Tiandi Discussion Thread

[Arumdaum]

Tiandi Discussion Thread

The new Tiandi discussion thread! This thread is meant primarily for discussions that are too complex to have on our discord, but any kind of discussion regarding the region may be had on this thread. This thread is for accepted members of Tiandi only. If you'd like to join, feel free to apply!

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[Arumdaum]

Going to repost some still relevant posts.

RE: Socialism, philosophy, etc.

Dominant philosophies and ideologies in Tiandi will have fairly different roots from the ones which dominate Earth. The impetus for the development of modern socialist thought in Tiandi will be without a doubt the industrial revolution. However, this will draw back on previous philosophical traditions.

While it may seem easy to simply replace socialism with Mohism or Agriculturalism, neither of these philosophies were meant to deal with the rapid changes and constant disruption which came with industrialization and capitalism. Any new schools of thought would be their own--more than just Mohism or Agriculturalism. Thinkers from these new schools of thought would in addition draw ideas not only from ancient philosophers but also more contemporaneous philosophers. Philosophers would be more influenced by their contemporaries and the society in which they live rather than by ancient philosophers who lived in wildly different societies and times, although ancient philosophers would still be influential.

We had a player here who said that his nation was Daoist because that seemed the most natural for free trade--we should remember, however, that Tiandi is not simply 17th-century East Asia with 21st-century technology, and furthermore, we should get beyond the Western stereotype that East Asian societies are impervious to change. We should also remember that religion in East Asia was historically syncretic and that people drew their beliefs from several differing traditions rather than just one.

In Tiandi, Confucian philosophy became dominant throughout Sinju, but Confucianism existed alongside other belief systems such as Buddhism and Taoism. Unlike many people have assumed, this does not mean that Confucianism completely dominates Sinju and the world today, and that everyone is a hardcore Confucian. I've generally imagined Confucianism in the Center taking a role somewhat akin to Christianity in the West (with obvious differences, considering Confucianism isn't a religion)--present and heavily influential, but no longer a dominant force in society. Several aspects of Confucian ideology, such as the disregard for merchants, would be weakened as Sinju becomes increasingly capitalistic.

Furthermore, Confucianism in Tiandi would be different from Confucianism IRL. We have to reconsider a few things: considering Sinju and Tianqi's maritime geography, would there have been the same disregard for merchants? Belief systems cannot be imported wholesale into Tiandi, and must be melded in order to both make sense and fit in regional canon. This doesn't mean everyone has to make con-religions and con-philosophies, but it means that Jesus can't be born in Bethlehem and executed by the Romans (neither Bethlehem nor the Romans exist here).

There are a few things, though, I'd like to preserve from RL East Asia. First is the lack of strong, organized religion and the dominance of a secular scholar-gentry class. Another is the syncretism that was present heavily in East Asia, with Buddhism, Taoism, and indigenous beliefs such as Muism in Korea or Shinto in Japan all melding together.

Thoughts?

I think creating our own religions is fine. I've tried creating my own, and I've worked on creating a religion with someone else here as well. You don't necessarily need to focus on the specific details of the religion and how they view spirituality, God, and all that. I mostly focused on how historical forces and culture helped to mold and create a religion, and how religion helped to influence culture. Also just having one religion that isn't very developed being associated with one of my nations, and then having it be present in my former colonies as a result of colonization.

Might I ask how the history of music might be impacted? I reckon that Western classical music would be a niche genre, of course, but I was thinking more about popular music. Would rock music, for example, even exist, given the premise of this region?

There are a lot of things that would be very different if historically things actually turned out this way, in ways we can only guess through conjecture. It's difficult to imagine how exactly traditional forms of East Asian music would have evolved with industrialization and little outside influence. It'd be more difficult trying to actually find songs for things such as anthems based off of music that never existed IRL. It's pretty difficult to change everything, so I'm fine if we handwave a lot of things.

For example, I don't think East Asian nations historically had national flags. They were only really adopted once Europeans began dominating the globe and telling everyone they're not a legit country if they don't have a flag. Same with national anthems. However, I think it's cool to have both for all our nations!

Then again, having our governments create new forms of national symbols isn't that hard to justify.

A lot of us are probably going to find it difficult trying to find pictures of world leaders wearing traditional East Asian types of clothing, especially for non-Asians (like how world leaders nowadays mostly wear western-style suits). Things like this we could probably ignore, although it'd be great if we found good pictures of something similar!

I highly suggest we use a system that is as separated from religions and beliefs as possible. If not, then perhaps the western law system could have been imported and merged with the existing system to create a legal system free of religious influence.

Yeah, I think it should be pretty separated from religion. I think that's how it was in East Asia historically anyway.

Unlike in the West, where secular and religious powers co-existed and fostered a tradition of pluralism, the traditional Chinese legal system, as a tool of the sovereign, has never encountered strong counterparts, and therefore never tolerated the existence of any alien powers and legal rules other than those of the emperor. From a socio-cultural standpoint, however, it is interesting to note that while in the West, individuals have typically been intrinsically seen as linked to a single religious tradition (that is, a strong division traditionally existed between rival denominations, or between Christianity and Judaism), in Chinese culture, people have been able to simultaneously be adherents of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, or some combination of these.

In contrast to many other peoples, the Chinese never attributed their laws to a divine lawgiver. The same is true for the rule which governed the whole of life, and which therefore might legitimately be called "laws"; no divine origin is found for li (rules of correct behaviour) either.

I think we should refer to the nations of Sinju and its settler colonies as "Central nations" with "Central culture," in the same way that European nations and its settler colonies such as the US and Australia are referred to as "Western nations" that have "Western culture."

Nations that are not Central can be referred to as Outer, perhaps.

I actually intentionally placed Sinju in the upper central portion of the map, and shaped the rest of the map so that Sinju's central location can be emphasized geographically (e.g. Sinju is right smack in the middle of Yoju and Uju). You can notice that the map is somewhat symmetrical. I also intentionally placed Jeongmi so that the exact center of the upper half of the map would be there.

Sinju is seen as the center of not only civilization but the world, and its location near the top of the map shows that it is not only metaphorically but literally above the rest of the world (though obviously it is not at the uppermost extremity of the map).

Sinjucentrism.

I can do it on photoshop.

Unfortunately, the maps is saved as a .pdn, and I don't know if I can convert it to a different format and send it to you for you to edit, haha, though I would love if that were possible.

Also, some notes, mostly for myself regarding historic civil service examinations and administrative divisions in Jeongmi:

Village/Town
County
Prefecture
Province
Region
Nation

Civil service examinations should have started at the county level, with taking the next test only possible through passing the previous level. Those who excelled in the national examinations taken in the capital would have qualified for another exam taken within the Imperial Palace itself. De facto, it should have been possible to buy yourself lower-level degrees equivalent to passing an exam in order to take the next one, though the Imperial Court would have largely ineffectively attempted to stomp this out several times, with local officials (who profit off of this) resisting such attempts.

Attempts at standardizing even lower-level exams should have taken place beginning either in the late Kim or Choe dynasties.

I think this makes introducing a very low-level test that only provides basic voting rights for certain positions and decisions easier - this is how I plan on having democracy slowly introduced among Sinju and Sinju settler states in the late modern era, similar to how voting rights in Britain and the US initially had property requirements.

Considering, however, that many of us wouldn't have been feudal societies in the preceding period (with the possible exception of... Aki? Raj?), and a career in government (provided by studying for and passing examinations) being much more prestigious than in the West, I don't think land-ownership requirements would really have been that big of a deal.

I could be wrong, but I don't really know, haha. I think what I've been using however is pretty interesting. There's also that increasing urbanization and commercialization would result in educated, wealthy merchants who don't really own much land feeling left out of the process, despite many peasant farmers probably qualifying.

also while thinking about this i just realized that "royal" is sort of like the french word for king "roi" and that they are related and that's probably why the japanese imperial family is called the imperial family and not the royal family cuz the emperor of japan is an emperor not a king wow

[Arumdaum]

Anyone wanna help me in doing Nomyo? I'm trying to figure out how Nomyo liberalism developed

I think the rise of liberalism should correspond with the rise of the bourgeoisie as a class following developments of increasing materialism and commercialization of society that come with capitalism.

Nomyo wouldn't be in a vacuum and so should be heavily influenced by events and thoughts taking shape outside of its borders as well.

The new, largely urban bourgeoisie feel left out of power despite their influence in capitalist society due to existing political systems at the time reflecting the long-time dominance of traditional land-based agrarian elites (think feudal lords or aristocracy with titles in general). They want more power for themselves and thus have calls for greater inclusiveness in the political system.

I don't think it's necessary for organized and evangelical religion to be a force in Tiandi, nor do I think that any such religions are somehow more indicative advancement or development. In fact, I thought that religion taking a backseat in sociopolitical and cultural affairs would be one of the major changes from a Western-dominated to an East Asian-dominated world order. I don't think East Asia had ever seen a major religious conflict prior to the Opium Wars.

This actually makes me interested in how freedom of religion would be seen in Tiandi; the idea of freedom of religion developed in the West due to constant conflicts and bickering over differing religious beliefs. However, in East Asia, differing religious traditions largely blended into one another, and religious organizations were generally seen as a threat to the state if they got too powerful. Would modern governments have tried to stamp out various religious ideas it saw as outdated, such as those regarding the creation of the world?

I would prefer if religions and religious organizations were historically suppressed if they were seen as too powerful, as that is what happened IRL. I still think Buddhism should have spread from the South Asia area (which is Southern Yoju, haha) into Sinju. While Sinju states would not have attempted to spread these religions, and people attempting to spread religions like Buddhism would not find much support from their governments, I think that individual colonists or small groups may have attempted to spread these religions.

In regards to religion, I think for the most part it should be up to the player, as long as it works with canon. I honestly think it's a lot of fun having Christian terrorists we call "crusaders" from Gungju, and would love to keep that, as I'm sure others would as well.

I'm gonna avoid the question about governability, since my current schedule kind of prevents me from RPing too much so it's not like I have much to contribute. However, I did have some observations regarding Christianity in Tiandi.

I understand that this is a region where East Asia is the centre of the world network and that the distance between its "Europe" and its "NAME" regions is more considerable than in our own world. As a result I was wondering how Christianity might evolve. I don't think that real life's division between Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy makes sense in Tiandi and I'd hope it's not used. Protestantism and Orthodoxy to a larger degree are the result of very specific clerico-political conflicts over issues that were more political than theological in nature. The division between WRE and ERE and later between the Romano-Germanic West and the Byzantium resulted in the development of two parallel politicul culture, one where the primacy of Rome was the norm and one where there were several patriarchs who were all subordinate to the Emperor. This won't happen. And much less with Protestantism, which surged from the humanistic Catholicism of Erasmus and its denounce of the Roman corruption and political intrigues. Nor does it make too much sense, imho, to have several Popes, the conditions for an Avignon papacy may not exist in Tiandi.

So, what I was thinking is that we could have a more 'Islamic', if you will, division of Christianity. Because it doesn't make sense to have just one single interpretation, that is simply not the case for any Abrahamic religion. Why Islamic? Because I was thinking of inspiring the division on the much deeper theological issues over the nature of God and the nature of Christ that domination theological debates from the 4th century until the Muslim invasions of the Levant and North Africa. These divisions, like those between Sunni and Shiites and others, will be much deeper than those that separate our Christianity, since they are based on different criteria on a very, very thorny issue, the very nature of the Messiah.

So I was thinking of a triple division between Chalcedonians (so basically Catholics and Orthodoxy in RL, perhaps with various patriarchs, like one per country?) that believes in the Holy Trinity and the nature of Christ was two, human and divine in one person, conceived by Mary. Then there is Monophysitism, which believes that Christ only had one nature, which was either solely divine (extremist position) or both human and divine (more moderate position) as Christ's human nature was absorbed by its divine one. Lastly we could also have Nestorianism. It argues the opposite, stressing the clear-cut distinction between the human Jesus and the divine Logos/Theotokos, and being generally accused of stressing more the human than the divine nature. And we can always include Arianism I suppose.

In any case, based on their very different Christological positions, the churches could evolve in different paths resulting, over time, in much more differentiated theological positions, as well as a certain degree of animosity amongst them.

In our own world, Chalcedonians dominated in Europe and in what we call nowadays the Maghreb, whereas Monophysites were the majority in pre-Islamic Egypt and parts of the Levant, and Nestorians were important in the so-called Assyrian churches, that is, in the eastern fringes of Byzantium, and had spread (considerably) into Persia as well as Arabia and reaching as far as communities in Central Asia but also in India.

I was wondering how that could work out in Tiandi, that is to say, which areas of Tiandi are/were Christians and how they would be split. I would imagine that Roden, Cosenza as well as Friskland and Banba, based on their geographical location and the association between Italy and Cosenza make more sense as Chalcedonian areas, but I don't know how to divide up the rest, especially since I'm not sure as to which parts of Gungju or other continents are Christian.

Btw, on the question of how to have a more bellicose Christian faith with their own fundamentalists, i saw a few posts back call them Crusaders. It's not a bad name, but personally I prefer the term Soldiers of Christ. Sounds more awesome, and less of a rip off.

Haeseon brought up hate groups on irc and his mentioning of yellow hooded robes made me think for a while regarding race in Tiandi.

I think for certain we should have had pseudoscience regarding race and "scientific racism" during the high stages of Sinju imperialism. In regards to how people look, I don't think people from Sinju would ever have called themselves yellow, because East Asians are not at all yellow. And no, don't try to dispute this point.

Sinju is complicated as it stretches highly from north to south - from up in the Arctic Circle down into the Tropics. There would be a wide range of skin complexions and tones, even within a country, with farmers often being very tan from constant outdoor work, while those who spent most of their time indoors would have lighter skin. Attempts to define "race" would probably be strongest in a period where most of Sinju has recently shifted to industrial, manufacturing based economies with fairly large middle classes. Those attempting to define this would most likely mingle with the educated upper-middle and upper classes.

However, perhaps that isn't so important? After all, there is a fairly wide range of skin complexions among those considered "white" IRL as well, and those who aren't considered "white" often have much lighter skin complexions than those who are.

I thought that perhaps back during this period, people from the Center would have attempted to give races color names beyond just skin complexion. Perhaps East Asians would indeed have been the "yellow race" if someone like the Yellow Emperor was also present in Tianqian mythology, and yellow continued to be a color associated with imperial lines. However, this may become problematic if non-Sinic states such as Jeongmi and Fusen try to distance themselves from Tianqi and create their own unique national myth with the rise of nationalism and the idea of self-determination for different ethnic and linguistic groups. Perhaps there could be separate Jeongmic, Fusenic, and Tianqic races, or they could have been considered branches of a greater "yellow race."

But people and society can attempt to reconcile or choose to ignore contradictions in thought.

White people could be the "red race," as they were often referred to as "red barbarians" in China, Japan, and Korea due to the fact that some European sailors had red hair. "Red people" wouldn't correspond exactly to how "white people" is viewed in the United States today (generally doesn't include Middle Easterners or often Latinxs who are white-passing), as Tiandi does not have the same social structure of Earth. People from Sinju, who would be the ones attempting to define races, would not care about things like religious differences which are often the difference between being white or not (Armenians often considered white but Turks are not). Thus Middle Easterners and North Indians would probably be included in definitions of "red people."

Also, to any potential Japan players:

Religion in Japan was heavily syncretic for most of its recorded history prior to the Meiji Restoration. This meant that indigenous Japanese beliefs mixed and evolved with beliefs such as Buddhism in Japan to the point where they were difficult to remove from one another following Japan's modernization.

The separation of Shinto and Buddhism by the Meiji oligarchy and the creation of State Shinto was a response to Western imperialism and a way to foster a sense of nationalism and identity for a rapidly changing Japan.

I think it'd be cool if in Tiandi, Shinto and Buddhism were never separated. This is what I've done for Fusen.

[Arumdaum]

Regarding Uju, I think it's important to remember that it is different from RL North America in several different ways. This difference largely stems from the fact that Uju is not isolated from the rest of the world, while the Americas were. This results in several different dynamics for Uju and the rest of the world in general.

(Note: Tiandi largely assumes that crops and animals will originate in areas around similar cultures as they did IRL for convenience e.g. rice for the Chinese, maize in Mesoamerica, etc.)

1. The most important implication of this is that Uju will not see 90% of its population wiped out from disease and conquest.
   
   
   1. Diseases which originated from outside of Uju will have a fairly easy time reaching Uju, meaning that Ujun societies would have time to develop resistance to these diseases over a long period of time, like societies in Afro-Eurasia IRL, and not have to deal with having every single deadly disease imaginable simultaneously introduced to them at the same time.
      
   2. There is now the potential for deadly diseases to arise in Uju and then spread to continents such as Jungju and Yoju. However, they would be just another disease that societies would develop resistance to over time such as smallpox and measles. The populations of other continents would not be wiped out by these diseases in the same way that societies in Uju will not be wiped out from diseases from other continents.
2. Uju will have domesticated animals such as horses, camels, pigs, and cows. Aside from disease, this has several important implications as Ujun societies will have a secondary products revolution. They now have animals to plow the fields, provide fertilizer, serve as transportation, serve as pack animals, and provide things like dairy products and wool. This also has several important implications.
   
   
   1. Uju will historically have been able to support a much larger population.
      
   2. Uju would have had larger, more powerful, and more centralized states. Imagine major civilizations as not the Aztecs or the Inca, but rather China, India, and Europe.
      
      
      1. There is the potential for indigenous religions to exist on a large-scale in Uju, and for religions that emerge in Uju to become major world religions.
   3. Pastoral societies are now possible in Uju. Imagine people like the Sioux IRL taking a position similar to the Mongols or other pastoral peoples of the Eurasian steppe.
      
   4. Ujun societies would not be as reliant upon human labor--human sacrifice may not exist later on to the extent in which it did in IRL Mesoamerica?
3. Crops such as maize, cassava, and potatoes would have spread to the rest of the world long before the early modern era.
   
   
   1. In addition to Uju being able to support a much larger population, the rest of the world would also have been able to do as well.

There are a few things we must ask ourselves due to this major diversion from following RL world history. How would an early population boom in the "Old World" have affected the pace of early globalization and later on, industrialization? How would the lack of huge settler colonies for Sinju to extract resources from have affected the development of capitalism and industrialization there? How influential would Uju have been historically on the rest of the world?

I'm imagining an early regional forum in Sinju which would delineate rankings within the international system sometime around 1000s - 1800s. The idea is of an early hierarchical international system that isn't centered around a single massive state but rather based on consensus between states. However, I am unsure of how to make it work exactly.

Why would states care? Why would states adhere to the decisions made? How would such an institution survive major wars between these states?

What I'm thinking is that these somewhat regular conferences would confer legitimacy upon rulers, providing respect both domestically and externally. Perhaps the belief system dominant in Sinju is altered so that these things are really important...

Perhaps this can start as a thing between two or three states but gradually encompasses most states in Sinju. I'm thinking perhaps this is institutionalized into a meeting every ten years to update everything. Host cities can be decided at the end of each meeting. Maybe only countries whose rulers have a certain rank can host? Each conference would last 3 - 6 months.

I'm thinking

Emperor > king > duke??
Or perhaps just emperor > king

The regular movement of a ton of delegates to these host cities can foster economic development and the creation of new trade routes.

I'm thinking of how to incorporate the tributary system into this...

Only emperors can host these meetings and everyone of a lower rank provides tribute while other emperors just chill? Provide tribute to just the emperor that is host? Provide tribute to all emperors?

Emperors would have to give back more in gifts than they are given in tribute to show their "benevolence."

[Tiandi]

Tagging this thread.

[Arumdaum]

https://tiandi.miraheze.org/wiki/Sinju_Congress

Please contribute! And thoughts?