For one thing, rankings for deck value already exist on the market page, so it's not like people don't already have that information. Second, the number of nations with decently sized collections, when compared against the total number of nations, is so small that pretty much anybody who's spent any time farming is in the one percent. Furthermore, as with other minigames, there's some people who take a strong aversion for some reason or other and want to opt out. Adding a permanent badge would bother some people, I think. (Badges for Z-day were mentioned before, but those are only temporary. Maybe there could be temporary badges at the end of each season instead.)
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Msnmsn
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Postby Msnmsn » Sat Dec 07, 2019 6:16 pm

if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Dec 08, 2019 5:21 am

Msnmsn wrote:if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

That favours nations whose cards have low rarity values, because there are likely to be more copies given out and lower prices charged for them...
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:17 am

Bears Armed wrote:
Msnmsn wrote:if i may make a request to also make a special badge for anyone who collects say 20 or more copies of their own nations card.

That favours nations whose cards have low rarity values, because there are likely to be more copies given out and lower prices charged for them...

I think number of a specific card peaks around the rare/ultra area actually, since Epic and Legendary come up so infrequently and Common/Un have so many options. Could be wrong though.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:04 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:That favours nations whose cards have low rarity values, because there are likely to be more copies given out and lower prices charged for them...

I think number of a specific card peaks around the rare/ultra area actually, since Epic and Legendary come up so infrequently and Common/Un have so many options. Could be wrong though.

Good point. i sit corrected.
The Confederated Clans of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Our population is approximately 20 million. We do have a national government, although its role is strictly limited. Economy = thriving. Those aren't "biker gangs", they're our traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies'... and are generally respected, not feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
Factbook. We have more than 70 MAPS. Visitors' Guide.
The IDU's WA Drafting Room is open to help you.
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Recuecn
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Postby Recuecn » Mon Dec 09, 2019 2:54 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:That favours nations whose cards have low rarity values, because there are likely to be more copies given out and lower prices charged for them...

I think number of a specific card peaks around the rare/ultra area actually, since Epic and Legendary come up so infrequently and Common/Un have so many options. Could be wrong though.

I don't think that's how it works. A particular legendary card isn't more or less likely to be drawn than a particular common card or any other given card, if we disregard the fact that cards are more likely to be drawn while they're at auction. Legendaries just seem so rare because there's so few of them collectively--although you're just as likely to draw a specific common card, there's so many common cards that one seems to be drowning in them.

So to Bears Armed's point, I think they are right that it is easier to collect your card if the rarity is lower since it will be cheaper (not more or less plentiful).

For this and other reasons, I would say I also don't think it makes sense to give a badge for collecting your own card. It's nice that the card game is open ended without any specific goals. People collect cards purely on the Marie Kondo philosophy: they keep the ones that spark joy. If the game were to say 'ok, collect whatever you want, but we'll only reward you for collecting this card,' that would take away from that.
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Pangurstan
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Pangurstan » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:21 pm


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