by Panggaea » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:38 pm
by Pacomia » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:43 pm
by Beatitas » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:52 pm
Pacomia wrote:I don’t really know as I’ve never really thought about this, but child abuse and sexual abuse are probably the big ones. Hell, I might even forgive murder. Probably not. Maybe.
by Infected Mushroom » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:55 pm
by Rojava Free State » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:58 pm
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:00 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:I’m willing to understand and forgive everything.
Everyone can be understood and helped.
by Nogodia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:06 am
Vaukiai wrote:I am sure that if I say everything the opposite, you don't warn me.
This forum is a jewish dictatorship.
by -Astoria » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:09 am
Rojava Free State wrote:I only forgive people who admit they were wrong.
Jul 21, 2020
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by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:09 am
Nogodia wrote:Beatitas wrote:Can you forgive Hitler and Stalin?
Well, they're dead, and therefore unable to be understood. I think pulling a strawman like "Hitler & Stalin" (don't you forget Mao) was NOT the best way to initiate discussion.
I personally wouldn't forgive the obvious ones that hurt me, and would very much find it difficult to forgive child abuse. Infidelity is also a no go. I already have that contract in my head: Cheat on me, and unless you can justify it (coerced by a threat, were handicapped in a way that couldn't have been avoided/isn't your fault) it's an instant breakup/divorce.
by Cappuccina » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:12 am
Nogodia wrote:Beatitas wrote:Can you forgive Hitler and Stalin?
Well, they're dead, and therefore unable to be understood. I think pulling a strawman like "Hitler & Stalin" (don't you forget Mao) was NOT the best way to initiate discussion.
I personally wouldn't forgive the obvious ones that hurt me, and would very much find it difficult to forgive child abuse. Infidelity is also a no go. I already have that contract in my head: Cheat on me, and unless you can justify it (coerced by a threat, were handicapped in a way that couldn't have been avoided/isn't your fault) it's an instant breakup/divorce.
by Pacomia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:18 am
Beatitas wrote:Pacomia wrote:I don’t really know as I’ve never really thought about this, but child abuse and sexual abuse are probably the big ones. Hell, I might even forgive murder. Probably not. Maybe.
I just have a question for you. Of course, child and sexual abuse is almost unforgivable, but why might you forgive the intentional killing of a living person? When someone dies, he or she will never see the light of day, nor the stars of the heavens. That person has family and friends that love him or her, and he or she loves them too. Murder is the ultimate sin, taking somebody's life out of the body. Who knows what good the person could have done in life?
by Cappuccina » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:21 am
Pacomia wrote:Beatitas wrote:I just have a question for you. Of course, child and sexual abuse is almost unforgivable, but why might you forgive the intentional killing of a living person? When someone dies, he or she will never see the light of day, nor the stars of the heavens. That person has family and friends that love him or her, and he or she loves them too. Murder is the ultimate sin, taking somebody's life out of the body. Who knows what good the person could have done in life?
Murder is complicated, I think, more so than abuse. Oftentimes murderers have a motive, and sometimes it’s a pretty good motive. Obviously I don’t condone the killing of people, but I actually think I may find it easier to forgive- or at least understand- than physical abuse.
Also, I don’t believe in sins. I don’t think anything is intrinsically good or bad, virtue or sin.
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:23 am
Pacomia wrote:Beatitas wrote:I just have a question for you. Of course, child and sexual abuse is almost unforgivable, but why might you forgive the intentional killing of a living person? When someone dies, he or she will never see the light of day, nor the stars of the heavens. That person has family and friends that love him or her, and he or she loves them too. Murder is the ultimate sin, taking somebody's life out of the body. Who knows what good the person could have done in life?
Murder is complicated, I think, more so than abuse. Oftentimes murderers have a motive, and sometimes it’s a pretty good motive. Obviously I don’t condone the killing of people, but I actually think I may find it easier to forgive- or at least understand- than physical abuse.
Also, I don’t believe in sins. I don’t think anything is intrinsically good or bad, virtue or sin.
by Infected Mushroom » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:25 am
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:28 am
by Pacomia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:32 am
Beatitas wrote:Pacomia wrote:Murder is complicated, I think, more so than abuse. Oftentimes murderers have a motive, and sometimes it’s a pretty good motive. Obviously I don’t condone the killing of people, but I actually think I may find it easier to forgive- or at least understand- than physical abuse.
Also, I don’t believe in sins. I don’t think anything is intrinsically good or bad, virtue or sin.
That's an interesting stand. My question though, is why it's easier to forgive.
I'm sorry for using the word "sin". I come from a religious background. By saying that nothing is intrinsically bad or good, then is what you're saying is that morality is subjective?
by Cappuccina » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:34 am
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:37 am
Pacomia wrote:Beatitas wrote:That's an interesting stand. My question though, is why it's easier to forgive.
I'm sorry for using the word "sin". I come from a religious background. By saying that nothing is intrinsically bad or good, then is what you're saying is that morality is subjective?
Yeah, I guess so. To the people that did 9/11, they were doing the world a service and saw it as a good thing. To the Nazis, the Holocaust was also a good thing. Different people see different things as good, morality isn’t objective. Of course, if society in general sees something as good or bad, it really just becomes good or bad, which is why it’s generally accepted that 9/11 and the Holocaust were bad. But some people will always disagree.
by Pacomia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:39 am
Beatitas wrote:Pacomia wrote:Yeah, I guess so. To the people that did 9/11, they were doing the world a service and saw it as a good thing. To the Nazis, the Holocaust was also a good thing. Different people see different things as good, morality isn’t objective. Of course, if society in general sees something as good or bad, it really just becomes good or bad, which is why it’s generally accepted that 9/11 and the Holocaust were bad. But some people will always disagree.
All of that sounds right.
But let's get back to the original question. Why is murder easier to forgive sometimes?
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:39 am
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:43 am
Pacomia wrote:Beatitas wrote:All of that sounds right.
But let's get back to the original question. Why is murder easier to forgive sometimes?
I don’t know. Just seems like more of a nuanced thing, you know? It’s really a case-by-case basis. I can think of no instance where sexual abuse and child abuse is forgivable. I can think of some where murder is forgivable- say, as revenge for an equally bad or worse thing- I would forgive someone for murdering a sexual abuser, for example.
by Nogodia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:46 am
Vaukiai wrote:I am sure that if I say everything the opposite, you don't warn me.
This forum is a jewish dictatorship.
by Cappuccina » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:51 am
by Pacomia » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:54 am
Beatitas wrote:Pacomia wrote:I don’t know. Just seems like more of a nuanced thing, you know? It’s really a case-by-case basis. I can think of no instance where sexual abuse and child abuse is forgivable. I can think of some where murder is forgivable- say, as revenge for an equally bad or worse thing- I would forgive someone for murdering a sexual abuser, for example.
When I was reading that, something struck me from something I've heard.
"If fire is fought with fire, the whole world will go up in flames."
Another example: The Red Army on the way to Berlin raped innocent German women. I don't know why exactly, but probably in repercussion for what the Germans did. Did the Soviets do right in your eyes?
by Beatitas » Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:54 am
Nogodia wrote:I'm an atheist, but I always thought about this concept:
If a god is all-knowing, all-good, and all-powerful, it should seek to always do what is good, and do it immediately. For some of us, certain actions are immoral, while others condone or even engage in them. Whether it's smoking, loving a member of the same sex, or eating pork, we believe certain things are subjectively immoral or moral. Murder and stealing are a big deal in that regard. While almost everyone agrees it's bad to take something that doesn't belong to you or take another life, some justify the actions, whether out of necessity, starvation, self-defense, etc.
The idea I had is, what if an all-knowing god had an idea of what was objectively good, and acted with all their power to ensure it happened. Sure, 100% of the human population could say "X is bad", but do we really know it is? Frankly, we can't answer that question.
Just my little shower-thought.
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