by Ifreann » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:31 pm
by Agend » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:37 pm
by Gig em Aggies » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:40 pm
Ifreann wrote:NYT
Following an armed robbery of a jewellery store, during which the robbers and shopkeeper exchanged fire and it is unclear if anything was actually stolen, the robbers hijacked a UPS truck in an attempt to escape. Police pursued the truck onto a nearby highway where it was caught in traffic. The ensuing shoot-out was caught on camera by a news chopper. Officers can be seen out of their vehicles firing on the UPS truck, in which driver Frank Ordoñez was being held hostage, while taking cover behind occupied vehicles on the road. Ordoñez, his identity confirmed by his family, not the police, was killed in the shoot-out, though as far as I am aware it is not yet known whether he was killed by the police or the robbers. One other person was also killed, as were the two robbers. Miramar PD tweeted and later deleted confirmation that there had been no law enforcement fatalities.
This is a horrifying example of the reckless militarisation of law enforcement in the US and of a disregard for human life and public safety that we can only hope is criminal. Police officers are being taught that they are warriors whose duty is to kill evildoers, sheepdogs who must kill the wolves to protect the sheep, and being given military equipment without anything like military training. Any number of current and former US soldiers have commented that the rules of engagement they operate under in active warzones are more restrictive than what cops seemingly operate under in the US. It is a war crime to take cover behind civilians, but here are cops doing exactly that, and firing at people who have a hostage, and firing when there are bystanders behind their targets. And for what? Some jewels? The robbers might not have even taken anything. The cops might have killed an innocent person, a victim of these criminals, and certainly endangered all the nearby drivers, seemingly just so they could kill the bad guys.
How is America going to deal with this threat they face from their own law enforcement officers? My position remains, as it has long been, that the police should be disarmed. Ordinary cops do not need guns. Situations requiring an armed response can be handled by dedicated firearms units. Such units would have strictly limited duties and could thus receive highly specialised training. But what say you, leavened and unleavened masses of NSG?
by Chernoslavia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:41 pm
Agend wrote:Disarming the police is of utmost stupidity. The strength of law is dependent on the strength of arms.
by Gig em Aggies » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:42 pm
by Chernoslavia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:44 pm
Gig em Aggies wrote:Ifreann wrote:NYT
Following an armed robbery of a jewellery store, during which the robbers and shopkeeper exchanged fire and it is unclear if anything was actually stolen, the robbers hijacked a UPS truck in an attempt to escape. Police pursued the truck onto a nearby highway where it was caught in traffic. The ensuing shoot-out was caught on camera by a news chopper. Officers can be seen out of their vehicles firing on the UPS truck, in which driver Frank Ordoñez was being held hostage, while taking cover behind occupied vehicles on the road. Ordoñez, his identity confirmed by his family, not the police, was killed in the shoot-out, though as far as I am aware it is not yet known whether he was killed by the police or the robbers. One other person was also killed, as were the two robbers. Miramar PD tweeted and later deleted confirmation that there had been no law enforcement fatalities.
This is a horrifying example of the reckless militarisation of law enforcement in the US and of a disregard for human life and public safety that we can only hope is criminal. Police officers are being taught that they are warriors whose duty is to kill evildoers, sheepdogs who must kill the wolves to protect the sheep, and being given military equipment without anything like military training. Any number of current and former US soldiers have commented that the rules of engagement they operate under in active warzones are more restrictive than what cops seemingly operate under in the US. It is a war crime to take cover behind civilians, but here are cops doing exactly that, and firing at people who have a hostage, and firing when there are bystanders behind their targets. And for what? Some jewels? The robbers might not have even taken anything. The cops might have killed an innocent person, a victim of these criminals, and certainly endangered all the nearby drivers, seemingly just so they could kill the bad guys.
How is America going to deal with this threat they face from their own law enforcement officers? My position remains, as it has long been, that the police should be disarmed. Ordinary cops do not need guns. Situations requiring an armed response can be handled by dedicated firearms units. Such units would have strictly limited duties and could thus receive highly specialised training. But what say you, leavened and unleavened masses of NSG?
so lets play a game say your in the LAPD and you roll up on to drugged up bank robbers wearing homemade head to toe body armor toting ak-47s and hk91's and they start firing at you are you just gonna sit there and let them kill you because you think police shouldn't be armed. instead of solving the problem you would be helping it get worse by disarming police. plus even the LAPD swat had a hard time during the North Hollywood Shootout and the SLA shootout in 74 hell the FBI had a difficult time during Waco what im trying to say is your idea is stupid. What happens if an armed gunman walks into your home and takes them hostage and you too far away are you gonna call your non-existent un armed police?
by Chernoslavia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:45 pm
by Vassenor » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:47 pm
Agend wrote:Disarming the police is of utmost stupidity. The strength of law is dependent on the strength of arms. Fear is what morality and the law are upheld by, take away their arms and no one will listen to the government, much less follow the laws.
by Chernoslavia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:47 pm
Vassenor wrote:Agend wrote:Disarming the police is of utmost stupidity. The strength of law is dependent on the strength of arms. Fear is what morality and the law are upheld by, take away their arms and no one will listen to the government, much less follow the laws.
I dunno, it's worked pretty well here.
by Agend » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:49 pm
by The Chuck » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:50 pm
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by Nouveau Quebecois » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:51 pm
by Chernoslavia » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:52 pm
by Valrifell » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:53 pm
Nouveau Quebecois wrote:Why is there no option to praise the police and give them more military equipment and power?
by Gig em Aggies » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:56 pm
by Valentine Z » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:00 pm
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by Ifreann » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:00 pm
Agend wrote:Disarming the police is of utmost stupidity. The strength of law is dependent on the strength of arms. Fear is what morality and the law are upheld by, take away their arms and no one will listen to the government, much less follow the laws.
Gig em Aggies wrote:Ifreann wrote:NYT
Following an armed robbery of a jewellery store, during which the robbers and shopkeeper exchanged fire and it is unclear if anything was actually stolen, the robbers hijacked a UPS truck in an attempt to escape. Police pursued the truck onto a nearby highway where it was caught in traffic. The ensuing shoot-out was caught on camera by a news chopper. Officers can be seen out of their vehicles firing on the UPS truck, in which driver Frank Ordoñez was being held hostage, while taking cover behind occupied vehicles on the road. Ordoñez, his identity confirmed by his family, not the police, was killed in the shoot-out, though as far as I am aware it is not yet known whether he was killed by the police or the robbers. One other person was also killed, as were the two robbers. Miramar PD tweeted and later deleted confirmation that there had been no law enforcement fatalities.
This is a horrifying example of the reckless militarisation of law enforcement in the US and of a disregard for human life and public safety that we can only hope is criminal. Police officers are being taught that they are warriors whose duty is to kill evildoers, sheepdogs who must kill the wolves to protect the sheep, and being given military equipment without anything like military training. Any number of current and former US soldiers have commented that the rules of engagement they operate under in active warzones are more restrictive than what cops seemingly operate under in the US. It is a war crime to take cover behind civilians, but here are cops doing exactly that, and firing at people who have a hostage, and firing when there are bystanders behind their targets. And for what? Some jewels? The robbers might not have even taken anything. The cops might have killed an innocent person, a victim of these criminals, and certainly endangered all the nearby drivers, seemingly just so they could kill the bad guys.
How is America going to deal with this threat they face from their own law enforcement officers? My position remains, as it has long been, that the police should be disarmed. Ordinary cops do not need guns. Situations requiring an armed response can be handled by dedicated firearms units. Such units would have strictly limited duties and could thus receive highly specialised training. But what say you, leavened and unleavened masses of NSG?
so lets play a game say your in the LAPD and you roll up on to drugged up bank robbers wearing homemade head to toe body armor toting ak-47s and hk91's and they start firing at you are you just gonna sit there and let them kill you because you think police shouldn't be armed.
instead of solving the problem you would be helping it get worse by disarming police. plus even the LAPD swat had a hard time during the North Hollywood Shootout and the SLA shootout in 74 hell the FBI had a difficult time during Waco what im trying to say is your idea is stupid. What happens if an armed gunman walks into your home and takes them hostage and you too far away are you gonna call your non-existent un armed police?
Nouveau Quebecois wrote:Why is there no option to praise the police and give them more military equipment and power?
by Diopolis » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:01 pm
by Loben The 2nd » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:08 pm
by Nouveau Quebecois » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:16 pm
Loben The 2nd wrote:can we please define what exactly is a *human shield* in this context?
by Satuga » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:16 pm
Ifreann wrote:NYT
Following an armed robbery of a jewellery store, during which the robbers and shopkeeper exchanged fire and it is unclear if anything was actually stolen, the robbers hijacked a UPS truck in an attempt to escape. Police pursued the truck onto a nearby highway where it was caught in traffic. The ensuing shoot-out was caught on camera by a news chopper. Officers can be seen out of their vehicles firing on the UPS truck, in which driver Frank Ordoñez was being held hostage, while taking cover behind occupied vehicles on the road. Ordoñez, his identity confirmed by his family, not the police, was killed in the shoot-out, though as far as I am aware it is not yet known whether he was killed by the police or the robbers. One other person was also killed, as were the two robbers. Miramar PD tweeted and later deleted confirmation that there had been no law enforcement fatalities.
This is a horrifying example of the reckless militarisation of law enforcement in the US and of a disregard for human life and public safety that we can only hope is criminal. Police officers are being taught that they are warriors whose duty is to kill evildoers, sheepdogs who must kill the wolves to protect the sheep, and being given military equipment without anything like military training. Any number of current and former US soldiers have commented that the rules of engagement they operate under in active warzones are more restrictive than what cops seemingly operate under in the US. It is a war crime to take cover behind civilians, but here are cops doing exactly that, and firing at people who have a hostage, and firing when there are bystanders behind their targets. And for what? Some jewels? The robbers might not have even taken anything. The cops might have killed an innocent person, a victim of these criminals, and certainly endangered all the nearby drivers, seemingly just so they could kill the bad guys.
How is America going to deal with this threat they face from their own law enforcement officers? My position remains, as it has long been, that the police should be disarmed. Ordinary cops do not need guns. Situations requiring an armed response can be handled by dedicated firearms units. Such units would have strictly limited duties and could thus receive highly specialised training. But what say you, leavened and unleavened masses of NSG?
by Loben The 2nd » Fri Dec 06, 2019 1:17 pm
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