Why do we champion socialism/communism anyway?

[Australian rePublic]

Many left-wing places tend to champion communism. My question is why? Sure, capitalism can be, and often is, taken too far, companies can be above the law, but what we need for that is better regulation, not socialism. Socialism simply doesn't work. Everywhere that's tried socialism has turned itself into a shithole- Russia, under the communists, was a shithole. Sure, it wasn't the most democratic place under the Tsar, but it wasn't that much of a shithole. China- I know what everyone's gonna say "China is capitalist"- Yes, China is less communist now, than it was 30 years ago, but it's also less of a shithole now than it was 30 years ago. Coincidence? Venezuela- Venezuela is a shit hole, at least partially due to socialism. North Korea- shit hole, etc. etc. etc.

Yet, we have Westerners who champion this crap. Almost anyone who has lived in a socialist country will tell you, through their first hand experience, that socialism is shit. Sure, capitalism isn't perfect, and unregulated capitalism causes a lot of problems. In my opinion, the best balance is centrist/left-leaning capitalism, like we have in Australia, the Nordic countries and parts of Europe. And sure, America takes capitalism way, way too far, but I'd rather live in America than any socialist country, and most people would agree. And sure, there are poor people under capitalism, but far fewer than what there are under communism. My question is, why do people champion socialism/communism? It f**king sucks!

[Joshenia]

Simply put the idea of communism itself presents us with a utopia where everyone is equal in wealth and social status but this idea cannot work because of human nature and other factors in its purest form the same way capitalism has never been practiced in its purest form. It is championed because the idea is beautiful and makes people feel good. Well all want good things after all.

[Bombadil]

Simply put the idea of communism itself presents us with a utopia where everyone is equal in wealth and social status but this idea cannot work because of human nature and other factors in its purest form the same way capitalism has never been practiced in its purest form. It is championed because the idea is beautiful and makes people feel good. Well all want good things after all.

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Capitalism doesn't like it very much when you try to regulate it or put restraints on it. Governments are pressured into reducing regulations to keep businesses from moving away and to retain market confidence, commercial news media reflects its interests, and people tend to think short-term and think they're better off if consumer goods are cheaper even if social services are being slashed to permit lower taxes - right up until the minute they end up requiring them. The constant barrage of advertising helps bolster this faulty logic and disguise what is being taken away.

It is no coincidence that social democracy is in a decades-long retreat - without the plausible threat of imminent revolution capital is able to force a gradual slide to the bottom by using its power to tighten and narrow the parameters in which governments can operate.

Thinking you can change capitalism is like thinking you can change an abusive partner. It's about fundamental dynamics of control that are at the core of the relationship.

[-Astoria]

Hold up - which one specifically are you going against?

Also, sounds a little bloggy...

[Miami Shores]

Many left-wing places tend to champion communism. My question is why? Sure, capitalism can be, and often is, taken too far, companies can be above the law, but what we need for that is better regulation, not socialism. Socialism simply doesn't work. Everywhere that's tried socialism has turned itself into a shithole- Russia, under the communists, was a shithole. Sure, it wasn't the most democratic place under the Tsar, but it wasn't that much of a shithole. China- I know what everyone's gonna say "China is capitalist"- Yes, China is less communist now, than it was 30 years ago, but it's also less of a shithole now than it was 30 years ago. Coincidence? Venezuela- Venezuela is a shit hole, at least partially due to socialism. North Korea- shit hole, etc. etc. etc.

Yet, we have Westerners who champion this crap. Almost anyone who has lived in a socialist country will tell you, through their first hand experience, that socialism is shit. Sure, capitalism isn't perfect, and unregulated capitalism causes a lot of problems. In my opinion, the best balance is centrist/left-leaning capitalism, like we have in Australia, the Nordic countries and parts of Europe. And sure, America takes capitalism way, way too far, but I'd rather live in America than any socialist country, and most people would agree. And sure, there are poor people under capitalism, but far fewer than what there are under communism. My question is, why do people champion socialism/communism? It f**king sucks!

Your forgot to mention Cuba as a communist socialist shithole nation, I know from experience. On paper communist socialism is nice, the problem is once all the means of production are owned by the state or the people, their cant be any opposition to anything and it creates an automatic dictatorship.

[Australian rePublic]

Simply put the idea of communism itself presents us with a utopia where everyone is equal in wealth and social status but this idea cannot work because of human nature and other factors in its purest form the same way capitalism has never been practiced in its purest form. It is championed because the idea is beautiful and makes people feel good. Well all want good things after all.

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

The difference is, when democracy, women's rights and the end of slavery were tried in practice, everyone benefited. Contrary to socialism, when socialism was tried, in practice, everything turned to shit. We're not talking hypotheticals, we're talking real results

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Simply put the idea of communism itself presents us with a utopia where everyone is equal in wealth and social status but this idea cannot work because of human nature and other factors in its purest form the same way capitalism has never been practiced in its purest form. It is championed because the idea is beautiful and makes people feel good. Well all want good things after all.

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

We have working cases of democracy. Communism cannot boast something like that.

[Pacomia]

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

The difference is, when democracy, women's rights and the end of slavery were tried in practice, everyone benefited. Contrary to socialism, when socialism was tried, in practice, everything turned to shit. We're not talking hypotheticals, we're talking real results

Socialism worked out alright in Chile before Pinochet came along and ruined it.

[Grand Proudhonia]

Its inevitable and will lead to a much better society in general

[Australian rePublic]

Capitalism doesn't like it very much when you try to regulate it or put restraints on it. Governments are pressured into reducing regulations to keep businesses from moving away and to retain market confidence, commercial news media reflects its interests, and people tend to think short-term and think they're better off if consumer goods are cheaper even if social services are being slashed to permit lower taxes - right up until the minute they end up requiring them. The constant barrage of advertising helps bolster this faulty logic and disguise what is being taken away.

It is no coincidence that social democracy is in a decades-long retreat - without the plausible threat of imminent revolution capital is able to force a gradual slide to the bottom by using its power to tighten and narrow the parameters in which governments can operate.

Which is why a balance between the two systems. Something like what already exists in places like Australia, New Zealand, and many parts of Europe

Many left-wing places tend to champion communism. My question is why? Sure, capitalism can be, and often is, taken too far, companies can be above the law, but what we need for that is better regulation, not socialism. Socialism simply doesn't work. Everywhere that's tried socialism has turned itself into a shithole- Russia, under the communists, was a shithole. Sure, it wasn't the most democratic place under the Tsar, but it wasn't that much of a shithole. China- I know what everyone's gonna say "China is capitalist"- Yes, China is less communist now, than it was 30 years ago, but it's also less of a shithole now than it was 30 years ago. Coincidence? Venezuela- Venezuela is a shit hole, at least partially due to socialism. North Korea- shit hole, etc. etc. etc.

Yet, we have Westerners who champion this crap. Almost anyone who has lived in a socialist country will tell you, through their first hand experience, that socialism is shit. Sure, capitalism isn't perfect, and unregulated capitalism causes a lot of problems. In my opinion, the best balance is centrist/left-leaning capitalism, like we have in Australia, the Nordic countries and parts of Europe. And sure, America takes capitalism way, way too far, but I'd rather live in America than any socialist country, and most people would agree. And sure, there are poor people under capitalism, but far fewer than what there are under communism. My question is, why do people champion socialism/communism? It f**king sucks!

Your forgot to mention Cuba as a communist socialist shithole nation

,
Yes, Cuba too. I'm not going to catalogue the economic systems of every individual country,

I know from experience. On paper communist socialism is nice, the problem is once all the means of production are owned by the state or the people, their cant be any opposition to anything and it creates an automatic dictatorship.

Yes, well, exactly

[Grand Proudhonia]

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

We have working cases of democracy. Communism cannot boast something like that.

We have working cases of feudalism. Capitalism cannot boast something like that.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

We have working cases of democracy. Communism cannot boast something like that.

We have working cases of feudalism. Capitalism cannot boast something like that.

While I see where you're coming from, communism was given numerous tries already. If it was given no tries or only a few, that argument that it simply was not given that opportunity would stand.

[Joshenia]

Simply put the idea of communism itself presents us with a utopia where everyone is equal in wealth and social status but this idea cannot work because of human nature and other factors in its purest form the same way capitalism has never been practiced in its purest form. It is championed because the idea is beautiful and makes people feel good. Well all want good things after all.

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

The way democracy is on paper and the way it is practiced is different. The fallacy and beauty of communism looks good on paper but in practice it is different and this has cost more lives than capitalism (liberal democracy). Human nature prevents us from having a utopia and to be frank another person's utopia is another's dystopia. Communism is capitalists dystopia.

[Aethergestra]

So many threads blaming the left for all their ills. When will it end? Saying socialism doesn’t work and such is just going to make socialists who believe it will work or inevitably fail upset or angry so please stop.Like capitalists and the right-winger types are any better. Allowing tax breaks for rich people or preaching against globalism when globalism is what keeps our modern world going.
Such backwards thinking and traditional thought from conservatives is not progress for fuck’s sake.

[Miami Shores]

All the so called democratic socialist nations and governments of Europe rely on a capitalist economy of small private businesses and large corporations.

[Bombadil]

Well I'm sure they said democracy, women's rights, end of slavery etc., couldn't work because of human nature as well.

The difference is, when democracy, women's rights and the end of slavery were tried in practice, everyone benefited. Contrary to socialism, when socialism was tried, in practice, everything turned to shit. We're not talking hypotheticals, we're talking real results

A number of times in Ancient Greek, Athens democracy was overthrown seen as ruining the city, weakening it and leading to defeat in Sicily and then by the Spartans.

Democracy can be two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

Not that I'm against democracy and I believe it can work in a socialist system regardless, just I wouldn't write off what is essentially a new system built off ideals, that it's been implemented in a poor manner is more to do with the breakdown of colonialism spearheaded by revolutionaries as opposed to an evolving socialist state.

[Grand Proudhonia]

We have working cases of feudalism. Capitalism cannot boast something like that.

While I see where you're coming from, communism was given numerous tries already. If it was given no tries or only a few, that argument that it simply was not given that opportunity would stand.

Marxist thought has really only been applied in a few cases compared to the evolution of Capitalism... Capitalism had growing pains and so is Communism... The difference is that Capitalism was a relatively natural evolution from Feudal systems whilst socialists tend to try to force the system in when society is not ready for it. Communism is as inevitable as capitalism, we can see that with the expansion of automation and technology which will make market systems obsolete...

[Grand Proudhonia]

All the so called democratic socialist nations and governments of Europe rely on a capitalist economy of small private businesses and large corporations.

They are not socialist in any aspect so

[Grand Proudhonia]

So many threads blaming the left for all their ills. When will it end? Saying socialism doesn’t work and such is just going to make socialists who believe it will work or inevitably fail upset or angry so please stop.Like capitalists and the right-winger types are any better. Allowing tax breaks for rich people or preaching against globalism when globalism is what keeps our modern world going.
Such backwards thinking and traditional thought from conservatives is not progress for fuck’s sake.

Srs though we have had like eight of these threads in the past month

[Joshenia]

So many threads blaming the left for all their ills. When will it end? Saying socialism doesn’t work and such is just going to make socialists who believe it will work or inevitably fail upset or angry so please stop.Like capitalists and the right-winger types are any better. Allowing tax breaks for rich people or preaching against globalism when globalism is what keeps our modern world going.
Such backwards thinking and traditional thought from conservatives is not progress for fuck’s sake.

but that is what all sides do, the left blames the right and the right blames the left. The left and the right blame the centre for being indecisive.

[Miami Shores]

All the so called democratic socialist nations and governments of Europe rely on a capitalist economy of small private businesses and large corporations.

They are not socialist in any aspect so

That is my point too, that is why I posted it.

[Australian rePublic]

So many threads blaming the left for all their ills. When will it end? Saying socialism doesn’t work and such is just going to make socialists who believe it will work or inevitably fail upset or angry so please stop.Like capitalists and the right-winger types are any better. Allowing tax breaks for rich people or preaching against globalism when globalism is what keeps our modern world going.
Such backwards thinking and traditional thought from conservatives is not progress for fuck’s sake.

If you had bothered to read a single I said, outside of the thread title, I've already condemned all everything you have stated.

[NoAvailability]

Fairly simple really: Without some socialist aspects, society would suck, therefore some people look at it and go "hey, the more the better, right?"

That, of course, is untrue. While a social democracy, the form we have right now (roughly) is indeed a relatively healthy form of government as long as right-wing-extremists and other... "people" of the same caliber on the other side of the fence are not given quarter, too much socialism will cause the system to collapse for a variety of reasons you can just look up in other countries, much in the same way communism failed. These can be solved with enough infrastructure, technically, but that'd require the infrastructure to be present in the first place.

A LACK of social policies, or otherwise a pure meritocracy, will instead have us regress back to the middle ages, with a small oligarchy ruling over people who have not been economically successful, doubly so now that labor is as dirt-cheap as it is. Anyone not rich can easily be cut out of the equation and replaced with simple trades of rich between rich, as the masses will neither have produce they want nor labor they want, and since the masses will not have the infrastructure necessary to ship or produce advanced goods, they will not rise up into the oligarchy either. You can make a few regulations that would stop this kinda collapse, but well... Then you wouldn't have a pureblooded meritocracy anymore.

My overall assumption is thus that an increase in infrastructure causes people to champion a cause which might become more valid as technology advances as opposed to one which is already hardly sustainable and will only grow worse as time passes. Still, all in all, I believe most forms of society fall short of what we have right now, sooner or later. Which has been extensively tested, by the way: We've had society for some twenty-two thousand years. If you have an argument as for what would be a "better form" which is not based on new technological changes, I'm fairly certain it's been tried, been tested, and crashed and burned spectacularly, as it's not around anymore. Shifting our current model left or right a bit might cause some positive things, but any radical changes will likely turn out for the worse.

[Technoscience Leftwing]

Many left-wing places tend to champion communism. My question is why? Sure, capitalism can be, and often is, taken too far, companies can be above the law, but what we need for that is better regulation, not socialism. Socialism simply doesn't work. Everywhere that's tried socialism has turned itself into a shithole- Russia, under the communists, was a shithole. Sure, it wasn't the most democratic place under the Tsar, but it wasn't that much of a shithole. China- I know what everyone's gonna say "China is capitalist"- Yes, China is less communist now, than it was 30 years ago, but it's also less of a shithole now than it was 30 years ago. Coincidence? Venezuela- Venezuela is a shit hole, at least partially due to socialism. North Korea- shit hole, etc. etc. etc.

Yet, we have Westerners who champion this crap. Almost anyone who has lived in a socialist country will tell you, through their first hand experience, that socialism is shit. Sure, capitalism isn't perfect, and unregulated capitalism causes a lot of problems. In my opinion, the best balance is centrist/left-leaning capitalism, like we have in Australia, the Nordic countries and parts of Europe. And sure, America takes capitalism way, way too far, but I'd rather live in America than any socialist country, and most people would agree. And sure, there are poor people under capitalism, but far fewer than what there are under communism. My question is, why do people champion socialism/communism? It f**king sucks!

* Objections about practical failures were at the first steps of aviation. It was said that vehicles heavier than air, in principle, could not fly up, and this theory was confirmed by a number of aircraft crashes. But the conclusion about the impossibility of aviation was premature, after the first catastrophes it was possible to create successfully flying aircraft.
* The success of socialism depends, according to Marx, on the level of technological development. The collapse was caused by an insufficient level of development of the material and technical base in the twentieth century, that's all. Technologies continue to develop, in the twenty-first century they can give the best result and serve as the basis for successful socialism.
* Sympathy for socialism arises when searching for a caring society; people too weak for participation and victory in fierce competition need it. And there are a lot of such people.
* Compared with many capitalist countries of the "third world", the socialist countries have achieved success in industry, education. Compare Cuba and Haiti. Why do you compare the countries that were initially backward (Russia, China) with the developed flagships of capitalism (USA, Great Britain)? It is necessary to compare the comparable. It is necessary to take into account the different starting positions of these countries. After all, Russia in 1917 and China in 1949 were agrarian countries, and suddenly such an impressive industrial breakthrough after the communists came to power.